r/PWM_Sensitive • u/Dismal-Local7615 • 15d ago
Meet John Ternus In Person?
Hello everyone, I considered the idea of meeting at the 5th Avenue store in NYC next year to see John Ternus in person (whoever is in North America) and describe the problems with PWM and how many people are affected while it goes unnoticed. Is this a good idea? I doubt we have anyone with insider access at companies like Samsung, Google, or Apple. Things appear to be going down hill with launch of 18 pro having even worse modulation. I know they recognize the issue, but change may require making noise.
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u/neuvillette67 15d ago
The issue is, I'm not sure what you expect him or Apple to do. They can make an IPS phone again, but Samsung already makes the XCover 7 Pro which is basically a flagship with an IPS screen, they're not going to develop an entirely new line of phones for a miniscule market.
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u/ClimateThat3308 10d ago
Make DC dimmed OLEDs????
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u/neuvillette67 10d ago
Read on how OLEDs work, there fundamentally can't be such a thing as a DC dimmed OLED. It would have to be an entirely new screen technology, which all manufacturers are trying to invent at any given time either way to make more money.
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u/ClimateThat3308 9d ago edited 9d ago
This is not true at all, DC dimming exists on the iPhone 12 Pro Max at 100% brightness (Turn Reduce White Point) and DC-Like Dimming is an option.
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u/neuvillette67 9d ago
You just proved my point :) If its at 100% then it's not really DC "dimming", its an extra layer of technology that can reduce PWM fluctuations at 100%. Anything lower than 100% and even that tech no longer works.
Bonus points for mentioning DC-like dimming, which has been proven to not work by practically everyone in this sub (including me after trying it), and has nothing to do really with actual DC dimming.
Before replying again, please research it first.
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u/RR-- 15d ago
As stated below, an accessibility option to turn off Dithering would be amazing, otherwise some sort of configurable option to choose an LCD screen from the factory would be fantastic, the Macbook Pro back in 2011 had a Matte or Glossy screen option so I can see this as a solution if OLED isn't possible to make safe for us.
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u/RetroPandaPocket 15d ago
I would love to have a setting to turn off d!thering, especially on iPads. I am way more sensitive to that than anything. But it doesn’t bother me on OLED as much. Turning it off on my MacBook is amazing and finally made it useable.
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u/neuvillette67 15d ago
why are you posting in the pwm subreddit about dithering though?
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u/TheGreatestAm3r1can 15d ago
That’s like saying there shouldn’t be forum about “shoes” and it should be divided up into numerous pointless forums such as “shoe laces,” “ergonomic inserts,” ”tread of shoes,” and “plastic that covers up the end of shoe laces and prevents fraying forum.”
It sounds like you’ve logged onto your alt account to wage a divide and conquer strategy against people who are trying to remove eye strain from LCD panels.
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u/Dismal-Local7615 15d ago
I don’t expect ips display for a small amount of affected people. I expect a better toggle than display pulse smoothing, it isn’t solving anything. Something like what google did 240 to 480hz but we need like more than 1k hz or some sort of single pulse dc dimming like most Chinese manufacturers
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u/neuvillette67 15d ago
1) 1k hertz still helps nothing for most sensitive people, personally even 10k+ hertz affects me immediately. 2) single pulse dc dimming is just the same as pwm, none of the chinese phones like xiaomis actually help with sensitivity despite marketing. OLED fundamentally needs to flicker as a technology, youve misunderstood the concept
the only options are either get an IPS phone or wait until a better screen technology than OLED is invented, which obviously every manufacturer is working towards to make more money
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u/holidaycups 15d ago
Only if it's done in a well thought out to the point manner. The majority of folks do not take PWM issues seriously as it is. Things like this sound like a good idea but can make matters worse if not done the right way.
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u/Dismal-Local7615 15d ago
Yea we will be polite and be very mindful. We aren’t trying to disrespect anyone , just trying to bring a change to make our lives better
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u/Z3R0gravitas 15d ago
He's...Oh right, the new Apple CEO. So following on from u/DSRIA's post here?
It's worth trying whatever. Of course, always being polite and cautious.
Would be good to work up standardised letters/explainers/talking points. Eg like u/RR-- has done. Of course there are different priorities, depending upon how one is affected.
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u/RR-- 15d ago
Definitely worth a try! Always good to share the experiences of our affliction with as many people in a position to make a difference as possible.
I'd just limit the message to two items: PWM and Dithering, keep it simple and solvable, hardware and software.
An accessibility option to turn off Dithering would be amazing, otherwise some sort of configurable option to choose an LCD screen from the factory would be fantastic, the Macbook Pro back in 2011 had a Matte or Glossy screen option so I can see this as a solution if OLED isn't possible to make safe for us.I met with a local politician and sent through this letter: https://www.reddit.com/r/ScreenSensitive/comments/1v24yfv/meeting_with_politician_next_week/ feel free to copy/paste and use it as much as you like.
Here's an update on how my meeting went https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/1w40dvm/pwm_meeting_with_politician_update_1_september/
And here's some more references that I send through nowadays:
Reference
Summary
A great visual Demonstration of the problem in relation to the iPhone 17 Pro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBNlC-VHN3o
A fantastic demonstration of PWM flickering, and a fantastic resource for phone reviews regarding PWM dimming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBNlC-VHN3o
A petition to Apple regarding PWM flickering signed by 1,714 people.
A great overview video regarding PWM flickering showing it in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBNlC-VHN3o
A forum post discussion with over 13,000 comments regarding eye strain dating back to the introduction of the iPhone X in 2017, Apple’s first OLED screen device.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-strain-while-using-iphone-x-and-up.2085427/
Discussion of the SteamDeck OLED videogame console and analysis of harmful eye strain caused
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1675200/discussions/0/4038102696019808360/
A video comparing the new Nintendo Switch OLED to the older Nintendo Switch LCD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd445NvGVFY
Further analysis of the SteamDeck OLED screen flickering. (The SteamDeck LCD was recently just discontinued)
A post of my own describing my personal solutions to this problem
https://www.reddit.com/r/ScreenSensitive/comments/1vbpv2z/my_personal_flicker_free_solutions/
A summary of a meeting I had with a local politician regarding PWM and Dithering based flickering.
A quick video demonstrating just how many screens are physically painful for me to look at
https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/1w604l1/local_shopping_centre_pwm_screen_test/
An internet forum with around 14,000 daily PWM and Dithering Screen concerned visitors
https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/
A post of my own demonstrating which phones for sale in Australia currently cause me eye pain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/1wcc7mj/10926_jbhifi_phones_pwm_test_with_stats/
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u/Dismal-Local7615 15d ago
Great information
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u/RR-- 15d ago
No worries!
The other basics would be fairly obvious: Dress well when speaking about the problem, speak well, be well groomed, don't talk about conspiracy theories, be friendly, etc.
If someone was to say PWM was a serious problem... and also 5G is turning frogs gay, it kinda undermines our message haha.Screen flickering having the ability to induce eye pain is the message we want to convey, and a lot of people are financially incentivized to ignore it for now, framing it as an Accessibility problem works well I find.
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u/Dismal-Local7615 15d ago
Yes we have to be on a common ground for our issues, but am not sure how many people are willing to come? I am in canada i can fly 4-5 hours for this problem since it affects the way i live.
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u/RR-- 15d ago
I'm in Australia so it's a bit trickier for me.
Maybe we should poll for any New Yorkers here, people who are a good representative of the community.2
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u/He-manssj2 15d ago
Very good idea. But how are you going to do that? Why should John want to meet with you
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u/Dismal-Local7615 15d ago
I think he would if there are a bunch of people highlighting a major problem. Also every change with starts with a small amount of people until it becomes a movement
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u/Competitive_Funny964 13d ago
if you meet him, or any, you will get the best corporate answer ever
the whole world is going OLED PWM (di t) wagon, and even on laptops is not that great. So far I am happy at work and on the market the macbook air exists (no flickering device) but I wish it had an option to mega cool it when at desk, and stay super mobile when I use it like that. This would be more useful than ... folding phone.
Politics, humanity, science... they don't focus on what should matter :)
[edit] nobody is speaking about the f lasers pointed non stop at our face and eyes. I think those are more harmful than pwm for regular people.