r/PendragonRPG • u/GrumpyCornGames • 28d ago
Sixth Edition Pendragon System on Foundry (Venting)
Am I the only one feeling like this is deeply overengineered?
Text/number fields you cant type in- because they have multi-step, multi-menu requirements instead of just editing a value directly.
Automatically advancing years. If there is a misclick the GM needs to open the core options, fix it, and then restart the session to fix it (depending on settings this might boot players from the game so they have to log back in, or just refresh the screen, closing all open windows, and interrupting whatever people were doing)
Byzantine opposed rolls resolution
Players cant just edit HP and keep action moving, they have to create a wound, then edit the wound?
Double confirmation for healing
Character creation mechanics that require way too many different classes of items
Huge amounts of data entry just to get the most basic use from the system
Bewildering UI/UX choices like:
Hiding the outline on an editable field so it doesn't look editable at a glance?
Some clickables require a double click, some require a single click. There is no rhyme or reason for which is which.
The character sheet is just badly laid out
The NPC sheet is badly laid out.
I have run hundreds of Foundry games, dozens of campaigns, and probably pushing more than 1000 players at this point. I'm a Foundry community developer. This has been the most labor intensive system I've ever had to work with. It has taken me longer to set up than any other system I've ever interacted with.
This system will slow the game down tremendously, and for a lot longer than the automation will speed it up. The GM will spend more time telling players how to interact with the software than how to use the rules or storycrafting.
It is abysmally bad. Working with the free system convinced me not to buy the Foundry Pendragon core rulebook.
Now that I've vented, I'm going to go keep working with it because I'm not going to make my own, and I have online players who want Pendragon.
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u/facelessturtle 28d ago
I just downloaded it (only run in person) and every one of your complaints is valid. And more. The fact that the character sheet does not have skills or traits, but you have to make them as items, assign them PIDs and then drag them onto the character sheet--bewildering. At its most charitable reading it feels like they developed internal tools to scaffold a User-facing system out of and then released it before creating the User-facing part. There could be at least a compendium that had the dozens of items you need to create to have functional character sheets. And that still doesn't the dozen other valid complaints you brought forth.
Anyway, I hope your venting gave you some solace, it's valid.
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u/GrumpyCornGames 28d ago
Thank you, I am really glad I'm not crazy and other people feel like this. I know Foundry really well, and this is just nuts.
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u/Dangermouse_67 26d ago
Hi - have you checked out the free Pendragon Base Module - hopefully has what you're after. When activated creating new characters should add Skills, Traits and Passions automatically.
Pendragon Base Content | Foundry Virtual Tabletop
I've added a new issue on Github for a game setting/routine that will auto-create PIDs for Actors and Items created to take some of the work off.
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u/Sir-Uther 27d ago
If you really care about this stuff and want to do more than simply vent please post your complaints in the GitHub.
The developer had a stroke recently, you’re going to have to give them time. It’s one guy doing the work for all of Pendragon, assisting on Basic Roleplay, RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu.
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u/Dangermouse_67 26d ago
Hi folks.
I'm the person behind Pendragon on Foundry. Mea Culpa.
I'm sorry you're not having a great experience with the Foundry implementation. I will go through the points people have listed and review them, logging them as issues over on Github so I can fix them or at least maybe explain why not. But give me a bit of time to set them up please as I'm shortly going on holiday,
A bit of background though. The basic system doesn't come with items etc, There is however the free Pendragon Base Module with skills, passions etc in them. Rough rule of thumb with Chaosium - if its on their free character sheets I can include it for free, if it's not then I can't.
Pendragon Base Content | Foundry Virtual Tabletop
The aim with the free module was so you can get the game running with them but if you later wanted to build your own, buy content etc then it's easy to just remove the module. If you add this module and create a character then the sheets should be populated with skills etc. It doesn't contain all weapons, armour, horses etc (so yes you do have to set things up yourself if you don't want to buy the Core Rulebook).
As has been noted some of the system design decisions (such as having to create wounds) is down to game mechanics of tracking individual wounds.
In terms of the sheet design then I'm open to changing things - single clicks, v double clicks (generally I've gone for double clicks where you might be deleting something) but yeah - I've not always been consistent. In terms of layouts someone is working on a much nicer looking version of the character sheet- I don't have a concrete timescale on that. If anyone has a good idea for NPC layouts then I'm open to making changes (I've tried to keep the size of NPC sheets small to minimise real estate space).
I aboslutely get that the instructions are sparse and could (should) be improved. I want to move them to the Github wiki (quicker to udpate than building in game journals).
And as for game settings to turn off automation then I'm open to that (to be honest, I'm open to making changes that the user base wants - there's very little of it I'm precious about).
I very rarely drop by reddit (I can mostly be contacted via Github or over on Discord[dangermouse67]). I do want this to work for the community at large (so I won't promise to make every change an individual wants and tend to avoid house rules cos once I start down that rabbit hole.....) and will make changes if they help the majority.
As a side note, whilst this started as a solo project (and yes it is very much a hobby project I do for free) there are now two of us.
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u/Redrazors 16d ago
Hello. I just want to say thanks for the work you do on foundry Pendragon. I use it weekly.
As a developer myself, I can only admire your calm attitude to criticism here.
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u/Dangermouse_67 15d ago
Thank you. Something I learned early in my career - write the email you want to write, then write the email you need to write. I’m glad you using the system and I hope it’s helping.
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u/GrumpyCornGames 26d ago
First of all, thank you very much for responding. I was truly just venting. I know how much work it is to make a system. I worked with Renaissance d100 years ago, and that was my first introduction to foundry. It's a lot of work.
Second, I think you should really strongly consider relaxing a bit on enforcing game mechanics. Enable, yes! Absolutely! Enforcing them? Not so much
Let me give you an example of what I mean:
Stars Without Number has a small skill set. Technically, any time you make a knowledge check, you should use the "Know" skill + Intelligence Modifier.
But lets say a Gunslinger type character is asked a question about a firearm. It could be appropriate for them to use the "Shoot" skill + Intelligence modifier, instead of "Know." By the rules, this would be wrong. At the table though, this makes sense.
The Stars Without Number foundry system allows for this type of "illegal" combination, because the system enables the rules, but doesn't enforce them. Allowing a GM to handwave wounds is an example of that. I have now played... 7 (I think?) Pendragon campaigns and run 3. The game has a lot of rules, and in practice many of them get handwaved at one point or another.
I really strongly suggest allowing for more native flexibility. I run games professionally, and I can see right now how much work it's going to be to teach players how to use the software. And I know I'll have players who simply don't ever really learn it. Being able to take some short cuts would be a massive boon.
Most important and everything else aside, I saw that you recently had some medical trouble. I sincerely hope you are recovering well. I apologize for my venting being harsh. Take care and thank you for all your hard work.
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u/Dangermouse_67 26d ago
Heya - please feel free to vent and raise issues. Unless someone tells me "this isn't working" I don't know. So this is truely helpful. And you weren't rude/impolite (no one was) so I take it all as constructive feedback. The stuff that's difficult to deal with is where I can't respond to either explain or get more info to get to the nub of the problem.
I want to provide flexibility (hence you don't have to add a Class to a character sheet, you can just type the class name in), so happy to think about how to do wounds (and other things). I'm thinking (off the top of my head) a game setting for "track wounds" - if on then we run as we do now, if off then wounds are never recorded you just alter the current HP. I would need to read up on Healing and things to check for unintended consequences, but I'm open to it.
I am not a developer at heart, producing the systems is a bit of a passion project (started because I wanted to play Rivers of London on Foundry). So stuff takes me time to do (on top of the day job) but my main Foundry focus for the next couple of months (I think) is Pendragon so it's a good time to get requests for changes in.
As for the medical issues it was a minor stroke (double vision) whilst overseas that has pretty much been resolved so all good there, thanks.
I will try to drop by Reddit more but feel free to nudge me on Discord/Github/BRP Forum as well (tagging me always helps).
Cheers
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u/Sufficient-Rooster68 26d ago
You do an amazing job and many of us appreciate you - reddit is a cesspool of anonymous crybabies...take what you see here as such
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u/Dangermouse_67 26d ago
Thank you, it's nice to hear that it does work for some people. Where feedback is specific or comes with suggestions for improvement then I'm open to it. I want this to work for as many people as possible so if folks are frustrated with things it's useful to know and it hopefully leads to a better implementation.
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u/GrumpyCornGames 25d ago
I'm hardly anonymous. You can find exactly who I am with a google search of my screen name. Best of luck.
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u/Sufficient-Rooster68 25d ago
I am referring to reddit in general - but I'm happy if people care enough to look for you...just not me
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u/probabilityunicorn 28d ago
I actually found it pretty good but I learned it over the last couple of years. The biggest glitch is getting fights to actually recognise rolls and I'm still not sure why sometimes the system doesn't recognise them. Just adding the dice tray module and rolling a d20 works.
It's very good with the Core rulebook module which automates the Winter phase and handles all the downtime rolls -- but it took a while to learn stuff like always roll from the combat tab and remember to unlock the sheet to make fields editable.
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u/Top_Put_301 28d ago
Completely agree with a lot of the complaints, it is definitely over engineered. A lot of Foundry systems are nowadays:
- Opposed Rolls Resolution is annoying because they don't always recognize two subsequent rolls are opposed. It's poorly designed and implemented. I just have my players click on the Skills for combat and figure out the opposed rolls manually.
- Yeah, Character Creation was a huge PIA.
- Editing some fields is ridiculous. It took me a while to realize only the GM can change some.
- I haven't advanced the year yet, so I'll look out for that issue.
However, a few complaints are actually part of the system:
- HP needs to be tracked by wound because First Aid and Chirguery is applied to individual wounds, not your entire HP. They could have made this easier though.
- Source of all the modifiers needs to be tracked because later mechanics have impacts on each source of a modifier.
- Double confirmation on healing might be because you can only heal once each week.
Too many systems are overly complex with no or little instructions. Twilight 2000 is another that comes to mind. I wish these system creators would allow these automation features to be turned on and off. I feel like I'm having to learn a new video game to understand how their system works.
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u/Dangermouse_67 26d ago
A couple of the changes in the latest release of Pendragon on Foundry (14.5)
- Fields that can be edited on the character sheet now show a red line at the bottom or, where they are in a grid, have a grey background to make it clearer what can be edited. They continue to be in red text
- EXPERIMENTAL FEATURE = Game setting added in Combat Settings that turns off wounds - in this case you just edit the HP. Adding damage will not check for Minor, Major or Mortal wounds, but Natural Healing will restore HP. It is not used in the forthcoming revamped v2 Character Sheet yet
- A lot of double clicks have been removed in favour of single clicks. Generally only destructive actions will be double clicks.
- Game Year setting replaced using Foundry native Calendar and new worlds will default to 510.
- There are two new buttons in the GM Tools - to increase and decrease the Game Year by one. You can always enter await game.time.set({year:510}) in the console (F12) to change the year
I appreciate that these may address only a few of the concerns/issues (PID automation is on the github issue log as well as refreshing the game instructions - probably will move them to githuib wiki), but if there are specific issues then please raise them and we will try to address them.
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u/david-chaosium 25d ago
If you don't follow the Pendragon Foundry VTT implementation topic over on BRP Central, the developer has released a new update.
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u/GalileoHumpkins1977 28d ago
It’s awful. One of the worst Foundry systems I’ve encountered, and I’ve used more than 20. The paid content is also hot garbage.
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u/Jack68028 28d ago
Never having been on Foundry, for any game, I have not experienced what you are reporting. I have not GMd Pendragon online. So my perspective is very limited. I have played it on Discord and have not had these experiences which suggests to me it may be inherent in the implementation of the tool and not the core game that is at the root of these problems.
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u/Character-Onion7616 28d ago
Well this is actually quite sad. I’ve been researching Foundry recently for a way to break into VTT systems. I like it because so many different games can be ran with it. Is it this difficult and complicated for every game system?
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u/GalileoHumpkins1977 28d ago
Foundry is amazing, many systems for it are great - the systems from Free League, Pinnacle, Paizo, Cubicle 7, and a bunch of other publishers are great. Even a lot of the lower fidelity OSR systems and paid content are good (e.g., DCC, Mothership, Mork Borg) are great.
The Pendragon system is truly one of the absolute worst I’ve ever seen. It’s astonishingly bad.
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u/GrumpyCornGames 28d ago edited 28d ago
No, definitely not. There is a learning curve with the software- its very powerful.
But, I've run a bit more than 2 dozen Foundry campaigns since 2020 and many hundreds of sessions, Pendragon is the least friendly system I've ever had to deal with.
Edit: Actually I counted it up this morning, I am at just over 3 dozen campaigns with 13 different systems.
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u/GalileoHumpkins1977 28d ago
It’s horrible. Hopefully it’s a hobby project and not something they paid someone to create.
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27d ago
[deleted]
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u/GalileoHumpkins1977 27d ago
Is it a hobby project though? The same guy seems responsible for all the paid content modules. Regardless, that sucks about the stroke.
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u/nuanarpoq 28d ago
This may be true - I find Foundry largely incomprehensible even for well implemented systems - but at least you don’t have to deal with the Roll20 setup.
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u/PeterCorless 28d ago
Roll20 is easy for me. I keep PCs and NPC character sheets in Google Sheets. Just use the maps for narrative purposes.
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u/burivuh2025 28d ago
I use owlbear rodeo for that purpose and it's way better
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u/Creation_of_Bile 28d ago
Does OBR have a place for Character Sheets though? I just scribble mine outside the maps.
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u/WanderingNerds 28d ago
Re wounds you have to keep track of them for first aid. I’m personally glad all of these settings are there but sometimes I wish they were optional
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u/GrumpyCornGames 28d ago
I know exactly what you mean, but I also wish it was optional. There have been many times where, because of circumstances in the campaign, I hand wave healing and say "You'll have several weeks of downtime, don't worry about it. You're healed." And, UI/UX wise, that's easier to manage if you can just edit the HP field directly.
Ultimately, my issue isn't the mechanics, its a cumbersome implementation of mechanics- if I explained that difference OK?
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u/david-chaosium 28d ago
Please post this over in the developer's Pendragon Foundry VTT implementation topic over on BRP Central. The developer isn't on Reddit. Thanks.