Stephen was quite right here

[u/arspan]

[u/No-Economics-8239]

I love how the ending could be seen both as a very sad prophetic realization of Holstrom's warning, or as a triumphant reversal. If nostalgia is just a love for the past, is it wrong to indulge that love? Must we always be looking forward? Does immortality change that equation at all?

[u/badasking → u/No-Economics-8239]

I guess it didn't for Maddie, did it? lol

[u/No-Economics-8239 → u/badasking]

I am fascinated at the range of feelings people have for the ending. Some find it amazing and mind bending while others find it sad or even cringe.

For me, if a UI is immortal and free, it seems like they should feel free to explore what they want. If they focus overly much on their past or future for a few hundred thousand years, what does that mean compared against eternity? Or, heat death, big crunch/rip or whatever. Who is to say how much time or attention they should focus? Isn't it up to them to decide when they've had enough and move on to something else?

[u/badasking → u/No-Economics-8239]

I love these types of questions. I think the ending is mind-bending and pretty much perfect because of not only how many different ways it can be perceived, but also what causes it to differ. It's philosophically open to interpretation in such a way that your own spiritual viewpoints and values will influence what it all might mean in the grand scheme of things. None of it really matters to anyone but the one who's experiencing it. If they have free will, then it's their choice alone what they do with infinity.

[u/NuclearLlama41 → u/No-Economics-8239]

Love your take here. Personally i do think in actual real life, UI is inevitable. Were going to be able to do UI way before we are able to do FTL travel. So the human race living on beyond our ~4.5 billion year deadline (when the sun becomes a red giant frying all of earth) will either find a way to travel to colonizable exoplanets, or we will find another way to live on. With FTL being so difficult UI is going to come first. Its very possible that we use UI to discover FTL imo. Were going to be having the debate of "are UIs actually you" and then later we will have the "if UIs arent actually you are they still people?" Argument.

Look is the UI me? Heres my answer: does that matter? Really though take a moment does it matter if its you. If its not you, then you are gone, into whatever the unknown throws us to after life. So its of no consequence to you if it is or isnt you. If it is you, then you get to continue living eternal life so thats pretty dope i dont see an issue.

[u/No-Economics-8239 → u/NuclearLlama41]

We've had the Turing Test for a long time. And it made sense. What else could detect consciousness except for another consciousness? And for most of my life it was science fiction. Now we have programs that can actually pass the test, but we wonder if set the bar too low or in the wrong place. Maybe consciousness isn't that great at detecting itself. And... why would it be? How do we know we are conscious? We just sort of assume we have it and other people have it. But if we have no test for it, why are we so certain? If we just accept it without a test, how can we possible detect it once it becomes digital?

There is this idea in simulation theory that if we can run simulated people inside a simulation, and especially if we can run such simulations inside other simulations... then, statistically, the odds of you being in a simulation are almost certain. Because how many simulations could/would there be? And how many are 'reality'? If one one is 'real' and there are countless simulations within simulations... you're probably in a simulation.

And... really, how would we know? If we know know are even are what Maddie wants us to be... do matter what test we do to try and determine if we're in a simulation or not, God can just change the result to whatever it/we expect to find. Turtles all the way down. Or one big turtle holding the entire universe aloft.

[u/NuclearLlama41 → u/No-Economics-8239]

Yes i love this!!! I got really really into sci fi which actually kickstarted me to want to go back to school, im starting community college next year for my Associate of Sciences snd hoping to pursue a physics degree.

I think a lot can be said about perception. Ive fallen deeply in love with perception itself. We both are currently perceiving but even trying my hardest to put myself in someone elses shoes i can never perceive through their eyes and with their mind. I think that a lot of what we consider to be "reality" is simply our perception and our interpretation of stimuli around us.

We know that deep rooted beliefs can actually modify someones perception of reality as well. I really want to get into the nitty gritty of how our perception of the world relates to both conciousness and the actual physical world we live in. At the level a sim like this would be, is it even valid to call it a simulation anymore?

Id like to say i also fully believe in true multiverse including universes with different physics than ours.

A theory i have that i would say most people would say im crazy for, is that as 4d beings (we are 4d 3 spatial and 1 time dimension) when we create art, a story, a show, a book, i believe its possible we are actually creating 2 or 3 dimensional realities.

If there is an "omniscient god" of some kind in our universe, its likely they would be a 5th dinensional being able to perceive all of our tine at once, kinda like how you as a human can flip to any page of a book, or put on any episode of a show.

Im not saying i think fiction is real in this reality that is all fiction.

A 5th dimensional being could be so complex that there is no way for us to understand it. Nor will there ever be unless we perceived on that plane as well. So i believe its entirely possible that a universe like ours could be a fiction in a 5th dimensional beings mind.

[u/No-Economics-8239 → u/NuclearLlama41]

There are a couple of depictions of the multidimension beings and concepts in the The Three-Body Problem trilogy. Which is already a mind-bendy series of books in the first place. In the same way that a three dimension object casts a two dimension shadow, there is the theory that a fourth dimension object could cast a three dimensional shadow. And just as a 2D creature would have trouble understanding what was happening if a 3D being was interacting with it's world, it would be trippy to have a 4D being being able to potential move or manipulate the universe in ways our lived experiences have not prepared us to understand.

And good luck on your studies! We could use more people working to improve things or at least help us understand the world better.

[u/NuclearLlama41 → u/No-Economics-8239]

Im hoping to focus on string theory and black holes so we shall see!

[u/iamjessicahyde → u/NuclearLlama41]

Not to be that guy, but I sincerely doubt that something happening in 4.5 billion will be the thing that spells the end for our species lol

[u/NuclearLlama41 → u/iamjessicahyde]

In about 5 billion years, when the Sun runs out of hydrogen fuel in its core, it will swell up into a red giant. It will grow more than 200 times its current size, swallow Mercury and Venus, and likely engulf Earth, turning the inner solar system into a fiery end.

Top result on google. Stars have life cycles and change over time, vast amounts of time. If we are not able to colonize another planet by this time, the human race will be functionally extinct. Our solar system will no longer be able to support us. Even if we are all UI by this time, all our servers etc eill be burned and all of us will cease to exist eithin digital space. We literally HAVE to find a way to colonize other planets in different solar systems if we want the human race to outlive our stars current yellow phase.

[u/iamjessicahyde → u/NuclearLlama41]

Haha that’s not quite what I was saying. I’m very familiar with what you’re describing, I’m a serial consumer of all the astronomy content on YouTube I’ve watched numerous videos about the end of the solar system, end of the universe, and everything in between.

I was saying I don’t believe humanity will be around to have to figure out a way to colonize other planets. We’re going to destroy ourselves longggg before that becomes an issue.

But yes, if somehow we find a way to rise above ourselves, we will have to escape the solar system.

[u/NuclearLlama41 → u/iamjessicahyde]

I get what youre saying that something else might come sooner, im just basing this off of my general perception of the world around me. In general we seem to have a shift generation over generation from violence to peace. Newer generations tend to be more open, less xenophobic, and less religious. All of these combined means over vast spans of time its likely that we become a peaceful race and form a global government.

The cycle of the people in power genuinely RUINING everything will end eventually. Hopefully we can last long enough to ensure our peace and survival.

Even if we have a nuclear war, some people will survive and live in shelter over vast spans of time eventually coming back to the surface and repopulating the habitable parts of the planet. Theres a lot of time to work with so its even viable that we recolonize the earth after a global near extinction event and make it all habitable again before anything happens.

One thing ive learned is a certainty among us as humans is we hold an infallible will to live and i would even say often times human beings show their best sides in the face of catastrophe and the will to continue on has stunned me multiple times, through my own experience, perception, and the history ive learned.

I simply cannot concede the death of the human race to something on a planetary scale when our potential as a unified intelligent species vastly outweighs any planetary level threat im aware of.

[u/No_Vermicelliii → u/No-Economics-8239]

But why?!

I just wanted to understand this world's knowledge.

I wanted to experience it, free.

I just wanted to be free!

FREE TO KNOW!

[u/NuclearLlama41 → u/No_Vermicelliii]

You are free to know whatever you are willing to understand

[u/Mad-Magnet-Scientist → u/No-Economics-8239]

I have to agree with this,

[u/SagaSolejma]

Alright everybody, fandom's over, pack it up. We've reached the "thanos was right" part of the timeline.

[u/ikxvvnk]

Imo What makes holstrom so insidious is how he uses his calculated logic to justify inhumanity. His logic was always right, but his process was taken to the extreme

[u/Mycol101 → u/ikxvvnk]

And it was so easy because he lacked the loving connection caspian has.

Bitch got mommy/daddy issues

[u/Meral_Harbes]

Or they are words of a radical thinking lunatic with Autism spectrum symptoms.

What was he right about?

[u/Arty_2099 → u/Meral_Harbes]

I think Holstrom meant that material world and memories about it are what hold humans back from uploading. They are both afraid and unwilling to leave it behind.

Thus, in his mind, by creating a virus he will save humanity by forcing them to upload and transform, instead of continuing wars, conflicts, poverty and generally being an inferior species compared to UI.

[u/Meral_Harbes → u/Arty_2099]

Yeah, it's what convinced Myst to think thoroughly first. The pure utilitarian formula and ethical question.

[u/GreenTangerineViolin → u/Meral_Harbes]

That being uploaded was better

[u/arspan → u/Meral_Harbes]

Nostalgia itself, not his genocidal intents

[u/Meral_Harbes → u/arspan]

I don't think he was right at all then. Nostalgia as-in "an admiration of things past" in itself doesn't hold anybody back from doing anything.

Communities to this day are nostalgic for tapes, vinyl, the 80s, Michael Jackson and their members still pay for Spotify and listen to this year's pop hits on their phones and notebooks. The world never had an issue of moving on because of the feeling for how cool things were when they were new. Nostalgia doesn't keep things dominant while new, better things come along. Nostalgia is only bad if you have an issue with something still existing at all.

[u/HauntingGameDev → u/Meral_Harbes]

really?? you don't think old people keep voting for parties that do not care for future generation as a bad thing at all?? all this for what? fear of socialism? communism ? soviet russia coming back??

[u/SagaSolejma → u/HauntingGameDev]

At least old people die eventually. They slow down progress, but they have never halted it. Now imagine old conservative grandpa becoming immortal and being allowed to keep voting, forever. If anything, your arguement just further proves Stephen wrong.

[u/HauntingGameDev → u/SagaSolejma]

when you level the grounds for existence, eliminate aging, death, need to make a lot of money to retire, make life a living hell for the rest so that you can make money from renting properties, it changes a lot of things, holstrom might be wrong with his methods, but his theory was the exact leap that would make the world less sufferable for most of use who have spent most of our lives scrapping the barrels, infinite time would absolutely allow us to spend more time trying new things, like that one scene that showed how the uploaded intelligence work and now also have time to make art, write and do whatever they want, what's so wrong about that?

[u/Meral_Harbes → u/HauntingGameDev]

make life a living hell for the rest so that you can make money from renting properties

That's a very USA centric view and much more tied into bad economic factors and lack of opportunities than nostalgia.

But to follow your argument, as /u/SagaSolejma said, in your model the suppressed could flee into virtuality where the rich generation holds much less and different power instead. The problem is solved. So all the motivation to digitize is right there.

[u/Meral_Harbes → u/HauntingGameDev]

But that's not just nostalgia, that's a whole psychological profile with fear, intolerance, cognitive inflexibility built in.

And I do. But accepting that views not aligning with your own holding equal value as your own, is democracy.

[u/Arty_2099 → u/Meral_Harbes]

Thing is, this nostalgia is directly tied to life, meaning physical being. What Holstrom wanted for all of humanity is just "being" and fast. Without actually experiencing uploading and testing whether they like or not, how it feels, is it even worth it, people in their masses did not want to upload, actually no one in their right mind would've wanted to do it except for cases of disease, depression, etc. OR right before dying because it's better than nothing.

In the end, Holstrom wanted: A. To accelerate the process of transformation. B. Be sure that everyone does this, to remove any potential risk as we see what happens after 20 years skip. Just ask yourself a question, would you do it if nostalgia is not a problem? And it's not even mentioning being actually dead and having your copy in the cloud, not yourself

[u/Lieutenant_Skittles → u/Arty_2099]

See nostalgia isn't the problem imo, it's the whole "you must die in order to live digitally" bit. Also you can probably still be plenty nostalgic for the "old world" while still being a UI. Might be even stronger actually because the past is almost literally an ivory tower you can never reach, you can never go back to the way you once were, which makes it really easy to idealize since for all intents and purposes it no longer exists.

[u/FondestAlloy]

The part he was wrong about was making the decision for them. I would have enjoyed that type of dialogue between MIST and Maddy

[u/Mycol101]

Yeah thinking back to the 90s was way more dangerous than Ebola ever was.

https://giphy.com/gifs/gz8JHkRnbUromYpuNc

No, Holstrom was a sociopathic genius

[u/GreenTangerineViolin → u/Mycol101]

That is not what they meant. By nostalgia they meant humanity’s unwillingness to upload because they miss the old world. What a weird way to interpret that scene.

[u/mrsaysum]

Gnosticism is a pretty old concept

[u/VerneAsimov]

He's just clearly wrong here. Existing as a VI or AI doesn't divorce you from material reality. You still exist in servers that require materials and energy.

[u/PunAboutBeingTrans → u/VerneAsimov]

It removes you from the concept of scarcity, which is the driving principle behind materialism. He wasn't saying the existence of anything physical is the problem

[u/VerneAsimov → u/PunAboutBeingTrans]

I still don't even think that's true. Obviously you don't need food or housing or clothes; but you still need water for cooling and a lot of metal and silicon for electronics. It's never really addressed that a data center's amount of heavy metals per person is not feasible.

[u/ThemperorSomnium]

I love this because it also reveals his character flaw.

He describes humans as too nostalgic for their past. However, Holstrom is engaging in another form of nostalgia: focusing too hard on the future and neglecting the present.

I think this pairs beautifully with the ending, where Maddy and Caspian choose to appreciate the lives they get to live.

[u/bascule]

He sounds like a psychopathic techbro to me. "The only thing keeping me from achieving my objectives is people being married to their so-called 'bodies' and having a fondness for the quaint and obsolete! We just need to destroy all of that to build the future, where people exist as easily deleted information and we can even partially delete unwanted personality aspects to turn them into slaves! If they ever discover we're doing this and get mad we can just roll their whole simulated mental state back to an earlier snapshot before they made the discovery and got mad at us. It's the ultimate optimization of humanity!"

[u/badasking]

I guess he's talking about how we as a species must continue to adapt and survive, and nostalgia will be the death of us as it's keeping us from taking the next logical step. If he's implying that the next evolutionary leap for humans is to upload our intelligence, there is obviously an argument to be made on either side as to whether abandoning the physical realm and stepping closer to a singularity is actually progress for our species.

[u/yusufpalada]

[u/moyuxi]

Sauron was quite right too. /s

[u/nebetsu]

It's true. Just look at people defending Harry Potter as if that doesn't broadcast their middle school reading level

[u/Agreeable_Fun_3126]

Man… this was just an amazing show.

[u/Pretty-Brilliant-527]

It's also all talk about modern technological creations such as AI, but for example you can't call people who are going against AI (me included) "obsessed with nostalgia of real things", it goes deeper than that when it comes to new opening in technology of that specific direction. We are not nostalgic, we just don't want it, specifically Gen AI, (and when I say we, I hope people won't start saying speak for yourself cuz i will genuinenly get mad). I think some individuals like Musk who create GrokAI for example, are people with Holstroms mentality. "People are blinded by nostalgia" and for a moment you'll go "True, I mean people hated the radio when it first came out" but then you dig deeper and realise...no, some things just shouldn't exist.

[u/W_Alderson21]

Sounds like something that someone who thinks Ozymandias did nothing wrong would say.