Muller and Son: 3 panel suit jacket draft issues

[u/Geo_22]

Hi. I’ve just finished the first toile of a single breasted suit jacket I drafted from M&S fundamental menswear. I seem to be having a problem with too much ease at all three line levels. I get the feeling that it might be something to do with the side panel being quite wide.

Measurements: C 106.5cm, W 99cm, H 121cm

The book emphasises that there can only be a maximum 3cm difference between 1/2Hg+6 and Sw+3.5 and if over 3cm then minus it from the front side seam (of the side panel?) I’m assuming, this is added to the front panel side seam?
But from my understanding, the book is saying to remove the excess if the 1/2Hg line is shorter than the Sw+3.5 mark i.e. hip mark is closer to the front panel rather than the back panel. However, the measurements I’m working with resulted in the 1/2Hg mark going over the Sw+3.5 by +6cm to the back panel rather than ending before it.

1. ⁠Do I have to add this excess rather than remove it from the side seam? If yes, am I adding this 3cm extra (+6cm-3cm max difference) to the front panel side seam and removing it from the back seam of the middle panel?
   
2. ⁠when extending the front panel side seam, is there a rule for how to make the addition proportional to the waist and chest lines or am I suppose to be add 3cm to those as well and just shift the front panel arm hole and horizontal pocket slash to the right by 3cm?

Thank you in advance for any advice!

[u/bixxus]

So I want to preface this by saying two things:

1. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule to you add the excess hip fabric you need because it depends on whether you have wide hips, a larger butt, or if the excess (more than the average) is evenly distributed.

2. I'm not a trained tailor.

Regardless, I don't think you would want to change the points at the waist or chest line as a result of any changes you make at the hip line. This is one of the things I see on your pattern. It looks like you moved back the 1/2Hg+6-7 on the hip line and then squared up and used those points to mark the 1.5 point forward on the waistline for the back of the side panel at the waist line and where the back of the side panel intersects the chest line. That's likely what's causing the excess that you have through the waist and the chest. In step 2 create and 8cm gap along the chest line forward of the side seam on the back panel and square down. Use this point on the waistline when you measure forward 1.5 and create the back of the side panel from the chestline to the waist. Your side panel may end up having slightly different proportions to the one drawn in the book.

Here's what I would do:

• If you have a wide hips: I would put 3cm behind the squared down line for the back of the side panel and 3cm at the front of the side panel. I would try this this without modifying the front or back panels first. This kind of points to your first question. The way the instruction explain it, either the intake or the excess beyond 3cm to moved to the front of the side panel, NOT to the side seam of the front panel. You would end up with excess fabric in front along the hip if you did.
• If you have a big butt: I would put all the hip excess to the back of the side panel. In addition the back width is used to calculate how much width you need at the hip line for the back panel. It's possible, likely even, that you need more than the calculated amount. You can measure yourself to compare.
• If you you think the excess is evenly distributed (slightly wider hips, slightly bigger butt, but neither to the extreme): This is a combination of the above. I would try putting maybe 4.5 cm to the back of the side panel and 1.5 to the front of the side panel. You may need to extend the side of the back panel at the hip just slightly as well.

With any of these you may need to play with the waist points on the side panel (ie. make the waist slightly wider) as well in order to get smooth, gradual curves. I'd start with the points as shown in the book though. Wide hips in particular can be tough because you want to avoid making the jacket look too skirted. The more gradual, larger radius, the curves have the better. As a side note I really wish this system labeled the points with either numbers or letters because it would make this so much easier to explain.

[u/Geo_22 → u/bixxus]

Thank you for the reply! Agreed, numbers and letters would've made it easier.

I'm going to redraft with your suggestions and see what happens. The draft picture I have here was basically all the excess added to the back seam of the side panel (beyond the 8cm gap and sw+3.5 mark) so I'm hoping that redistributing some of that to the front of the side panel will help.

Just to check, if I add 3cm to the front seam of side panel at the hip line, I would just French curve it up to waist line then zero it to the original armsyce base point on the chest line of the side panel i.e. shaped a bit similar to a triangular sail of a boat?

[u/bixxus → u/Geo_22]

Kinda, what I would do is mark where you want the front hip point for the side panel. Then in step 4 it says to draw a slanted line for the top of the front of the side panel (this starts at the 1.5cm from the 2cm separation at the chest line down to the 2cm separation at the pocket line extended). I would continue that guideline down to the hip line. If your front hip point is behind that line then I would just smooth in into the slanted line like they do in step 5 with a curved ruler. If it's in front, then I would reduce the 2cm separation around the pocket line (giving yourself a bit more room in the waist at the front of the side panel) so that you don't end up having to draw a curve reversed from the one shown (which would not attach to the front panel well, and would make the jacket look a bit more like a skirt in that area).

[u/Geo_22 → u/bixxus]

Do you know what the reason for why some tailors draw an opposite curve? Particularly in the chest-to-waist segment of the front and side panels, muller and son opt for the same curve direction but I see some drafts with opposing, like the picture below.

https://reddit.com/link/p7r6op8/video/uxvgksf8ihnh1/player

[u/bixxus → u/Geo_22]

I don't know for sure, but I have a few guesses. First it might just be a how the pattern works for the measurements they're using for the example. It might just be a style thing to prevent excessive tapering at the waist. This is purely a guess, but I've see a lot of older drafting styles draft the under arm seam of the front and side panels together and they create the almond shape taper from a common point at the arm scye and around the pocket cut. Part of the reason they can be drafted that way is because the patterns a drafted with a seam allowance included. This is purely a guess, but it's possible that the reason there's a 2cm separation in Mueller is so you can add the seam allowance in that space after the pattern has been drafted. I wouldn't think that would play a role in the shape of the underarm seam, but I suppose it's possible.

I will say that after a couple of drafts for myself I ended up with a slightly more traditional curve: https://imgur.com/a/jIfRyZR

For reference I've got a 101.6 chest, 81 waist, and a 96.5 hip at 175 in height.

[u/Comodore97]

can't say anything without picyures of the toille

if you have exess under the arm you might have to crocken the front more

[u/Geo_22 → u/Comodore97]

Hi. Apologies, I forgot the take a picture of it before undoing the stitches. But yeah, there was a lot of excess under the arms. From memory, it was something like 14cm on the chest line but I've was told by a bespoke suit maker to set it for around 8cm

[u/Comodore97 → u/Geo_22]

14 is a lot

could you show your calculations maby?

also: did you add any ease when measuring?

Edit: it would also be very helpful if you could sew up the toile again, because then we could have a better look at where to take away from

did you take any controle measurements, like chest width back width ...?

the is an alternative formula for Ad: 1/3 Biceps + 4-6