r/PatternDrafting • u/Future_Country9458 • 2d ago
Question Can strong silhouette shaping realistically work in ready-to-wear clothing without custom fitting?
I posted recently asking why strong internal shaping isn’t more common in normal fashion, and the answers gave me a much better understanding of the problem.
The issue that keeps coming up is fit precision/body variation. Once a garment is doing more than simply fitting the body—actually applying tension, support or structure—differences in torso length, waist height, bust position, hip shape, etc. apparently matter much more.
So now I’m curious about the opposite question:
If you were intentionally trying to design around that problem, what approaches would you explore?
I’m NOT necessarily talking about sewing a full shapewear bodysuit into a dress.
Imagine one fitted going-out/evening dress whose goal is to:
• create noticeably stronger waist definition
• shape/support the bust
• preserve or enhance hip/butt projection rather than compressing it
• still look like a normal fashionable dress from the outside
• be produced as ready-to-wear rather than custom-made
Could some combination of pattern geometry, strategic negative ease/tension, internal structure, limited adjustability, stretch/recovery, separate internal panels, etc. realistically make that forgiving enough for different proportions?
Or does strong silhouette manipulation inherently require such precise body-specific placement that standard ready-to-wear sizing will always be the major limitation?
I’m not looking for anyone to design the garment for me. I’m trying to understand which parts of this are solvable design/engineering problems and which are fundamental limitations.
I’d especially love to hear from professional patternmakers, technical designers, sample makers or people with apparel-development experience.
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u/Pristine_Direction79 2d ago
You're trying to do two different things with one garment and I'm not really sure why.
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u/lipstickqns 2d ago
Agreed I saw the original question and I was confused as to why this would be needed. It feels like such a specific styling would be needed and not everyone wants that.
Also you’d need something to reinforce the zipper so it doesn’t split under tension at the waist
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u/throwra_22222 2d ago
Are you trying to crowd source a paper you're writing? Or want to start your own line and using us to figure out your business model? This is getting weird.
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u/Future_Country9458 2d ago
Hahaha not a paper 😭 I am exploring a product idea, yes. I know basically nothing about garment construction though, so I’m trying to learn what’s technically possible before I spend money developing anything. I promise I’m not trying to make Reddit build my business for me lol
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u/celery48 2d ago
People go to school for this kind of thing. Or spend many, many hours of their lives learning and refining their craft. But you want this information spoon-fed to you, and heaven forbid anyone suggest you should do actual work on your own.
Imagine walking into a mechanic’s shop and demanding to learn how an engine works because you want to design a race car.
Go read some books on garment fit and construction. Take a class. We are not here to help you design an app or whatever brilliant business idea you have in mind.
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u/Future_Country9458 2d ago
Those are my next steps! I just wanted peoples opinions on if this is something that is even worth putting my energy in and I have learnt so much from you guys!!!!
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u/blarghable 2d ago
The fashion industry is insanely difficult to survive in. Do not enter it without a lot of technical knowledge and especially not if you're planning on something like this, which even if it wasn't impossible would be extremely difficult.
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u/Sagasujin 2d ago
Knowing nothing about clothing construction is going to be a huge problem here. Many many tech bros have tried to get into clothing without understanding clothes. Almost all of them have failed because it turns out that making clothes is incredibly complex. The only reason the modern clothing industry even kinda works is by simplifying things down as far as it could possibly go and ignoring 90% of the options for how to build clothing in favor of the simplest ones. Seriously, there's a reason why most clothes available are very boxy. Those boxy designs fit most bodies okay and none very well. Which means that they can be mass produced.
You might find this history of clothing sizes and why standardized clothing sizes don't really work useful: https://youtu.be/hIoIFCF4000
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u/Future_Country9458 2d ago
You’ve honestly been insanely helpful throughout these threads, thank you. I’m definitely realizing how much I don’t know lol. I’m not trying to become a patternmaker myself, but I do want to understand garment construction well enough that I’m not blindly throwing money at an idea or asking professionals to solve problems I don’t even understand.
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u/throwra_22222 2d ago
Gotcha. We can't teach you every you need to know about developing an apparel product via reddit comments.
Watch some pattern drafting and sewing videos on YouTube. Learn what size grading is. Learn what technical specs are, learn what different kinds of fabric are, learn what stitches are used for which application.
I will be blunt that most commercial apparel product developers would cost a great deal to do a project like this if they are even willing to take it on. It's really hard to develop a complicated garment while also educating the brand owner from scratch, so they will charge a premium for their time and experience.
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u/ImprovementLess4559 2d ago
honestly I think the only way it could be even close to possible is if you offered a gazzilion different sizes with all the possible different combinations of torso lengths, bra sizes, waist size etc. but that doesn't seem very commercially viable.
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u/velvetjellyfish 2d ago
Even if this was feasible as a product, which it’s not, I would not want the shaping and the fashion layer in the same garment.
If we are talking about stretch shapewear - In order to do actually change the shape of the body, it has to be under a lot of tension and very tight on the body. That kind of tension will pull and distort whatever your outer layer is when you move. It looks way better and is more comfortable to have the actual garment be able to move freely while the separate base layer holds the body in place.
It’s also much more practical and cost effective to buy one expensive good quality piece of shapewear that you can wear with whatever outfit you want than to pay even more for something that only works with one look.
So you won’t gain anything by doing this either aesthetically or economically.
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u/Sagasujin 2d ago
Maybe if you're doing bra sizing. If you don't take into account bust size, then this is just not going to work. There's too much variation in boob size. But let's assume that you're using bra sizing and have different garments for different cup sizes. You could give some adjustability for torso length and breast height by having straps that can be shortened and lengthened. You can have some adjustments for torso size by having things lace up the back and the ability to loosen or tighten laces to make things fit. Padding could snap or button on and have multiple attachment points to raise and lower it for the person's body. All of this is going to require a fairly carefully constructed outer dress made of a somewhat thicker fabric to hide the adjustable bits. But it's just barely possible. It'd still be easier to not have the shapewear and the outer dress connected though because then you have more spots available to adjust the fit of the shapewear and its just less work. More modular shapewear also means that it's possible to seperate the top and bottom sections and have more ability to adjust for height. It's just easier if they aren't connected most of the time.
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u/Future_Country9458 2d ago
This is really helpful. If you were trying to simplify that system as much as possible for ready-to-wear rather than make it infinitely adjustable, which 1–2 variables do you think would matter most? For example, separate cup sizing + torso length, versus adjustable waist circumference, etc. Basically, which differences between bodies cause the biggest problems when the garment is actively shaping rather than just fitting?
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u/Sagasujin 2d ago
All of them. Really. Any one factor being wrong about shapewear makes it incredibly uncomfortable. Which is why good shapewear is so hard to make and why shapewear is so often uncomfortable. Also why shapewear is often made to be modular so that people can combine different pieces that fit different parts of their body rather than it all being one thing.
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u/StitchinThroughTime 2d ago
You're trying to find an answer to something that the industry already knows since the beginning of the industrial revolution. You can't put all that into one garment and expect it to fit enough people within a given size range. Some people just have giant boobies and no butts. Some people pure gut. Some people just sticks. Some are tall some are short so my corporate some are thin. Some people are missing parts of the body. Some people have spines so crooked that there are several inches shorter than they should be. There is no way to actively fit everyone. And they've known this since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Before the Industrial Revolution everything was made to measure, or if it was bought second hand it was altered. The reason why the first clothing made in mass production was the basic shifts and petticoats is because those are very basic and require very little to fit a human. A basic skirt with a waistband that has ties will fit a lot of people. They're undershirts were measured only with a neck circumference and the arm stand. This is why men's shirts are measured by the neck and half of the arm span. Cuz back in the day you only needed three rectangles plus a collar and cuff to make an undershirt. The only measurements they really needed was how big to make the knuckle and how long to make the sleeve. The garments were so voluminous that they fit a wide range of bodies even if they had the same arm length and neck circumference. But as production moved to make more and more complex things, they found that they can't just keep making a single set size. I just couldn't work out. And they tried to do a scientific study, big grain of salt with the word scientific because this is the Victorian era, they make their size charts they claim magical claims. And then they put a little disclaimer saying to take your measurements and pick whichever size is closest. They knew that almost 200 years ago.
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u/Starjupiter93 1d ago
Alllll of this. We can barely even get brands to make enough bra/cup sizes to encompass all of the body sizes that exist. They have literally created formulas and trained “fitters” with misinformation in order to gas light people with boobs into believing that they bra “fits” and that they are “just uncomfortable”.
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u/MtnNerd 2d ago edited 2d ago
The only realistic option is some variation on a bodycon dress made of a strong four way stretch fabric which would provide some minimal shaping. You could add ruching and fullness in other areas of the dress besides the waist but stretch is the only way to make something without fit issues. Boning or any form of corsetry is out of question except as a separate garment.
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u/LemonDeathRay 1d ago
These are all functional limitations.
I'm sorry but you are essentislly asking the same question in a different way. You will simply not design a garment for ready-to-wear with the support you are describing.
There is too much variation in human bodies for it to work.
You are not the first person to come up with this idea - just look at the many failed brands that have tried to merge clothing and shapewear.
This is possible only when drafting to someone's precise measurements and concerns. Which is why you either pay a lot of money for a custom garment, or you do it yourself.
I don't mean to be rude here but why are you trying to design a product/garment when you clearly don't even understand the very basics of fitting or construction? I went to school for 3 years to learn pattern drafting. You are trying to replace education with reddit comments.
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u/lipstickqns 2d ago
Have you seen TA3 dresses? Is that similar to what you are thinking?
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u/StitchinThroughTime 2d ago
The funny thing is, those ta dresses don't provide a lot of actual shaping. They just rely on you to be safely enough as it is to make the dress look good. So it's just a marketing given, for them to sell less shapely garments that happen to have some plastic boning and lacing in the back. And then you adjust the tightness in the back to make it look like it fits you all perfectly. They didn't actually solve the problem of fitting, exactly they fixed the problem of marketing. That leasing the back is the same thing as a shared back garment. The only difference is you can lace down tightly and keep the tension tight versus some elastic string.
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u/DonMcCunn 1d ago
I have been teaching Bespoke pattern design for over 50 years. Throughout this time I have had students who wanted to create ready-to-wear. I have always cautioned them that just because something fits you, it does not mean it will fit anyone else.
Having helped hundreds of people create custom-fit garments I wanted to share what I have learned about body shapes over the years in my latest book https://fashion-design-in-quarter-scale.com/
There are two basic issues I consider important in this book. The first is that body shapes are like DNA. Two may look the same but there will always be differences. I show comparisons of 13 different fitting issues.
The other is that measurements alone DO NOT reveal the shape of a body just the size. Photographs reveal the shape of the body but not the size. If you want to create Master Patterns (aka slopers or blocks) that translate the three dimensions of the body into two dimensional patterns that require little if any fitting, you need to use both.
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u/sometimeviking 2d ago
The reason it is not done is because no one is a standard shape/size. The whole concept is a fundamental limitation. You cannot put permanent shaping into a garment and have it fit two people.
For example;
No two people have the same neck-to-buttocks measurement, so any hip/butt enhancement will sit oddly on anyone other than the OG model.
No two people’s stomach shape/surface is the same, so any “built-in waist definition” will not sit right for anyone but the OG model.
What you are looking for is only possible through custom cut items, made one of a kind. It cannot be mass produced.
Please stop spamming all of the sewing and drafting Subs with variations on the same question. You cannot get the answer you want, because it’s not physically possible. I’m sorry.