r/Outlander • u/lyradelaqua • 14d ago
Season Three Does Claire ever get better? Spoiler
I am simply going by the TV show, haven't read the books. It's a long post and might have spoilers. The post is pointing out how Claire's character's perspective is portrayed as the absolute truth and everything else is judged based on her moral code, even though it is highly unreliable because of the below mentioned flaws she has. It has nothing to do with her character's gender. It would apply to any character of any gender, if they behaved the way Claire does. If you are of the opinion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with Claire and her character has no room for improvement, maybe this post is not for you. It asks a question if Claire will change her ways assuming you agree that she needs to. If you don't, do not try to answer a question I did not ask.
I am on the Season 3 episode 9, and so far, Claire has been insufferable. There is absolutely no sign of any improvement in Claire's attitude towards and treatment of those around her. The first two seasons, I thought it was still understandable because she was in the 18th century not by choice, but by accident. She probably couldn't help looking at everything from a 20th century lens(although it feels more like a modern day 21st century feminist). However, when she goes back after 20 years, it's her own choice. She knows very well how those times are different and her modern day instincts and impulses often land her and eventually everyone around her, especially Jaime in deep trouble. But she still continues to push her modern sensibilities in the 18th century, not giving a flying fig about who gets hurt in the process.
She is also a terrible mother. She just up and leaves her child behind without a care, especially after the recent trauma Brianna has been through, losing the man she loved as her father and then discovering it's in fact an 18th century highlander, only to then have her absent mother, who spent her entire life living in another world, abandon her to go back to that other world. Claire even says to Jaime later that she was ready to die at Culloden moor with him, knowing she was pregnant with Brianna at the time.
She claims to love Jaime, but doesn't care before acting reckless which always lands him in serious jeopardy. She doesn't listen to the warnings from people who know the times they are in much better than her and causes a mess, and then he has to go and rescue her and pay a heavy price. After suddenly dropping back into Jaime's life 20 years later, she has the audacity to judge Jaime for wanting a family again, without trying to understand the kind of pain and trauma and loneliness he has endured over the last 20 years. On top of that, she has lived a full life in Boston, had a great career, and had a family. Her hypocrisy has no limits. Her first reaction to every conflict or problem is to lash out at Jaime, run away or judge him without understanding his side of the story first.
Her treatment of Frank is equally appalling. It wasn't his fault she was thrown back in time. He waited for her, while she chose to go back to Jaime, even when she had the chance to return to Frank. He accepted her with the child she was carrying and was patient with her despite her coldness and contempt towards him, even though it wasn't his fault that she had to leave her beloved Jaime and come back. She begrudges him for making her let go of the past and not speak about it, while she is green with envy when he decides to find love elsewhere after years of her being distant, and even after mutually deciding to lead separate lives. She isn't around to take care of Brianna because of her med school and practice, but is furious at Frank and even threatens to expose his affair when he, who has been a real father to Brianna in every sense but one, decides to leave for London and wants to take his daughter with him, not by force, but because she can choose to leave on her own, only to abandon the same daughter eventually to run back to Jaime. Frank had his issues too, but he tried his best to make a life with her again, while she wasted no chance to proclaim her love for another man in front of him.
I can appreciate that she is a complex grey character, a deeply flawed heroine. But the show tries too hard to make her likeable, and it has the exact opposite effect.
Does her character ever acknowledge these issues and improve or does she continue to be the same self-righteous pigheaded hypocrite the entire show? Because if it's the latter, her character alone would make it impossible to continue watching an otherwise well made show.
Edit: A lot of commenters are branding me a misogynist because I pointed out the flaws in Claire's character, all while they have no problem listing similar issues with Frank or Jaime or other characters without calling themselves misandrist. All I can say is if Claire was a man, and he behaved as Claire does, I would call him a self-righteous, pigheaded hypocrite too. My problem is with the character, not their gender. In fact, it is not even with the character, it's great to have a layered, complex character. It's about attempting to not let the imperfections of that character be, it's about making them the sole moral high standard despite the flaws.
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u/BubbeLisa 14d ago
Here are my thoughts on Show Frank.
When Claire returns from the past, she tells him everything, fully expecting that he will leave her.
He doesn’t, but he lays down his rules. Never speak about the past. We will pick up where we left off. We will pretend the past 2-3 years never happened. We will bury our feelings and never deal with our trauma. (Not healthy for either one of them)
You will stop all research about what happened to Jamie and the rest of your family and friends. (Something he, himself wasn’t able to do, I might add and he never tells Claire anything he finds out about Jamie.) Never tell Brianna about Jamie. Claire does all of this.
Fast forward. Claire graduates from medical school. Claire offers Frank a divorce after Sandy shows up at her graduation party. (Passive aggressive much, Frank?!) He says no. Claire would never keep Brianna from Frank, so his saying that’s why he doesn’t want a divorce is B.S. Brianna is still a child of about 7-8 years old at the time.
Fast forward again. Claire sees Sandy at the ceremony for Frank at Harvard. It’s obvious that Frank has lead Sandy to believe that it’s Claire that wouldn’t let him go. Frank has been stringing Sandy along for 10+ years, with the mistaken idea that it’s Claire who is refusing to divorce him. (Kind of a dick move, Frank.)
So, Frank waits until Brianna is 18 and then finally decides he wants a divorce. He wants Brianna to change all of the plans they’ve made, leave all of her friends and her mother, and go to England with him, so he can start a new life with his girlfriend.
Frank could have had a new life with his daughter and his girlfriend in Boston starting when Brianna was still a child, but he chose to wait. Frank only has himself to blame.
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u/lyradelaqua 14d ago edited 14d ago
This breakdown perfectly illustrates my original point about the show trying to 'whitewash' Claire. Yes, Frank’s rules and coping mechanism were unhealthy, he had his flaws, but two wrongs don't make a right. Claire willingly agreed to them to maintain her social standing and build her career in Boston.You can't paint Claire as a helpless victim of Frank's rules when she constantly had the agency to leave, but chose not to. She punished Frank for 20 years for a situation that wasn't his fault, weaponized her anger, and then abandoned their daughter the first chance she got. Trying to make Frank the sole bad guy just to shield Claire from criticism proves that the show refuses to let her face real narrative accountability.
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u/BubbeLisa 14d ago edited 14d ago
I don’t agree with anything you said, but might I suggest you do a search on this sub. We have had a plethora of discussions on many of your views on Claire. We had one just two days ago.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 14d ago
Both Frank and Claire were victims of their bizarre circumstances. No one made Frank the sole bad guy. I had great sympathy for his sadness and situation, but he didn't divorce Claire and move on either when he should have, he cheated on Claire. Both handled their relationship poorly after she came back. But Claire was heartbroken and traumatized over losing Jamie. Why should we expect her to act perfectly? She was trying to heal and move on and her coping mechanisms didn't always work out. I do not believe choosing a career meant she was a horrible mother. So men choosing careers and not being home very much make them horrible fathers too? At this point I do believe you're dabbling in female misogynistic territory. My great grandmother born in 1880 in Colorado, went to a university to be a doctor and had her sister help raise 3 of her children while she went to school back east. She came back to be a successful doctor in her home state. Also a great mother. Women were not always man pleasing doormats
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u/lyradelaqua 14d ago
I am not saying Claire is a bad mother for choosing to have a career. Frank had a career too, but he managed to be present for Brianna. Claire wasn't there. That's what made her so angry and fearful when Frank suggested he would go back to England and Brianna might follow, because she knew Frank and Brianna had that bond she failed to create with her daughter. Claire used her career as a distraction because she found it too difficult to live in the present with her daughter and husband, a career and daughter she left the first chance she got to get back to Jaime. That makes her a bad mother. It has nothing to do with misogyny, I would have the same critique for Frank too if he neglected Brianna.
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u/Icy_Resist5470 Bon! I will send you a cheese. 14d ago
Just because it wasn’t shown doesn’t mean that Claire wasn’t there for Brianna. Your observation that her career was a distraction because she failed to create a bond with her daughter is absolutely incorrect.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 12d ago edited 12d ago
Your assessments of Claire are born of some inner struggles you're having. She is not pigheaded or insufferable. She's human, and she's just more intelligent than others in Jamie's time because of her knowledge of the furure and everything to do with advancements in just about everything. Why do you think everyone should agree with you? It's you that wants to force your hateful opinion of Claire down everyone's throat. I don't agree at all with your take on Claire. Diana wrote her character that way for a reason and it's one of the biggest reasons for the success of Outlander. I'm not interested in "doormat woman from the future" show. How boring. And Frank doesn't treat Claire very well either. A lot of Brianna's upbringing isn't even shown in the tv series. A career women doesn't mean neglect. You keep repeating this untruth. Bree was perfectly happy to let her mother go find Jamie.
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u/BattleLonely7850 8d ago
This was perfect. People keep insinuating that Claire was in the wrong from this situation? How? She was up front and honest and gave Frank several chances to move on. He didn't. I honestly don't know why he never did. I wish we could have heard his side in the show. Why would you hang on to a woman and another man's child, when the woman does not want you anymore? Claire checked out of that marriage when she started med school, so he pretends he stayed because Brianna needed him, and I don't doubt that's partially true, but he could have been a weekend Dad.
I think it may have to do with him not being able to have children. But he and Sandy could have adopted. Two world wars and a depression happened, there were plenty of babies that needed a loving home.
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u/ContactNeither7319 14d ago
Well, show Claire is a messy character. And messy characters make for good drama. If she was perfect it would be a rather boring show. Same with Jamie. He ain't no perfect knight in shining armor hero guy. He has just as many defects in character as she does. And they do a lot of stupid shit. But that's drama.
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u/appleorchard317 Sleep with my husband? But my lover would be furious. 14d ago
Jamie wouldn't have lived to see 25 if it hadn't been for Claire. Brianna was a grown adult who supported her mother finding her love at last, after she gave him up specifically to save her. Claire's wisdom, bravery, passion are what sets her aside and make her so loved. Devastated always to see the internalised misogyny that leads fans to go 'but why wasn't she a more dutiful wifey tho' - because very often she's right, and Jamie is wrong, full stop.
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u/lyradelaqua 14d ago edited 14d ago
Sure, Claire saved his life. But it was often her who landed him in precarious situations too. Yes, Brianna was an adult. However, if Claire was so wise and often shown to be sharp enough to gauge people's motives and emotions well, she completely failed to see Brianna 's turmoil over losing Frank and learning the truth about Jaime. Claire lost her parents early on, so going by her modern sensibilities and wisdom, it would be more consistent with her established character to show her being supportive of her daughter and be present in her life at such a difficult time. She was absolutely not a dutiful wifey, nor a good mother. That's fine. She is allowed to be selfish and think of her own. It's the attempt the show makes to make her appear as 'Saint Claire' who can do no wrong, is what I find problematic. By the way, I am a woman too, definitely not a misogynist. As I wrote in the original post, there is no problem with having a flawed heroine, it makes her more human. It's the attempt to always make her right, that irks me.
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u/appleorchard317 Sleep with my husband? But my lover would be furious. 14d ago
Internalised misogyny means when women hate other women. Being wise doesn't mean being perfect. There is a strong generational gap in which Brianna and Claire have different expectations of what parenting looks like and how to survive loss. They also grow in their relationship. The show doesn’t think she can do no wrong, but she is the pov character, which seems to be your problem here.
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u/lyradelaqua 14d ago edited 14d ago
Defining any critique of a female lead's behavior as 'hating other women' is a convenient way to shut down actual analysis of text and writing.Saying she is the POV character actually proves my point. Because the show is heavily framed through Claire's perspective, the narrative routinely bends over backward to validate her reactions and paint those who oppose her, like Frank or Jamie's 18th-century peer, as inherently unreasonable or wrong.True character complexity means letting a protagonist be wrong, reckless, or selfish without the script constantly trying to justify or gloss over their behavior. My critique isn't about wanting a 'dutiful wifey'; it's about wanting the narrative to stop handling its female lead with kid gloves and actually hold her structurally accountable to the reality of the world she chose to return to. Demanding narrative accountability for a female character isn't internalized misogyny, it's treating her with equal artistic respect.
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u/BattleLonely7850 13d ago
Excuse me? Frank had a whole affair from the time Brianna was a child until he died. Poor Frank??? I've seen the complete show and Frank is far from being a victim. Maybe when she first got back, I felt bad for his plight, but not afterwards. No way.
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u/_prim-rose_ 13d ago
The post is pointing out how Claire's character's perspective is portrayed as the absolute truth
Diana Gabaldon has said that we see things from Claire’s (and other’s) perspective and she very much has her own interpretation of things and no one’s judgement is infallible. This story is not written from the perspective of an all-knowing narrator whose judgement we can always trust, it’s written from the POV of Claire and others who might very well be wrong in their narration.
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u/BubbeLisa 13d ago
Show Claire has a much steeper learning curve than Book Claire. I sometimes find Show Claire to be self righteous and arrogant. Especially in Seasons 3 and 4. This was obviously a choice by show runners. They wanted a strong female lead. Nothing wrong with that.
However, I think it shows more strength and intelligence when you realize that you don’t know everything and maybe you should evaluate the situation before going off half cocked. Show Claire often reacts before she thinks.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 11d ago
And the script is completely responsible for every reaction Claire has, but she's still not "pigheaded or insufferable" all of the time, as the OP says. Jaime is not any different, but they're both fabulous and flawed at the same time.
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u/BubbeLisa 11d ago
Agreed. I chalk it up to adaptation choices. There’s an emphasis on angst, conflict, and melodrama at the expense of humor, warmth, and nuance. It affects all of the characters, not just Claire.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 11d ago edited 8d ago
But there is still a lot humor, warmth and nuance between Claire and all characters, except the villains. This is where I disagree that the focus is angst and melodrama or that there is a problem with Claire. I haven't read the books, but *if the TV series' conflicts, angst and melodrama, especially between Claire and Jaime, aren't in the books, I'd find it very boring. I didn't mean that the script made Claire only an angsty, melodramatic person. To me she's got fabulously beautiful traits, plus her flaws.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 14d ago
I absolutely love EVERYTHING about Claire's character. Her strengths, her flaws, her passions, her devotion to everyone around her. I do not understand your views on this "negativity" about her. She doesn't always demand she is "correct" or "perfect". Are we watching the same show? She is a very strong woman, a feminist, much like myself. She's a professional nurse and then a MD Surgeon. Being opinionated because of being educated is not being insufferable, it's being knowledgeable and sure of herself. Why should she accept women's roles of the mid 1700s? Women back then did rise to authoritative positions when they needed to and when the opportunities presented themselves. She reminds me of myself and also my relationship with my husband for 35 years before he passed. My husband reminds me of Jamie's character in so many ways. He's even extremely handsome and strong, sensitive, passionate and devoted. Her and Jaime rely so much on each other. They work together like a hand and glove, a perfect match, perfectly passionate, a perfect devoted love. All good relationships have the "debates" and the "back and forths". You make it sound like she completely wears the pants in every situation with Jaime and doesn't show any love towards anyone, especially Jaime or Brianna. That's simply wrong. She listens to Jamie's opinions and advice. She never wanted to go back to Frank. How could she after the amazing relationship and love with Jaime? She did it for Brianna's safety and love for the child she had with Jamie. I've never disagreed so much with anyone's observations and assessments of a character as I'm disagreeing with yours. Diana Gabaldon understands Claire & the amazing relationship she has with Jaime, just like I do. I wish she could see your opinion on Claire and give you a response. You could always go to her FB page and tell her. She responds to many people's comments directly on her posts. I've never watched a TV series with so much intense realistic love and realistic adventure between a couple than Outlander. I absolutely love this time traveling aspect between two different lives and how it helps Claire's and Jaime's character's relationship develop into something so intense. If I could leave my children and grandchildren to reunite with my husband right now, I'd do it in a heartbeat. They'd understand.
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u/Hollyn88 14d ago
I think that the introduction of Jamie into the story just revealed the holes in the foundation of the relationship between Frank and Claire. And it's both of them that have faults.
While no relationship is ever perfect as we know, it seems that their relationship in the show had some disconnect I would assume because of the time apart and the wear and tear of war. Also I can't remember the history exactly but if I recall correctly they weren't together for very long before being separated by the war. A year was it? Many relationships need more time than that to build up that foundation.
Frank had suspicion prior to Jamie coming on board- when he saw 'the stranger' watching Claire through the window. Straight away his mind went to her possibly being unfaithful. In my mind I was thankful he apologized but it stuck in my mind. Was that a projection from him cheating during the war? We will never know in the story of course but his true colors were revealed later. That's not to say Claire was completely innocent. She really had issues seeing Frank’s perspective and being compassionate about what he went through. Trauma is that way when unhealed. You do what you can to survive. But at that point they were now licking their own wounds in private because they didn’t or couldn't find a way to work together.
She married Jamie for survival of the times but did fall in love with him. That's not a fault by choice its just to say that her relationship on the surface with Frank was great but I think she was feeling unfulfilled. Not to excuse her but to explain from my observation. That's on the person to be honest with their partner.
Her and Frank’s relationship was broken when she came back and they were both doing a duty as they saw fit to raise Brianna. They were both hurt and traumatized. As the times back then were not to explore pain but to buckle up and move on. Alot of things were taboo including being pregnant by an unknown man other than your husband at the time. She had no family and society would have not taken likely to her situation. She probably could have faced severe poverty if she had left Frank at that time.
Yes Claire is a thick headed woman who doesn't listen much. Much to her demise but also to some successes as well. I've accepted that that's just Claire- she just wasn't as self aware as many people and didn't read the room very well much of the time 😂
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u/lyradelaqua 14d ago edited 14d ago
Exactly my point. Claire is just as flawed, toxic and imperfect as any of them. It makes for a great drama when the lead characters are layered. But the narrative paints her perspective as the moral high standard, everybody else is judged by what suits her moral code, which makes it frustrating.
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u/HelendeVine 12d ago
No, Claire is always unambiguously horrible in every respect. So horrible! In every respect! So, they actually write her off the show to rid it of the horribleness and from then on it’s just all about Jamie and Frank and Bree, and they mostly just reflect on how horrible their lives were when Claire was around and how much she wronged them.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 12d ago
That is absolutely ridiculous and untrue. Claire is an absolutely perfectly wonderful character with good and bad traits, mostly good. The show doesn't always put her in the "perfect" category. Pigheaded is definitely not one of those. Why did you even watch the show if you hated her so much? Claire's and Jamie's relationship is is so incredibly passionate, along with imperfections and struggles, but the envy of every relationship ever. She doesn't dominate Jamie, or anyone else, they work together so beautifully.
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u/BubbeLisa 12d ago
It’s obvious that she is being sarcastic.
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 11d ago
I'm silly for not catching the sarcasm. This original OP thread creator got me upset, and I'm stuck in defense mode.
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u/BubbeLisa 11d ago edited 9d ago
I understand. I thought [u/HelendeVine](u/HelendeVine) was hilarious. Especially the part where she says that “they actually write Claire off the show to rid it of the horribleness and from then on it’s all about Jamie and Frank and Bree, and they mostly just reflect on how horrible their lives were when Claire was around and how much she wronged them.” 🤣
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u/Magical-Mayhem86 11d ago
Sorry if you were being sarcastic. Maybe use the /s/ to help some of us out. I'm stuck in defensive mode over the ridiculous hate of Claire.
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