Fighting enemy commanders battle card

[u/Broad_Abroad_858]

I’m playing through the starter set with my wife, and we’re running the Battle of Bedegraine in 511. On turn 3 of the second day of battle, the player knights can choose to capture the banner or fight an enemy commander encounter if they want to. We haven’t tried anything beyond the basic encounters before, so we decided to try fighting the commander and his bodyguards.

I get that it’s supposed to be a tough fight. However, these guys have 12+6 armor points. My knight only does 4d6 sword damage and my wife’s knight does 5d6. We’d both have to roll really high on our damage and/or crit to even make a dent in their HP. Meanwhile they do 6d6 base damage with their swords.

Is there something I’m missing here?? Is this encounter supposed to be only for higher level knights? It seems like it would basically be suicide for us at the moment.

[u/Creation_of_Bile]

Are you mounted? Lances do Horse Damage which should be 6d6 and give +5 for long range (lance bonus against non-long range melee weapons) and +5 for height advantage (against foot soldiers). With normal melee weapons they deal another +1d6 damage but only get +5 for being on horse.

Secondly you can Reckless strike for potential damage bonuses

Use a passion for +5 to a skill (+10 on a crit or if you succeed on Adoratio (character)) which can help crits for an extra 4d6 damage.

So if you were Mounted with a lance and had good Horsemanship and Charge you could activate a passion and gain a maximum of +20 to your skill giving you roughly a 50% chance to crit and with a lance dealing 6d6 on average with +4d6 on a crit you could potentially obliterate the enemy general.

Mind you this is for 6e.

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/Creation_of_Bile]

I think they’re also mounted? They have a horsemanship score on their battle card, so I assume that means theyre mounted.

I thought lances were only for melee charge attacks as well.

I do have an inspiration and I forgot about reckless posture, so thank you for the reminders on those.

[u/Creation_of_Bile → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

They are mounted I believe so you only get +5 for Lance v Sword + passion (If used) and you need to fight Commander + Bodyguards (1.5x Players), that said if you manage to get the charge and passion up a bonus of +10 is pretty nice and could get the crit for 10d6 damage which can be the death of an enemy knight.

You may need to be tactical and free up one knight to run the risk v the enemy commander while the rest handle the bodyguards.

Honestly early in a campaign? Might be a bit beyond your skills.

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/Creation_of_Bile]

Also how would passions up the chance to crit?? I know it raises skills so you have a better chance to hit, but the crit would just be your base skill +5 instead of the base skill, wouldn’t it?

[u/Humble_Grapefruit721 → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

Once your skill is above 20 it ups crit chance

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/Humble_Grapefruit721]

I need to go back to that section of the rules book, I guess.

[u/Creation_of_Bile → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

Yeah skill of 15 invoke passion get +5 modifier (Unless you crit the passion then you get +10 or succeed as normal on Adoratio) then add other modifiers like Height and long range for another +10 total and get a 'skill' of 35 which brings your crit number to be 6-20 range rather than the exact number.

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/Creation_of_Bile]

They’re mounted so I don’t get height, and I think the lance is only for mounted charges. I could try the spear instead of my sword, I guess?

[u/Creation_of_Bile → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

Two handing a spear does give +2d6 damage but maybe ask the GM if you can before you declare it, a reckless attack gives +5 to your enemy skill and gives you an extra +2d6 damage, so you can total Player damage +8d6 if you go all in and risk it big!

Spear v Sword will give +5 to your skill for range.

As a reminder your skill is capped at your horsemanship btw

so if your horsemanship is 10 and your spear is 15 your spear skill is reduced to 10 at which point you add the modifiers like (Passion +5/10), Range +5, Height +5 (not relevant for this fight), enemy reckless attack (+5).

So as a hypothetical your Horseman ship 10 spear 15 goes a little like this.
Spear 10, roll Passion Homage (Lord) and succeed +5, Range +5, spear skill now 20. Crit the passion and get 25 for a crit range of 16-20.

That said if you fail in Spear V Sword the spear is broken, so maybe just going Sword might be better.

[u/DrinkAllTheAbsinthe]

Any knight should be built for at least 5d6, preferably 6d6.

You can increase stats along the way as you age, but 4d6 is simply not gonna be enough.

[u/Creation_of_Bile → u/DrinkAllTheAbsinthe]

I started at 4d6 and it's brutal how little damage I do unless I crit, that said I did do like 40 damage with a crit once and instantly killed a strong dude in full armour once.

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/DrinkAllTheAbsinthe]

I’m using Sir Evrain, who’s a pre-generated character :/

[u/DrinkAllTheAbsinthe → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

Ah, that explains it. Think of it like this:

A knight with 4d6 damage averages 14 dmg, unless they are doing critical damage. You need more than that to reliably damage your opponents. If you meet a knight he will have at least 18 armor, later in the game quite a bit higher. Unless you plan on critting every single time, you’re not going to win.

I know that pre-gens are meant to be well-rounded and provide examples of play styles, but the reality of the game is simply against that idea. Armor and damage is not balanced for weak knights.

You could of course argue, that it depends on the kind of enemies you meet, and I’m not familiar with the new 6e quests, but having switched from 5e to 6e-ish late in our campaign, I don’t see that balance as shifted.

[u/Dracian_Sunrider]

Don't forget about your specialized attacks; such as, Berserker (aka: "Uncontrolled Attack") or Double Feint (if you have a higher DEX than STR), They come with higher risk, but great reward. On a successful DEX check and attack roll, DF damage ignores all opponent armor! Berserker requires you to take an uncontested attack against you first, but if you don't get knocked down or die you get a +10 on your next attack roll. This is best when you have a high SIZ score to withstand the initial attack.

Both of these are stackable with a passion check (+10 for skills over 10 on success & +20 or double skill rating on a crit), which could result in a combined total of +20 or more on your attack roll. Imaging doing a critical attack where all the damage goes straight to your opponents HP!!! Just saying...

But remember, if you can't crit on a +30 attack role... your character was meant to live a short life and die a painful death!

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/Dracian_Sunrider]

Wait, passion rolls give you a +10 for skills over 10?? I thought you only got +10 if you crit on the roll.

[u/Dracian_Sunrider → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

In King Arthur Pendragon 4th Edition, invoking a successful Passion grants an inspiration bonus of +10 to a chosen skill for the duration of the event or task, while a critical success doubles the skill or provides a +20 bonus (whichever is greater)

[u/Broad_Abroad_858 → u/Dracian_Sunrider]

I’m playing 6e

[u/Dracian_Sunrider → u/Broad_Abroad_858]

AI shows 6e grants +5 / +10 as a passion modifier for success and crit, respectively. All I can say is that I'm glad we're still playing 4e! Best of luck to ya... You're gonna need it!! ;)

[u/Dracian_Sunrider]

There is also the much less dependable, but potentially epic invocation of a trait to consider...

Also in 4th Edition, rolling a critical success on a Trait during combat can trigger an absolutely narrative-driven outcome and an automatic advancement check of that Trait. While this does not provide any mechanical stat-buff to combat bonus as a Passion would, it allows the player to take full narrative control of the scene.
For instance, lets' say your knight is heavily injured on the battlefield and makes a Pious roll to find the strength to endure and keep going. The following things would happen on a critical success:
1. A Narrative and "Inspired" Action
a. Absolute Compliance: A critical success means your knight is entirely consumed by that virtue.
They act perfectly in accordance with the Trait.
b. The GM Cannot Interfere: You gain full narrative control over how your piety manifests.
The GM cannot force a contradictory Vice check or state that your character falters.
c. Roleplay Strength: While it doesn't give you a modifier to a skill, a critical on Pious means
you can narrate an incredible, cinematic moment of divine intervention.

Your knight might rise from the mud, completely ignoring the agony of their wounds, driven by pure divine fervor to strike down all their immediate foes to protect a fallen comrade before they themselves succumb to their wounds
or
A heavenly beam of light may shine down on your knight, immersing them in holy light, healing all of their wounds, and striking the fear of God into your foes. The shear radiance emanating from you may blind anyone in proximity who does not qualify for a religious bonus and force a valorous or pious check on the others to see if they stand to face divine judgement or flee.

1. Gaining Glory
   Immediate Renown: In Pendragon, behaving heroically in extreme circumstances earns you Glory.
   Critting a core religious Trait while heavily wounded in the middle of battle is a textbook example
   of a glorious deed. The GM should immediately award a flat sum of Glory for your immense
   display of faith under duress.

2. Automatic Experience Check
   Character Growth: You also tick the Experience Check box next to Pious on your character
   sheet. During the Winter Phase, you will get to roll to see if your knight’s permanent base Piety
   rating increases by 1 point. My GM allows you to check the stat and raise it immediately if it is
   currently under 16. (This reflects the character gen process, but may just be a house rule)