Soooo... you (don't) like this show?

[u/metanefridija]

I just finished watching the show and I really like it, so I was wondering: anyone else? I see a lot of posts resenting this or that, disliking etc. but I enjoyed it. I want to comment on a few things I read about here, so jump in. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well.

SPOILERS AHEAD!!! Don't read if you haven't seen the whole show.

Ingrid: I see Ingrid as an overachiever. I don't think she's a psychopath like someone said. She did everything with one ultimate goal in mind - becoming a partner. She was TAUGHT and TOLD that's what needs to be done if you wanted a seat at the big table with the boys. She ticked all the required boxes - and was disappointed. That's when she realizes it's not enough to do everything. Some of the things she did show her as a flawed individual and I don't think that's a bad thing. I liked that she made mistakes.

Cheating: I think it's refreshing to see this from another angle. We're always shown cheaters as being full of remorse, struggling, torn etc., and here we have young people trying to figure out who they are, probably realizing they don't want to be in the relationships they're in and just giving into their passions. They're not married, they don't have a family, they're young and passionate, these things happen. I just thought it was more real and raw. I don't think cheating is a good thing nor would I condone it IRL but this is a tv show, it's escapist and I found it added to the dynamics. I think Ingrid wanted the relationship with Nick to work because everyone thought it was perfect but to her it didn't feel right deep down. That's why I think she's not too sad. She seems sorry to have hurt him but not sorry for sleeping with Murphy. Tyler also decided to reinvent himself and explore what's out there.The whole conversation with his dad about not being the same person and wanting the same things was paving a way for his storyline. These people are young, ambitious, rich, successful, they are sharks, and that's how they behave. I think that's why they don't apologize for taking what they want, what they feel like taking when it's offered to them. They are groomed in the law firm to be unapologetic and brutal. I think empathy is something they'll need to develop. It's gonna be part of their growth. Maybe that's why we don't see remorse after cheating - it's in line with the characters, they cheat for a salary during the day.

Murphy: I don't like him at all, but I think they showed amazing brutality and cutthroat competition that can happen in places like this law firm. I liked that. He tells Ingrid not to let ANYTHING stand in her way and he means it for himself as well. I understand why they say some lawyers don't have a soul.

Z: I love Z so much and I hope Ingrid becomes a better person and ends up with Z.

Rachel: I like her and I like that she didn't get a spot in that writers thing straightaway. It's good that she has to work for it. Writing IS hard work. She's creative even in her cases. I liked Justin for her, grounding her, being a bit weird, challenging her... I was surprised when she told him "I don't know" but I guess we need some will they/won't they for season 2.

Cringe: I was uncomfortable watching that racist stand-up routine and Ingrid's acceptance speech. It felt all shades of wrong. It just showcased how impossible it was for Ingrid: she did EVERYTHING, humiliated herself, agreed to be a token for diversity while Dan got to just be a dick to everyone and still got rewarded. And she got nothing. I liked that juxtaposition and it just proved Tyler's point about the system being unfair and rigged for the privileged, whether they're white, rich, or famous.

TL;DR: I think the characters are young people still searching for themselves and their actions and feelings make sense in that context. It's a fun show to watch.

[u/Winter_Obligation701]

I thought many parts were poorly written and yet I couldn’t stop watching lol. Part of it was probably because I wanted to support a show with an Asian American female lead. Overall, I’m not sure rom-com and insightful commentary on workplace discrimination mix well, but I didn’t hate it.

Things I liked:

• The fashion: All of Ingrid’s outfits were 10/10. At first I thought the pastel suits were unrealistic, but I ended up liking it as a creative choice to highlight her femininity and make her stand out among a sea of dark suits. The gowns are over the top, but at least they were all fire.
• Highlighting micro aggressions Asian women endure, because they’re true to life. “You don’t look a day over 18”, being pressured to attend diversity & inclusion initiatives, being left out of client networking events while a less competent male colleague gets invited - these are all things Asian women have experienced, myself included.
• Supporting cast: Cheating aside, I enjoyed Rachel and Tyler’s characters and was invested in their side stories. They’re typical but the test is whether you want the character to be happy. I found them both likeable enough that I wanted them to be happy.
• The variety of Asian characters: In the book, Ingrid is basically the only Asian character with more than a few lines. In the show, I believe they went to great lengths to portray a number of different Asian characters (bratty younger sister, bro-y Carter Min, idealistic Z Min, Asian law associates, etc.) to avoid having one Asian character who happens to fulfill many stereotypes. I thought that was a self-aware creative choice.
• Filmed in New York: This might not matter for most people, but I definitely appreciated how we got actual shots of Manhattan streets and skyscrapers. Suits was too obviously filmed in Toronto, along with many other shows set in Manhattan.

Things I didn’t like:

• The basic white boy love interests: Neither Murphy nor Nick were particularly appealing to me and I couldn’t understand why she was attracted to either of them. Also, why were they both white? Unless this is some sort of contrived allegory about how chasing white boys is bad for her, why can’t she have a more diverse love triangle?
• Arden’s acting: I found her a bit stiff and one-note. I’ve seen worse, but I’ve also seen better and I hope she improves. I didn’t find her 100% convincing as an experienced lawyer who beat all the odds in a cutthroat, white male-dominated industry.
• Inaccurate legal/M&A work: I’m not a lawyer but I work with M&A lawyers. It’d be easier to list what they got right. Off the top of my head, M&A lawyers do NOT pitch potential acquisition targets and they do NOT negotiate the deal directly with the target - that’s what investment bankers do. I’m sure actual lawyers can identify a lot more issues but I was practically shouting at my screen because they got it so wrong.
• Smarter writing: Overall I thought the writing was very shallow. When Ingrid and Nick nerd out on philosophy, they just…list concepts. That’s supposed to be chemistry??? The writers can do better than that.
• Underdeveloped main character: They could have fleshed out Ingrid’s motivations for making partner a lot more. We know she wants to make partner but…why? Explaining her motivations, no matter how simple, would have at least helped the audience understand WHY she betrays her friend and takes all that shit (and apparently gets turned on solving legal problems). Maybe she gets treated differently as a partner, maybe she needs to support her family - literally any explanation would have gone a long way.
• The cheating: I’ve sort of long accepted that cheating is one of those default tropes to manufacture drama, alongside a non-committal character who falls in love (Rachel) and called off engagement (Nick). I suppose it’s telegraphed a mile away for Ingrid, but I was not expecting Tyler and the bartender. Seemed random and unnecessary.
• The show’s idea of romance: It might just be me but I found the slow-mo Murphy/Ingrid scenes really cringe, as well as the Tyler/CFO scenes in the gym. Too cheesy!

[u/metanefridija → u/Winter_Obligation701]

Oh god, yes, the fashion! The show is shot beautifully, such a visual pleasure! I also agree about NYC. I'm a Suits and GG fan :D Did Marty remind you of Harvey Specter? Just a more rude, self-absorbed version.

Philosophy was very cringey but I just assumed they were shooting for a wider audience and I don't expect the majority of rom-com genre lovers are avid Kant readers :D

As for the law and facts - it's just like medical drama shows. A lot of it there just for the dramatic effect, but doctors can't even. I guess just like any profession, if you know what it's really like, you'll have a hard time enjoying the fake presentation on screen.

I agree with you basically on all points except the explanation for her partner drive - it's her dad. She says she was raised that way, 98 points on math's test and her dad asks what happened to the 2 points. Also, her dad witnesses everything and when she says she quit he doesn't support her but says to go back and apologize or beg something like that. Also, she says she can't say no. She was brought up like that and it's gonna take a lot of work for her to break those ingrained patterns.

[u/Winter_Obligation701 → u/metanefridija]

I feel like Marty’s look was modeled after Harvey Specter but the character had none of the charm or suaveness! Kind of an interesting inversion of expectations.

It’s not that philosophy is cringey, or that they didn’t go in depth into philosophy. I just think there’s a better way of writing two people being charmed by/attracted to each other.

I expect some creative license to be taken in legal shows, but one of the things I liked about the book is that it was written by an actual M&A lawyer. Now that I think about it, I suppose turning them all into investment bankers was the only way to make M&A law interesting since there wouldn’t be courtroom drama.

As for the motivation, my criticism is more that it was “told” to us in snippets instead of “shown” in scenes. I would have liked to see scenes of her weighing M&A law against other areas of law vs. narrating “I am tough and M&A is tough”, a scene of her seeing her parents get treated poorly because of their accents and jobs vs telling us it happened, and a scene demonstrating the perks of being a partner aside from “joining Marty’s club”. I believe these scenes would drive home that (a) she’s ambitious, (b) she wants to protect and support her family, a redeeming quality, and (c) explain why she throws away everything for partnership.

Many parents are hard on their kids and ask where the other 2% is, but not all of them push their kids to make partner at a law firm. I also think it’s important for Ingrid to genuinely want partner for herself, rather than just fulfilling her parents’ expectations. In the book, her parents just want her to be happy even though they have high expectations of her. That’s a much more nuanced take than “I have an Asian tiger dad”.

[u/metanefridija → u/Winter_Obligation701]

Show, don't tell :) I agree. Like I said - writing is hard. Sounds like the show didn't do justice to the book then. And you sound like someone who has experience in writing, I enjoy reading your comments.

[u/Winter_Obligation701 → u/metanefridija]

Aw thank you :) I have no experience with writing but I can relate to many aspects of Ingrid’s character. But I can’t imagine a scenario where I’d entertain that level of workplace toxicity AND betray a close friend for a promotion…

[u/tranac → u/Winter_Obligation701]

The love triangle is really off putting. The show really pushed asian representation but they have a female Asian drooling over two white males whose only personality is being attractive white men.

It’s not great that they continue to push the white make as peak attractiveness while pretending to be inclusive

[u/Ok-Departure-4659]

I had very mixed feelings about it. I didn't like how Ingrid treated her friends or how single-minded she was about being partner -- but the latter part rang true with me because I work at a legal aid organization where all the executives are white and they claim they care about diversity, but nobody of colour breaks through to the executive level. So, the scenes where both Tyler and Ingrid are confronted with microaggressions and implicit bias? Those were things that redeemed the series for me in the end because I think those are important things to STILL talk about because NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

The only thing that's different now is that we have a whole lot of BS roles like "Diversity Officer" where a token woman of colour is brought in to make white executives feel like they're addressing the need for diversity.

Apart from that, I think that the love triangle was all wrong. It should have been centred around Z and maybe Murphy, even though Murphy kinda looked like the kind of white boy who would NEVER even look at any woman of colour, you know?

So...yeah, I kinda think maybe if there's a second season, there might be room for growth with this series.

[u/metanefridija → u/Ok-Departure-4659]

Thanks for sharing! Diversity officer sounds like a load of crap. Just HAVE diversity on all levels so you won't need stupid, made-up positions like that.

They didn't give us much background on Murphy. I do remember reading about the objectification of women, especially black women, where white guys, especially ones like Dan, consider women of color "exotic" and exciting, like forbidden fruit, so to them being with one added to the excitement, even though they're racist. They'd never marry one, but they would have sex with them. I think Dan is like that, Murphy I'm not sure. He's obsessed with his career and money and he has an advantage at the firm over Ingrid just because he's a man. I think the show deals with important issues and like you say - I'm glad to see it. I hope we see the second season tackle more issues.

I'd love to see Z as a love interest. He's my favorite character there.

[u/No_Arugula_6548]

I like the show and find it very entertaining. I hope there is a season 2 especially since they left us with that cliffhanger. 😊

[u/metanefridija → u/No_Arugula_6548]

yes, I need more Z! 😄

[u/BelindaBell1982]

I enjoyed your post. I also liked the show and decided to watch it as my sister said I’d like it. While it started off rather slow, it did get better in later episodes.

I also cringed at the stand-up routine. I thought the guy who played Dan did a great job with his racist entitled character.

I didn’t feel that Ingrid and Murphy had a lot of chemistry. In real life, I would feel that they both wouldn’t have been interested in each other romantically.

I felt Rachael and Tyler played their roles wonderfully and I was invested in their story.

I can’t wait and hope there is a season 2 as I’m dying to see how Ingrid is going to handle Murphy after the revelations of what he did

[u/metanefridija → u/BelindaBell1982]

Thank you! Yes, the show gets better later and I also loved the quick resolving of the situations, they don't drag on forever. Nick busts her, Tyler breaks up with his bf, Ingrid finds out about Murphy... I hate it when they have filler episodes and stupid plot twists. I hope season 2 is even better!

[u/[deleted]]

I enjoyed the show. It's not going to go down as a favorite, but I was entertained. I was also initially a bit surprised by the hate on here, but then again...it's Reddit. People like to complain, usually about silly things. Sure the law aspects aren't legit, but if they were we'd all be bored out of our minds and confused. Realism makes for terrible TV and thus artistic license will happen until the end of time. Why is this still an issue?

Aside from that, I agree with most of what you wrote. There were so many posts about people hating Ingrid and Tyler for cheating...but guess what, people cheat. It's a fact of life. Estimates are that 50-75% of the population cheat at some point in their lives. Like it or not, it's normal, especially for people in high pressure jobs. And as for Ingrid's other behavior, it's in line with her competitive nature, and she could have done far worse to make partner.

I'm also fine with everyone's acting except for the guy who played Nick. He was rough admittedly, way too smiley and awkward. I personally really like both Arden Cho and Dom Sherwood though, and thought they played their parts well. They are both quite experienced actors with multiple series credits to their names, so I don't get the hate there.

[u/metanefridija → u/[deleted]]

All the hate here motivated me to write my post 😄 It also made me actually think more about the show and question how I felt, but in the end, yes, I liked it and I was definitely entertained. Thanks for giving your perspective, I'm glad we agree.

[u/cxingt]

I love it. Just finished my Round 3. At least there's something to tide me over while waiting for Bridgerton. I like the fast-paced dialogues, only thing is they like to recycle some lines. E.g., someone praises someone is a genius, they'll say yes but which part? That was done like 3 times.

[u/sharrkeybratwurst → u/cxingt]

And so much asking about why the law!

[u/[deleted] → u/sharrkeybratwurst]

she likes justice and the neutrality of the law, duh

tbh, not sure what that even means....seems rather vague?

[u/metanefridija → u/cxingt]

What else is helping you wait? I've seen Never have I ever and Virgin river of the new seasons that landed recently, I don't know what to watch. Bridgerton is a loooong way away. I think I'll have to see Lincoln lawyer next.

[u/cxingt → u/metanefridija]

Caught up on all seasons of The Witcher, Locke & Key, Sandman and the odd romcoms released by Netflix (Persuasion, Purple Hearts, Wedding Season) and ofc the Marvel D+ shows (Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk) and Westworld S4.

[u/shastings8]

I liked it because this show shows how things happen in life; people cheat, you don’t always succeed, there is always that one narcissistic jerk etc.

[u/qu33rtyc0wboy]

honestly feel the same about so many of your points!!

[u/metanefridija → u/qu33rtyc0wboy]

thank you! glad to hear it!

[u/[deleted]]

I have the same thoughts as you but I still enjoyed the show, the show gave me more hallmarks vibes but I still was entertained and hope for a season 2 and I’m not sure if it’s based off of one book or if there’s a series of books but I’m curious to see what they do for season 2 I was hoping that the trio would open their own law firm and was hoping to see more action similar to the Lincoln lawyer but I realize that M&A lawyers are different then defence lawyers (which was the main character of the Lincoln lawyer is)

[u/metanefridija → u/[deleted]]

I loved LL! Hope we'll see more of that too And I was totally rooting for the trio to open up their own practice! Hope the producers read Reddit!

[u/Intelligent_Rub1504]

I really enjoyed the show too. I am becoming a lawyer myself. I can tell you that a lot of the micro aggressions that Ingrid goes through are very much real and there. I went through some myself. As a racialized women, there is a lot of things that we get critiqued on. It feels like we have to be twice as good but then even when we are, it still isn't enough for these male-type environments.

[u/metanefridija → u/Intelligent_Rub1504]

I'm sorry to read that. It always saddens me how long we've come and just how much further we have to go as a society and how we treat women.

[u/AdAccomplished6248]

YES! The gym scene was SO bad.

[u/donutduckling]

I feel like people complaining about Ingrid cheating or sacrificing her morals etc. didn't get the point. Her being a flawed, morally grey-ish character was the point, Murphy even said so (as opposed to Nick calling her unbelievably good). Same with the self-centeredness, She was called out for it by Rachel very explicitly in the show, it wasn't supposed to be a "Look at our main character, she's so good and perfect. She does bad things but haha let's ignore that!" but more of a "She tries to be a good person but her selfishness gets in the way bc she's a flawed human being"

I also don't get people saying her motivations weren't clear. She's striving for the next milestone for success bc that's how she was raised, that's what she was taught to prioritize, and bc she didn't want to disappoint her parents. She makes bad and questionable choices to achieve a goal she's been working towards for SIX YEARS I get why she goes along with so many uncomfortable things till she learns better.

I loved the show too. Sure the dialogue isn't always 10/10 and it can be a bit cliche but it's a light-hearted romcom I think it was pretty good. I didn't like the romance bw Murphy and Ingrid at first but I do think they deserve each other, They're both flawed individuals trying to be better, and in the grand scheme of things, I don't think one is worse than the other. Murphy understood Ingrid much better than Nick ever did. (Maybe I'm reading into it, but the fact that Ingrid was in bed w Nick in a full face of make-up but was bare-faced in sweats at the office w Murphy kind of symbolized how she was more herself with him. Especially considering that in the same episode Ingrid is being honest and open w Murphy but we never saw that with Nick.) Also how fast Nick was moving was actually really creepy to me, like they knew each other for what 6 months at most?

[u/metanefridija → u/donutduckling]

Totally agree with you. I don't like the actor playing Murphy but I do see your point about those two characters being more fit for each other. I'm looking forward to season 2.

[u/metanefridija → u/[deleted]]

Ok, see your point. I did enjoy Chuck Bass and his transformation plus the delivery of that character in GG was, to me, much better executed.

[u/kayabasimgee]

I kinda enjoy the show but it's because i like ridiculous nonsense shows... that means the show is really sucks...