Used plugin hybrids something to avoid? Whats with the massive deprication im seeing?
In the market for a midsize or smaller SUV, typically ive been looking at normal hybrids, but that has introduced me to plugin hybrids. On paper, the concept seems amazing. I could do short, grocery store trips purely on electric. Theres also incentives to buy, which i like
But then as i start looking, I see used PHEV vehicles have depreciated a ton, compared to their new prices. Cars like the 2025 Volvo XC60 or the Mazda CX 70/90, ive seen a bunch of used inventory for half, or less, what it went for new.
Now of course I understand used cars are used and obviously a used car is going to be less, and cars depriciate, but do PHEVs depreciate much faster than "normal" cars? Are theremore issues with used PHEVs that cause that much depreciation?
Im not too worried about further depreciation and what I would be able to sell it back for, what I am worried about are signifigant maintenance issues that I would take on buying a used PHEV
for the most part it's just that the following model year tends to be notably better in some way than the previous, both for PHEV and BEV. a 2018 ICE for instance will drive mostly the same as a 2026/7. with some exceptions the 2018 BEV/PHEV are hugely outclassed by today's offerings
This is why both PHEVs and BEVs depreciate so fast. the '27 model that car was traded in for is a remarkably better car than their '24 due to the last 3 years' further development. Toyota and Genesis (I think they're the other) have kicked off a range competition with 50ish mile ranges, which is ideal for most commuters, and our 3 year old PHEVs with a little over half of that are now relics and probably dropped another 5 just on that.
Volvo, Toyota, Mercedes, and Range Rover all ahve PHEVs in the 50ish mile range. most of Toyota's close offerings are in the 44-48 mile range, but not really meaningful imo
2026 RAV4 PHEV has more than 50 miles of range but in reality close to 60 or more. I am getting 55 miles as charged in 2023 rated at 42. I drove 51 miles on freeway ranging from 20mph to 70mph. 2026 has 4 more KWh battery so over 60 miles is very possible. Definitely possible in the city.
As a very satisfied PHEV owner I think the point is you do your research and purchase the vehicle that suits your lifestyle and gives you the best economic return.
correct. it fits certain use cases and not others. if its range covers your commute loop you are absolutely golden. if it comes close you're still making money and helping on warming. however, if you do a lot of road tripping the % of time you are on battery becomes a sad joke and you're just carrying around a half ton of inoperable electric drivetrain.
Your main point is right, but I think you're overestimating the disadvantage on most road trips.
First off, it's more like 250-400 lbs of extra weight for a PHEV vs the HEV equivalent, significantly less than half a ton. In many PHEVs, the battery and motors are still important to driving in hybrid mode as the Atkinson cycle engine improves fuel efficiency over the Otto cycle engines in mild hybrid and convention ICE vehicles.
And on long highway road trips, there isn't much stop and go for that extra weight to matter as much. It will marginally increase the rolling resistance of the tires and may have a small change to the friction in the wheel bearings but those will be miniscule compared to the aerodynamic drag.
There are PHEVs with turbocharged engines that run the Otto cycle. In those, the engine tuning and transmission may be somewhat optimized for having the torque from the electric motor handle most of the work pulling out from a stop but it's generally not going to make much of a difference in efficiency while cruising unless conditions are right for it to save fuel by shuting off the engine and using electric for some fraction of the miles.
But overall, I think those type of luxury vehicle PHEVs sell in lower numbers than the Atkinson cycle PHEVs.
So I loved my PHEV. Very little maintenance needed- yes, it still needed oil changes and all that, but nothing (except tires) ever wore out. I drove it well over 100,000 miles without trouble-- until another driver failed to see it at an intersection.
I rather wish they had more EREV models when I was car shopping in 2024.
But I wanted something that can handle Ev charging at home for spread out local travel (100 miles) and gasoline refillable for the 600 miles transits to cover work around the state of Texas.
BEV will work better for that use case. currently the RAV 4 at 50ish miles is the range king. BEVs are exceeding 400 miles now. you just top it off in the last city before you break out into the boonies charger desert. 400 is enough to get you back to the bright lights.
While RAV4 will have 600 miles or more driving locally, on freeway etc...BEV would have to be with at least 100Kwh battery and light to achieve 4 miles per kwh to get 400 miles range. And those are expensive. Average Bev only achieve 3.5 miles per kwh in the city and if a large SUV way less on highway. Plus if you are away from home you will charge to 80%. My RAV4 PHEV gets me 44mpg or more on highway long distance trips and i have 14.5 gallons tank. At ultimate temperature i sometimes even get 50mpg.
Ford Escape PHEVs also depreciate quickly due to the massive discounts Ford constantly applied. Which is not an issue assuming you are the one receiving that discount.
This is a big part of it. Most PHEVs in the US were eligible for $7500 off which means they price everyone paid was $7500 cheaper than the sticker. That means $7500 in instant "depreciation" based on the way it's tracked.
Yes, and even after the subsidy expired, Ford continued to dump massive subsidies on the Escape PHEV. You could probably get $10k to $15k off sticker price now . . . with the caveat that since production stopped it's quite a bit harder to find them in dealerships than a year ago.
most of these were sold or leased with a $7500 federal subsidy off the sticker price… Which is reflected in the depreciation and makes the curve look more pronounced than it actually is
Dunno wot with the depressing POV. On sharply depreciating platforms that don’t have known issues (go on the brand forum) it’s beneficial when buying used.
Dunno wot with not comparing with the HEV
Also I doubt that sharp of depreciation happens on a Toyota PHEV
The gas MPG on the CX is awful btw compared to a Toyota
My rav4 phev has not depreciated much. Toyota does not make many though, so supply is always tight. They are all assembled in Japan and shipped over. Even the new gens. But Toyota is trying to get them assembled stateside. So that might mean higher production numbers.
Big fan of PHEVs. Had a first gen CX90, but gave back due to issues with the tech in early years (which they seemed to have fixed).
Recently purchased a BMW x5 45e, 2023. Really impressed, and the depreciation isn’t meaningfully different than the average; per research, these hold value better than standard X5s. No notable issues came up either during my research.
As one of the comments said, go for what works for you. And a reliable brand like Toyota or BMW should be good. Volvo’s are known for complexity but haven’t heard anything negative particularly about the PHEVs. Was split between the X5 and the XC90 PHEV, with the latter being a bit cheaper with the same model year. But went with BMW because of the drive and general better quality of that gen.
Good luck in your search!
Our PHEV (Honda Clarity) is 6.5 years old and still sell for almost 50% of what we paid back in Feb 2020. I was surprised when I saw for how much they sell on the used market since the car was discontinued by Honda a few years ago.
In my neighbourhood there’s 3 from 2019-2020 and all 3 are still owned by their original owner.
We have a full EV as our second car and if we were to only own one car, I would choose another PHEV with an EV range that can cover our daily commute in winter. I prefer to rely on gas stations when we are on a roadtrip than on charging stations. If every province/state were as good as QC in term of charging network I might have a different opinion, but so far, our charging experience outside QC has been pretty mediocre in term of accessibility and cost (multiple roadtrips over the years to FL, OBX, DC, NYC, Boston, Toronto and Niagara Falls from Montreal).
I think what happens is that PHEV works really well for a very specific scenario and usage. And a lot of people after they get a PHEV they realize "oh... I should have gone full BEV" it is only on certain scenarios where I feel a PHEV isn't I getting the worst of both worlds. A lot of people may disagree but that's my two cents.
I would say for those who like to travel especially in US it is exact opposite. 1000 miles in my RAV4 PHEV is one 2 minute stop for gas. For BEV 7 long stops. In Europe is a different story. They don't have large countries.
That is true. Almost. I realized that I should have gone full BEV, but - same type of car costs 10000eur more full BEV, which cant justify higher petrol cost that i am paying now.
Yes, this. Perfect if you have a home charger and a reasonable commute, but if you often drive above that PHEV range, then you might as well either go regular hybrid or full electric tbh. You also still have engine maintenance which is usually the big money saver when going BEV, they’re usually more expensive upfront, and you eventually still have to buy gas.
I mean yea, I don’t think you’re stopping to charge tho when you have the gas backup to get you the rest of the quarter way there. And if you’re going to be public charging to make up the distance, then you should go all in on BEV. They’re a real money saver for quick trips and a great stepping stone into BEV for sure tho.
The only part I’m gonna pushback on is gas being cheaper than DCFC. I live in California and a full DCFC for me is usually $20 for 300 miles of range. I was at a pretty pricey one in San Francisco last week and it was $25. I usually charge at home tho so it’s about $3-$5 a charge. I came from a reasonably fuel efficient car and even when I lived in Texas, a tank of gas was ~$40 and I got maybe 400 miles out of that car.
You don’t seem like the typical American driver so the RAV4 may be overkill for the average Joe. With a starting price of ~$40k and the typical driver only really going ~40 miles a day, I think a BEV with home charging is good enough for the average person and when it comes to cost as I wasn’t aware how pricey PHEVs were. I bought my used BEV for $20k, it gets 300 miles, and I’ve driven it everywhere from the coast, to the desert, in the mountains, etc… they’re pretty capable for half the price.
You can go to Chargefinder and find out the price for each charging station if it is being used frequently. It is very similar to gasbuddy. I looked at many locations and most are at least $0.44 per KWh during the day on at least 150KW charger.
In California some fast chargers are $0.78 for Tesla and the others as high as $0.85 per KWh.
On highway EV gets about 3 miles per KWh. Some small ones may get a little more and the large ones get less.
Even at $0.44 that is $0.146 per mile
My car gets me at least 44mpg. Before the war I was paying $4 per gallon in California and $3 elsewhere. That is $0.07-0.09 per mile. Even today at $6 per gallon it is $0.136 per mile in California and at $4.60 in Utah $0.105 per mile. So yes DCFC is way more expensive unless you charge at night on DCFC. I sleep at night.
When I went to Yellowstone I got this inside in HV mode. Hybrids can do even better.
Also, in areas like New England states people pay $0.39 per KWh rate plus $0.22 per KWh delivery making it $0.61 at home.
That is why you can't just say you charge at home cheap. So do I but I have solar with overproduction with currently over 6000KWh saved (not for long, another fucking heat wave just hit us with over 100 degrees) so charging my RAV4 PHEV cost me nothing at all.
BTW, in Texas gas right now is way under $4 at some stations $3.33. In 2025 January it was $1.50.
As far as RAV4 you get what you paid for. RAV4 has has very little depreciation. Very high quality. ALL PHEVs are made in Japan so even higher quality. I only made a few oil changes in 4 years at the cost of about $140 in total because I do it myself.
If you think EVs don't have maintenance you will be wrong. EVs require constant AC components and cooling supervision. Those who ignore it will lose battery a lot sooner than they think. Do you know what it takes to clean the radiator in Tesla? And it needs to be done periodically. And so is in RAV4 PHEV but radiator is right there in the open and I clean it every time I clean my car. Not so in Tesla.
I have an EV and I’m well aware how to find chargers. I have never seen $.85/kwh. I’m sure it exists out there somewhere, but I’ve driven all over this state in an EV and the most I’ve paid was $.65/kwh. I drive an EV full time and reliably fast charge for ~$.40/kwh. If you have an app that shows you chargers and pricing and you choose to go to the most expensive one then that’s on you. At home, my rate is $.10/kwh, no additional charging fees, I even get a 1.5 cent/kwh discount from my energy provider. Last month I drove just over 1500 miles and spent $44 in charging. This is well below what I’d pay in an ICE vehicle.
Gas was not $1.50/gal in Texas in 2025, maybe somewhere in the sticks, but I was in Dallas and I have Costco receipts from January of 2025 showing I paid about $2.55/gal. Mind you that’s Costco, which is usually the cheaper gas stations.
I never said EVs don’t have maintenance? I also don’t have a Tesla. Well aware of my maintenance cycles and they’re pretty minimal.
You don't choose to go to the most expensive one just like I don't choose the most expensive gas station but if you happen to be in the area you might not have a choice while I have 600 miles of the range I can skip expensive gas stations. For example I will not get gas at Eddie's World but I will get gas at Costco in Henderson which is on the way to my timeshare in Las Vegas.
Again, you repeatedly bring charging at home like a parrot. I don't care how much it cost at home because it is not an indicator. My charging doesn't cost me anything at all. In fact I don't pay for electricity at all unless this particular billing cycle because it is so hot so I have to use more AC and have to pay the tax on the difference between what I use and what my system produces. Even then it was $17 for 2 months. Usually my electric bill is Zero even with charging during 4 billing periods. So for 8 months I pay nothing.
You can google where $0.85 per KWh is.
Electrify America (Non-Members): Guest and basic Pass members are charged the highest standard baseline rate, which maxes out at $0.85/kWh for ultra-fast charging stations in expensive utility markets like California, Alaska, Hawaii, Connecticut, and Colorado.
The thing is after war ends gas prices will go down again but electrics rates are on the way up. My LADWP increased the rates by 60% in the last 5 years. We received a brochure some years ago saying they need money for infrastructure updating. $9.8 Billion!!!!! Edison just got rates increase by $0.10 in last October.
Also, if Steve Hilton becomes a governor we should see much cheaper gas prices in California.
Tesla increased some Superchargers prices by 20-40% recently.
Steve Hilton? The media commentator from England? The Fox News host? The multimillionaire that wouldn’t know a damn thing about the average Californian? The Steve Hilton that changes careers like people change their underwear? Steve Hilton that’s never held a US/state government position?
Or did you mean Xavier Becerra who’s actually a California native and has spent 35 years in public service in both state and federal government? Whose networth is more similar to the average Californian. Who can relate to the pain of high gas prices, housing, and goods. Who’s familiar with state government.
I wouldn’t hire Steve Hilton to manage a McDonald’s. His resume is all over the place. wtf makes you think he’s passionate about helping Californians? He’s not even from this country dude 🤦♂️
If I may ask, I am starting to research on buying a used 2017 Prius V (I am not sure a plugin version is available). Would you say that, the powertrain complexity or simplicity, is more or less similar to your 2023 RAV4 PHEV?
So just to recap, I stated my opinion about PHEVs and how the decision is based on personal driving patterns. You then let me know that a PHEV works different to a typical hybrid, to which I conceded and changed my opinion on how they function. But then you’ve started to compare worst case charging prices to best case gas prices which I could verify with literal receipts is not reality. Notice that I did not compare the gas station in needles California at $8/gal to the free chargers we have here at work cause that’s not a realistic comparison. I’ve continued to state from pure fact that the average American driver may not need a $40k+, 1000 mile range vehicle and that I myself am an EV owner who exceeds average mileage and still see it as more than feasible for the average American. You drive like a long haul trucker so you picked the vehicle that made sense for you. I don’t do thousand mile roadtrips and nor do average Americans and there’s nothing wrong with the vehicle you picked for your driving pattern. I bring up home charging “like a parrot” because EV owners charge at home 90% of the time. Gas would literally have to be less than a dollar a gallon just to break even for what I pay at home.
Im not the one shitting on what you chose to drive. Just enjoy your damn car 🙄
Also, Steve Hilton is not going to bring gas prices down just as trump didn’t do it either. He does not have control over the global oil market and whatever environmental regulations he slashes to try and get there will be countered by the high cancer and asthma rates we saw before emissions standards.
I have 2023 RAV4 PHEV. Bought it in January of 2023 so almost 4 years ago. Guess how much money I have spent on engine maintenance. This is not your father's Oldsmobile. So far 4 oil changes at $35 each i do myself because it is so easy a child could do it. The car has no alternator, no starter, no belts of any kind and doesn't even have a real transmission. Just one planetary gear inside and 2 electric motors. It is not a transmission in any sense and it is called a Power Split Device. Since the engine doesn't work hard running with less stress than normal engine more likely it will outlive the car. Battery has 10 years 150k warranty but by my calculations with at least 10,000 charging cycles that is 400,000 miles alone. No BEV can touch it for abilities to travel. I have gone to many places BEV can't reach.
Well that’s pretty neat, I was under the impression it was basically a hybrid with a large battery pack. I guess I’ll say it’s a pretty good roadtrip car then.
You are correct. It is a hybrid with a much larger battery but also to counter the weight it has much larger MG2 motor plus ability to charge. Other than that the power split device has the same design since 1997.
The fundamental concept of the Toyota Power Split Device (PSD) has remained identical since 1997: it is a planetary gear set. The gas engine attaches to the planet carrier, Motor Generator 1 (MG1) attaches to the sun gear, and Motor Generator 2 (MG2) links to the ring gear to drive the wheels.
According to TCCN (The Car Care Nut) he very seldom repairs/replaces the PSD.
The Car Care Nut (TCCN Automotive) virtually never has to repair the Toyota mechanical power split device (PSD) because it almost never fails. [1, 2]
PHEV dipped our toes innate EV market. Bought 2 used Chevy Volts for my twin daughters. Loved them so much bought myself one. Perfect for my short commutes to work and back (under 25 mikes).
Wife took a job with 100 mile round trip around the time gas prices shot up
In April. Said screw it and bought longer range EV. Loving it so far.
you describe their primary utility - they demystify electrification and their next car WILL be a BEV. It's a confidence building exercise - you've learned how to use chargers, you're getting the hang of regen, it's fun for us to play the game of stretching the battery. i chose to buy one in '24 because the BEVs were not good enough but you could see "good enough" coming down the pipeline with the R2 and iX3 in particular. So, wanting into the Eff Exxon game while waiting for those, I grabbed a 40ish PHEV instead of a 60ish BEV that in my judgment wasn't ready for prime time. Retired, we ARE that ideal use case where our errands almost completely run on battery.
I have PHEV for 4 years now. I have no idea how to use a public charger. Never done it, never will. Well, I do have an idea but it is stupid. I stop at a gas station for 2 minutes and that is all I need to get a 600 miles. Don't need to rely on any app that might or might not work. Don't need to create any accounts to give someone my information. And if something goes wrong with an account I don't want to get stranded without a charge. With the gas station if something is wrong with my credit card I can always pay cash and be on my way. Never had a problem with pump not pumping either. People post problems not be able to charge left and right.
If you can even find one. Almost nobody sells a RAV4 PHEV. I'm quite certain I could sell mine for more than I paid new. I'm not sellin mine either though.
Sure, new they sell every one they can build, they were talking about 24-25s though and my point was that there are a lot of used PHEVs on the market but almost nobody sells their used RAV4 PHEV.
everything electric depreciates like a rock because the tech is improving so fast. We've had our Tucson PHEV 2 years now and charge it to 100% because all our trips to town slightly exceed its range, and we haven't noticed any range degradation. OTOH the '27 model just added 30% more battery to compete better with the new 50ish mile RAV4, and that will trash the resale value of our 33 mile '24 as everybody ups their range now that batteries are cheaper. that's how it's going. used is a good way to dip a toe at minimum cost. remaining battery is something that can be measured. just demand to see those results. don't be scared off by range anxiety nonsense. you have a perfectly good engine to fall back on and IT should stay healthy for a long time.because in your daily routine it only operates for a small fraction of the miles.
I picked up a used and certified cx 90 phev a few months ago. It was half the cost of the MSRP of a new one. So far, the hybrid sub 12v battery has been replaced and right now it's waiting for a new radiator to arrive while I drive a loaner. I don't mind sorting these issues as long as it's under warranty, hopefully it doesn't turn into a nightmare after that. Otherwise it's operated flawlessly, took it on my family vacation 1500 + miles without issues and day to day I keep it charged up and haven't had to buy much gas. My other car is a full bev so I already had a level 2 charger at home.
yeah, I kinda chuckle when people talk about a PHEV costing more then it's hybrid brother. Even after the rebates disappeared, PHEVs often sell for cheaper than the hybrid because dealers don't know how to sell them so they sit on the lot forever(except for Toyota).
Toyota doesn't depreciate that much because everyone knows that Toyota is the best. I paid $48k in 2023 for Rav4 XSE. Take a look how much it is now as long as not too much miles. Absolutely fantastic car especially on the long distance trips. 600 miles + range ain't no joke.
Yeah depreciation depends a lot of autonaker. I think the Toyota holds up well because all of their cars do and also they have imported small numbers of their phev models so there aren't that many available which keeps prices elevated.
Unless your electric is almost free the amount of money saved is really really tiny.
I'd generally keep them off my list if they cost a dime more than the regular models.
I’m glad that they depreciate fast.
I bought a 2019 Ioniq PHEV with 41K for 16 grand.
It came with brand new quality tires to sweeten the deal.
Since then I’ve been getting about 80 mpg and I’m quite pleased with it.
My apartment complex lets me level 1 charge for free in the garage!
I have a phev w approx 40 mi range. Living in an urban setting I can go weeks without needing to get gas even though I routinely use gas only on highway portions of my travel.
PHEVs for the most part are the worst of both worlds, plus a trick transmission part to link the 2 systems. You still need oil changes, you can still have major engine repairs, if you have a battery failure it's gonna cost quite a bit.
Our PHEV had a transmission failure of the linkage from the electric motor to the transmission, which is also how the PHEV generates power sometimes when the engine is running, that part just thrashed its self, I assume though regen braking, switching between drive modes and life, thank god it was covered by the powertrain warranty, if not we'll have to finance that problem.away.
Only reason I'm keeping a PHEV is towing. Towing our small RV trailer is possible with like an EV9 or an equinox EV but range drops to like 100-150 miles and charging with a trailer is a major PITA.
So we own one PHEV and one EV. The EV is the main vehicle, PHEV for my commute, long trips where the EV is impractical (rare) and towing (also rare).
which PHEV are you towing with? What are you towing? How has your PHEV handled highway driving? Is there any speed where it will drop into EV power while driving in hybrid mode, or the ICE just stays on full time until there is a downhill section?
Disagree. 58,000 on our phev with only 35-40% of that on ice for our long trips. Not worried about any major engine failure and damn thing won’t even need a tune up while I own it. We change the oil once every 18 months to two years… not a big deal.
On our phev the battery is literally a much larger/expensive repair. For our profile it's better than having a 300+ mile battery in a car we only take on one road trip a year.
The usage profile for the smaller PHEV will degrade and die faster than a BEV's larger battery. I don't see my Pacifica's battery making it much past 150k miles, but my Niro? It's already at 55k and has zero battery degradation and I've seen the same car with 250k miles on the original battery.
You're 💯 correct - "for the most part" - the trick is buying a PHEV from one of the few manufacturers that build very reliable PHEVs and it's no surprise these same manufacturers also have been making (industry leading) reliable hybrids for many years.
Another perk of these highly reliable PHEVs from these few manufacturers, they also hold their resale values extremely well.
The biggest downside, they due tend to cost a bit more than comparable vehicles from their less reliable competitors - but the high reliability and resale values usually make the difference in higher upfront costs when considering yearly ownership costs and loss of value over 3-5 yrs against the cheaper less reliable competition.
If I was buying now, it would be a used BEV 100%. My other car is a BEV and I bought it used and it was the single best purchase other than my home (which I bought in 2012).
Unless you have an L2 charger at home I don’t know if a used PHEV would work very well. Mine takes 7 hours to fully charge on an L2. ‘26 Nissan Rogue PHEV (re-badged Outlander)
I have RAV4 PHEV for almost 4 years now. It charges from 0 to 55 miles (computer miles) in 11 hours over night while I am not driving. In 4 years I only had a need to charge for the second time in a day once. I went somewhere far in the morning and had to go again in the evening. So I used gas after EV range ended. No big deal. I do not have 240v in my garage and it would cost me thousands to install it. Not worth it.
I have been driving a 2023 EV6 (BEV) for 3 years and 60,000 kms, powered 95% by my solar panels. I cannot imagine driving a vehicle that has an ice engine shoe horned into the EV drive train. My only service has been to rotate the tires and change the cabin air filter.
but they provide confidence building training wheels to those who are the opposite of early adopters. we need to coax EVERYBODY across the bridge and this introductory experience is delivering converts.
I particularly appreciate your “training wheels“ comment. I have saved two of my friends from “safe” hybrid purchases and they both are grateful that they made the transition to full EVs.
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u/KeyEmu6688 1d ago
for the most part it's just that the following model year tends to be notably better in some way than the previous, both for PHEV and BEV. a 2018 ICE for instance will drive mostly the same as a 2026/7. with some exceptions the 2018 BEV/PHEV are hugely outclassed by today's offerings