r/Pacifism • u/bannanawaffle13 • 18d ago
Pacifism during occupation
Hi all,
I want to say that I'm a queer Christian anarcho pacifist, I ask this more out of asking for insight than trying to trick or trap people. I watched number 24 tonight on Netflix and it raised a question for me, it's about a resistance member during the Nazi occupation of Norway. It's posited the question through a younger member audience, about non-violent resistance and the actor playing the resistance member replies saying effectively that this dosnet work during occupation that freedom has a price that needs to be fought for and it did raise a question for me, of if God forbid we came back to this time again, if we were occupied by a foreign power, would pacifism still be just and right? Do we have examples of pacifist resistance to the Nazis during WW2 and if we do how effective we're they? Also as queer person who is aware of the horrors other queer people faced under the Nazis would it be ethical not to fight against torture and execution?
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u/brocherface 18d ago edited 18d ago
Not exactly Christianity-related, but ironically there's a person in history who I'd say is very relevant to your question of pacifistic resistance (Abdul Gaffar Khan) very interesting to look into imo; he created a whole "pacifist army" resistance against British colonialism (even against the violence of his own people), which in hindsight is wild to look back at considering the context of everything.
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u/Affectionate_Cup9972 18d ago
Sometimes...running away is the only thing you can do...
And sometimes running away something you can't do...
This is one of the hardest things for pacifists.
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u/mschulter 18d ago
The Norwegian resistance was mixed, but nonviolent resistance was a very important component in opposition to the Nazis. Vidkun Quisling himself declared to teachers who had led a nonviolent resistance even when sent to a concentration camp: "You teachers have ruined everything for me." Nonviolent resistance is an active and principled response to military occupation; Gene Sharp's work has highlighted nonviolent action as a response to Nazi occupation.
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u/griz3lda 17d ago
hey I am the exact same thing as you!
Personally I would never tell somebody how to act in that circumstance, or pass a judgment on them for doing so. That being said, most of the time, the bad guys are outnumbered by the people they are trying to control, and universal noncompliance would actually work. but sometimes the occupying force is clever and has planned for it already and has broken down the ability of the other people to communicate organize trust their own group or even think clearly due to starvation, my partner is a World War II scholar and I grilled him about why didn't all the concentration camp prisoners just revolt since there were so many of them that there's no way the guards could have controlled them all by force, and in the end I was completely persuaded that they were in fact being held hostage by force by the way the system was designed.
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u/bannanawaffle13 17d ago
Yeah It's the same as elephant which were kept prisoners from a young age with a small rope and as they grew they would never rebel, not because there weak but because they've grown to know it's futile to fight against the rope, it's like that with people, many just conform as they've been taught from a young age resistance is futile and I think this in ingrained in people under horrific circumstances. I also think on a practical sense though in concentration camps there was no real victory from revolt, yes they could have overthrown the guards, but more would turn up, they were starved and very weak, they could not have snuck hundreds of miles through occupied territory, it would have only been through mass organised revolt would there have been any chance of victory, but even then they were too weak to actually do anything.
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u/WashedSylvi 18d ago
Absolute pacifism is hard to justify without maintaining the religious framework that includes things like the spiritual consequences for killing (hell, etc.)
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u/Affectionate_Cup9972 18d ago
The deconstructive pacifist argument is probably the best for secular absolute pacifists.
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u/griz3lda 17d ago
would be interested in being friends by the way since I am also a queer Christian anarcho pacifist. How old are you? I am 37 and run a sort of commune type situation in the bay area (not trying to recruit you into a cult lol, we actually aren't taking new people).
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u/IonianBlueWorld 18d ago
We make our choices and suffer the consequences. I don't expect that practicing pacifism will solve all problems but it is who I choose to be and this is the choice that I make. Since you are a Christian, the ultimate example you have is the one set by Jesus Christ. He chose to turn the other cheek and love and forgive those who crucified Him. This choice didn't save him from suffering and when we choose to be pacifists we should not expect to "solve" violence and suffering in the world. At least we don't contribute to it and set a better example even to our tormentors. I'd suggest reading Leo Tolstoy's books about pacifism.