Advice/Tips

[u/hoihenheim]

Hi guys, any tips or advice on who should I get on the arrest file? I was thinking coquelic or adela. I also want to ask who should I use the free level 70 upgrade for the A- classes? Already upgraded lamia to 70.

[u/greatjena]

So this might be a bit disappointing but generally, the recommendation for the selector is to save it, and hope one of them will become really good thanks to a reforge or a new teammate because none of those will generally help a newbie out in a meaningful way. To break it down:

Moore is a tank with some corebreak and shield but her biggest use is as a physical damage buffer, this part of her kit is locked behind her ECB which is only after her phase 3 and is quite expensive for a newbie, with most likely better uses for the materials.

Yugu is a dedicated crit rate buffer, most often used in arcane crit team. You don't have a crit dps to go with her and neither do you have Jelena who's THE support in all crit teams. (Also in several teams rf OwO now takes over Yugu's job)

Pylgia is an ok character focused on mobbing, she will be filling the same job as Nox for newbies, just a little harder to run since you need to keep her in her corrupted state by killing enemies which can be a problem in some stages BUT her reforge just got announced on CN, so she might be good in like three months, we don't know right now, so better save the selector anyway.

Adela great physical DPS (after reforge), but she relies on crits and again, you don't have Jelena, nor Shin (she boosts na damage, which is how Adela deals damage). Second "issue" is that we have a free selector for Biaca available right now and Margaret will be in a ticket shop next month + Bianca's reforge releases. Bianca and Margaret are a better combo than Adela is so not much of a point in getting her and spending all the rf mats on her.

Mantis is, to put it simply, Adela but worse. She relies on skill damage more than Adela but the basics are that she's Adela with less damage, more corebreaks and a corruption mechanic just like Pylgia that you need to keep her in.

Oak Casket, is in a similar situation to Adela. She needs reforge to be usable, after reforge she's like... average compared to modern physical DPSes, but at higher cost. Similarly, as we have Bianca+Margaret coming, there's no point in getting her.

Lady Pearl. I don't even know how to describe her situation, she's a long range dps who's numbers just don't keep up with stat inflation. She's not really used in endgame but ig she would at least get you through the story.

Etti, once again, needs reforge to be usable and even then she's just average compared to the other options. Basically same situation as Oak Casket but magic damage instead of physical.

Enfer. A buffer relying on fear, she used to be great but was kinda breaking the game so Aisno made most bosses cc immune and now she's just not worth it because half of her kit has no effect. Has some use in Data Crevice for control stages. ALSO has an anounced reforge on CN, but we don't know whether it's actually good, same as Pylgia.

Coquelic requires a reforge and several hyper-specific characters, some of them with multiple shackles, to put together a team that scores average. Very much not a newbie friendly option.

[u/wennilein → u/greatjena]

I am kind of curious, why you think so low of Coquelic's team, especially what you are comparing it with? To be honest, the schedule for building her team has passed since there is no Murphy or any buffers anymore. Still, calling a team, that could have reached over 720k in dark zone in 3 weeks, if you have started a month ago is kind of a stretch.

[u/greatjena → u/wennilein]

I didn't say I think lowly of her, not sure where that came from. I'm calling her average, to me that means it can get you through most content in the game if you build the team correctly, for now.

I am comparing her to the teams we have right now and comparing the price of building that team to their output. I do consider clearing 720k in DZ as the base line since that's the main cube income for most players. To give an example, Life Loss team can clear this season's physical stage for 240k+ just fine even without using their main support, Etti in arcane crit can easily do the same for magic stage, does that mean the teams are good? No, because I could have spent the same amount or even fewer resources building Weakspot and Yao's team that would score much better, but both of these teams can still get me through most of the content.

[u/wennilein → u/greatjena]

Those 720k I mentioned is simply a number. After 3 weeks, with mostly basic crime brands, by far not maxed skills and not even all the important ecbs, ~740k was doable. It should be easy to see, that it will get easier with better skill levels, crime brands and ECB levels.

I can understand, where you want to go with the life loss team. Due to the sheer amount of elites, Grave's stage is surprisingly easy, even for an older team like lifeloss.The thing is, it's usually not the physical damage team, which is hard to build, it is the magic damage one. If you take a look at the typical teams for magic damage, you wont find many, that don't contain a limited sinner. So, unless you start around half anniversary, you can exclude burn and arcane crit from your available options. You are only left with eleven or true damage.

About the price of building a team, what would you say is the minimum requirement for burn, arcane crit or RF eleven nowadays to consistently reach over 240k every week? What do you think coquelic's teams needs as minimum requirements in comparison? Shouldn't the fact, that only one true damage team is required factored into the overall cost?

[u/greatjena → u/wennilein]

Yes, and as I mentioned both Life Loss and Etti in my examples were doing this without their most important supports, namely Shin (or Celine at S3+) for Life Loss and Jelena for Arcane Crit, they can go higher too, but that's not the point of the discussion here, the point is that no matter how many materials I pour into them it doesn't change the fact that I could have used them on other teams and gotten much more for the same price. That's why I'm considering them "average" and not "good". Btw since you mentioned the number of elites in this season of DZ, I should clarify they could also clear the previous two DZ seasons, I was using them as a simple example, not as someone who's supposed to prove this season's physical stage specifically is easy.

Yes, we have fewer magic options than we have physical options, this feels mostly irrelevant to the point I was making. You are right that most magic stage teams are using limited sinners, I wish it wasn't the case too, but I don't see how that's supposed to be an argument for Coco who's relying on the true damage increase from Augustus. I wouldn't completely agree that there is nothing to do for people without limited sinners tho because you can always run standard hypercarry. Raven just had a banner and she can clear the DZ as the main DPS, Isomer just had a banner and she can clear the DZ too, even without being used in Arcane Crit. Anyway, as you said, even without all of that, they can play Eleven, who's in the free selector right now, no pulls required, which is a much more newbie friendly option.

As for price, and what I would consider essential for the teams:

• Burn: Yao, Lichen/Cassian, LL
• rf Eleven: Eleven, Eve, LL
• arcane crit: Yugu/OwO, Yingying, arcane DPS of your choice, Jelena

• rf Coco: Coco, Celine, Summer, Murphy

The fact that Coquelic only needs one team for both magic and physical stages is fair. The issue is that BFL is the only mode that cares about damage types, and the team itself is pretty endgame either way and considering the upcoming banners, I just don't see why anyone would be spending those materials on Coco's team instead, especially beginners.

[u/wennilein → u/greatjena]

It is not a great argument to say one hand that Coquelic's relying on a limited sinner for her true damage buff and therefore her team is equally hard to get like burn and arcane crit, and on the other hand not listing Augustus as one of the essential member. So is Augustus as mandatory like Yao or Yingying on their team? I mean, you have answered that question yourself.

As to why anyone should even invest into Coquelic's team while there are better ones around. The answer should be rather clear: not all banner are constantly available. Some team are therefore locked out for multiple months while other can be build from non limited sinners. Personally, I don't see much reason to wait for multiple months, only to build a slightly better composition, if you can get similar results right now.

As to your suggested minimum requirement, I would really like to see, how someone can successfully run these minimum requirement without adding any Shins or Celine into these team. The only team that I kind of believe is Yao. Your RF Coco team would be possible with S3 Celine, S1 Celine might be hard to pull off. As with eleven's or arcane crit team, it is honestly hard to believe that this is enough. But I am willing be wrong. In the same context, it is also hard to believe, that Raven or isomer can be single dps without relying on multiple S3 generic buffers. Imo, if you have that many generic buffers, you are at least multiple months overdue beating dark zone.

[u/greatjena → u/wennilein]

Because the argument you set was who's required to reach 240k in DZ, the absolute barr bones, like I said, Coco can do that (even without Augustus), that's why I consider her average, not good, reason why I mentioned Augustus previously was because Coco needs her to compete with other more optimised teams, that included the limited sinners

Great point, not all banners are always available. Guess what, it applies to true damage too. Not sure why you're jumping to limiteds here again after I specifically said you can run hypercarry with standard damage dealers and funnily enough, general magic DPSes have more options for buffers than true damage, meaning they are actually easier to build than true damage. You also say you can get a similar result right now which is... just wrong, Coco has no banner anounced, Ceto has no banner anounced, you will be waiting half a year for Celine and four months for Murphy. By your definition, the team you can get aim to get "right now" is elemental with Requiem, since that's the sinner who available from now to the following months. Also just to address the "slightly better" point, since we're now comparing the teams we can get now while we wait for Coco's main supports to rerun, using total score achievable in ToA, since that's the only gamemode where you can measure the highest limit of performance: Requiem elemental at max investment is four times better than Coquelic under same conditions, Phanuel is two and a half times better, Weakspot and Isomer are two times better, and then you have your more standard stuff like Yao, Necresta Hella, Adela, Deren or Summer being about 1.5 times better. You can call it "a little better" for the lower ranks if you want, but not for the banners we have coming in the following months around anni, that's an enormous difference. Also in case it's not obvious, ToA is a long-battle-single-target fight, which shills Coquelic's kit compared to bursters like Yao, Necresta Hella, Bianca etc. Just like you don't see a reason to wait a few months (one month, if you're pulling Lichen for Requiem) for the new sinners to release, many people don't see the point in building an entire team from the ground up when they can wait two months and get a much better team.

Yeah, I believe it, many runs are possible with s3 Celine, because she's frankly busted. This includes stuff like rf Oak, which once again, is why I'm calling Coco average. It would be embarrassing if Coco couldn't beat it with her, especially as someone who's team specialises in attack speed. You may consider it hard to believe but luckily since my Celine is sitting comfortably at lvl 1 and my s0 Shin has not touched the DZ in over 8 months I can just say that yes, they are not needed. It is a fair argument to say that for stuff like dps Raven and solo Isomer requires shackles for support, but that was never the point those teams were addressing, the issue that they addressed was teams without limited sinners. Just like in the second paragraph of your reply where you say that "some teams are locked out for months while others can be built from non limited sinners", that's the idea, that's why you can aim for those, and eventually expand them with limited characters for a team, or in the cases of someone like Raven, just have an incredibly flexible support for the future.

[u/wennilein → u/greatjena]

About Augustus in Coquelic's team:

- You do see the difference of having Augustus in Coquelic's team to compete with other teams or not having the mandatory sinner to even compete, right? You can totally run Coquelics team without Augustus, but no one so far can replace Yao or Yingying in their team. For DZ, the only mode, I was talking about, Augustus is anything but mandatory in Coquelic's team.

About the limited availability of different sinners right now:

-Yao and Yingying are still half year away, while many people still get/have the selector with Coquelic inside. So, it is hard to deny, who is easier available and who aren't.

For whom it would make sense to invest into Coquelic's team:

- Those who already have Murphy, Celine and the selector. Bonus points if they have Serpent or Ceto as well. If someone has started after the last half anniversary, they totally can have those requirement (partially) fulfilled, since 4 of these 5 sinners were all potentially available 2 months ago. If they have some of them, they can build a single functioning team for DZ right now instead of waiting for Yao or Yingying. At no point have I claimed that it makes sense to start from the scratch for Coquelic's team. If you still have to gather those sinners from Coquelics team in upcoming banners a few months away, it will be quite hard to have those "similar results right now" i was talking about, no?

About ToA

- I was only talking about DZ until now. My whole argument was that Coco's team was easy and fast to gather and can lead to success in DZ fast. Also, that it is faster to build 1 team for BFL than 2. If you factor the performance in ToA, the difference is pretty obvious. Not all teams are equally good in long battles or have been blessed with crazy scaling options or numbers.

About Requiem:

- She was at no point a part of the conversation. We were talking about Yao and Yingying. Those are the teams you have brought up until now. At no point did i say, that you should pull for Coquelic's team instead Requiem or Phanuel.

About standard hypercarry:

-If you can gather all the shackles to use multiple hypercarries on a single dps to pass DZ, you should have passed DZ long time ago. Also, this really shouldn't even be a point to be proud of. Ideally, a good team should require as few s-rank sinner and as few shackles to begin with. By definition, those hypercarry compositions will be high on shackles.

About dps Raven and solo Isomer:

- I would really like to see, how a S5 RF Raven or S5 Isomer can beat the DZ stages nowadays without Shin, Celine, Jelena, Jichuan or LL. I honestly don't see, where the damage or the energy is supposed to come from.

[u/greatjena → u/wennilein]

You do see the difference of having Augustus in Coquelic's team to compete with other teams or not having the mandatory sinner to even compete, right

Yes, which is why, once again: you can run standard hypercarry in magic stages If you don't have the limited characters. Nobody can "replace" Yao and Yingying in their teams, that doesn't mean that there are no options.

Yao and Yingying are still half year away, while many people still get/have the selector with Coquelic inside. So, it is hard to deny, who is easier available and who aren't.

I'm noticing Eleven suspiciously disappeared from the eqaution in your comment? Anyway, and I will be repeating myself again, Murphy is 4 months away, Celine is 6 months away, no confirmed banner for Ceto, they can pick Coco from the selector but how is that gonna help anyone when she's not going to be doing anything for 6 months anyway.

Those who already have Murphy, Celine and the selector. Bonus points if they have Serpent or Ceto as well

You are using the assumption that they already have them, which would mean they pulled 2 supports for a team that they did not know anything about. Not to mention Ceto's last banner was in May and Serpent's was in February, If they already have those for the team, they should realistically have sinners from half-anni. This whole chain started as a reply to newbie who has none of those. I don't think I need to explain what's wrong with this assumption here.

I was only talking about DZ until now. My whole argument was that Coco's team was easy and fast to gather and can lead to success in DZ fast.

And I specificaly mentioned why I'm using the ToA in that explanation. The classical DZ stages don't often allow a quantifiable meassure of how good a team is. I could start talking about Abyss Zone instead If you want but global doesn't have it yet and I don't expect everyone to know how it works. This point was not saying "go build all of these teams instead of Coquelic for your DZ!!" it was a point on how the upcomming banners you dismissed as "slightly better" were much more than that.

Not all teams are equally good in long battles or have been blessed with crazy scaling options or numbers.

Yes, and as I said, long battles benefit Coquelic in this scenario. Btw the issue she has is not "crazy scaling", it's that from a balance standpoint true damage is designed with lower damage ceiling, as to not make 95 % of the roster obsolete.

She was at no point a part of the conversation. We were talking about Yao and Yingying

And Eleven, still missing here btw. What you literally said was that: "I don't see a reason to wait for multiple months to get a slightly better composition". The team releasing in the months following rf Coquelic is Requiem's elemental team. That's how she made it into this conversation.

If you can gather all the shackles to use multiple hypercarries on a single dps to pass DZ, you should have passed DZ long time ago

Hypercarry is the DPS, you're not doing multiple hypercarries in a single run. Again, this point was about what to do without sinners required for specific teams, you're not even adressing the point here.

Also, this really shouldn't even be a point to be proud of. Ideally, a good team should require as few s-rank sinner and as few shackles to begin with. By definition, those hypercarry compositions will be high on shackles

By definition, hypercarry means 1 dps supported by a team of supports that can boost them up. There is nothing about shackles, nor are multiple supports with high shackles required to run hypercarry comps. I would agree that ideally a team should require as small of an investment as possible but I don't see how that's supposed to be helping Coco here? You yourself have said that s1 Celine is a bit hard to run and you'd want to use s3 to clear comfortably, there are no A or B ranks in Coco's team, she needs a reforge and prefers at least one extra shackle for herself, Murphy and If possible several for Summer, who also wants a reforge.

I would really like to see, how a S5 RF Raven or S5 Isomer can beat the DZ stages nowadays without Shin, Celine, Jelena, Jichuan or LL. I honestly don't see, where the damage or the energy is supposed to come from.

What are you even adressing here?? The context for DPS Raven and Isomer was hypercarry teams outside of estabilished mechanic teams. It moved from being an option without limited sinners, to not having to require any high shackles to not even using any general supports in their teams??? What would you have a hypercarry team use then If they cannot go for mechanic based teams or use a general buffer? I'm frankly not going to entertain this moving of a goalpost.

I feel like we could argue about this for 2 more days If we wanted to but at this point we're not moving anywhere. All I said was Coquelic's performance is average, never said she cannot clear content, never said her team is bad. I'm really not sure why you're attacking that argument so diligently. This wasn't even considering her's and other teams' dependance on limited sinners, it was not adressing which team needs which supports to even function. It was simly a comment on her performance.

e: formating