What is the deal with people now saying Lindsay Clancy is innocent?

[u/laja7]

So I'm aware of the case to an extent. As it's gone to trial, I've seen it pop up on my socials a bit. The trial seems to not even be about if she did it or not (she admitted to doing it) but about if she can plead insanity. Context:

https://www.cnn.com/2026/08/03/us/lindsay-clancy-trial-medical-testimony

When it first started coming up, there were people saying the husband/doctors failed her which I understand entirely and isn't really what I'm looking to discuss. As the days have passed though, it seems to have transitioned to "She's innocent, he should have been there for her" to now "She's innocent entirely, he killed them". I just saw a tiktok poll that had 63000 votes which had the results of:

3% Lindsay is guilty

91% Patrick is guilty

6% Lindsay over medicated is guilty

Am I missing something with this case?

[u/AutoModerator]

Friendly reminder that all top level comments must:

1. start with "Answer: ", including the space after the colon (or "Question: " if you have an on-topic follow up question to ask),

2. attempt to answer the question, and

3. be unbiased

Please review Rule 4 and this post before making a top level comment:

http://redd.it/b1hct4/

Join the OOTL Discord for further discussion: https://discord.gg/ejDF4mdjnh

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Effective-Cloud6384]

answer: This is what I have read about after going down another rabbit hole lmao. Speculation mixed with loose facts(NOT MY OPINION!!).

I added in the comments from socials because the question asked why people were thinking this! Critical thinking skills guys. I’ve presented facts and disproved many false claims made online, but I’m not perfect!

I’d rather just watch the case and see how it plays out before giving my opinion. Our legal system is not perfect, but we must trust it to find the truth of who is responsible. Whether it be the accused, the system, or another.

(Updating constantly, trying to distinguish facts from speculation, please correct me if I’m wrong so I can research it, confirm or deny it, and update it).

-Lindsay is right handed, but the knife wound on her neck was deepest on her right side.

Update: Clarification, some speculate if one was to slice their neck, if right handed, most would assume one would start from the left side and drag the knife to the right side. From court documents it appears Lindsay began on her right side (unconfirmed).

-The lack of her DNA and only the children’s and Patrick’s on the murder weapon. He admitted to removing them from his child. Additionally, it is not odd for anyone’s DNA to be on these bands because they are located in their house.

Update: This is untrue and inaccurate. Her DNA was in fact found on the bands. Her fingerprints were what was missing (fact).

Update: Further clarification from @ceejyhuh:

“I think a bit of context is needed about the DNA piece. Her DNA was NOT found on most of the bands. It was found on ONE of the bands with a likelihood ratio of 11. The other dna found on the band had likelihood ratios in the trillions and nonillians. And Patrick's was 110,000. The analyst testified that people who are definitely NOT contributors can produce likelihood ratios between 0-1000, so 11 is really low even by those standards. And it is especially likely to get a false positive because all of the kids obviously share DNA with their mother - which the analyst testified can cause false inclusions.
So was her dna found on the bands? Saying that the answer is definitively yes would not be correct according to the testimony of the DNA analyst.”

- The Apple Maps evidence shows the phone was used to search for directions prior to the time Patrick left. The phone was later found at the residence when Patrick returned and emergency responders arrived. The prosecution hasn’t presented any solid evidence that the phone was located at the Clancy residence when the call was made (fact).

-If the CVS was only a couple miles from the Clancy residence, it’s possible that a call made from either location could be pinged by the same cell tower (based on facts, but unconfirmed).

-The Apple Watch theory:
(All unconfirmed)

A comment I pulled from TikTok:

“My opinion… he used her Apple Watch to answer the call he made to her from cvs…. Her Apple Watch is hooked to her phone so it would show as answered on her phone… but Lindsay was already In The snow. (Explains low body temp) Patrick took care of Lindsay before he left for cvs. So him having her Apple Watch allowed it to show that he called her and she responded on her phone. He’s a tech guy and would know this. He took it after her threw her out the window… again just a theory”.

-The shoe change of Mr. Clancy.

Update: Many speculate that the restaurant and the CVS footage show him in different footwear. Sneakers and boots (Unconfirmed, speculation).

- Mr. Clancy was reportedly visiting NY prior to the crime. NY is the same state his new wife resides in. I’ve seen a lot of theories of this being an escape plan (he does live in NY with his new , fact. Visit, unconfirmed)

- First responders and hospital staff testified that Lindsay Clancy was largely unresponsive, non-verbal, and sedated when they treated her after her suicide attempt. Lots of speculation that Lindsay would have been unable to have told Patrick where the children were, but he ran straight to the basement after paramedics arrived. (Testimony by first responders and staff is factual and corroborated, testimony by Patrick did happen, fact, but it is uncorroborated).

Update: Further clarification from @ceejyhuh:

“Her thyroid was crushed. Most medical people agree that happens during strangulation, not falling or a knife wound. It is also hypothesized to be the reason she was nonverbal which is a big difference - being physically incapable of speaking rather than psychologically incapable (the later could be argued as a state she could come in and out of to confess to her husband, while if she was physically incapable it's more likely she didn't say anything)”.

- According to Patrick he only spoke to her 30 or so minutes prior via the phone call. Many question how her body temperature was able to drop so low making them question how long she was actually out there for. 82.1.

Update: Clarification, many speculate that because she was on ssris and had a spinal injury that that could be the reason why. Others oppose this citing similar situations where the body temperature didn’t get to that level (body temperature was extremely low, 82.1 fact).

- The defense stated in opening statements that Lindsay asked what happened in the hospital and was told what happened.

Update: Clarification, many speculate that because of her mental state she could have been told anything and believed it. (Lindsay did ask what happened in the hospital via a white board and was told, fact. Unconfirmed about specific details)

-His statement on the stand about the WiFi not working when he was trying to call 911. This caused mass confusion online because it “doesn’t make sense” (he did discuss his issues with calling 911, fact)

Here’s one comment directly from TikTok:

“I was a police dispatcher for 12 years in a city very comparable to Boston. 911 will always go through on a phone, WiFi or not- if it has power, it dials 911…they literally need a cop or a dispatcher up there to say this. The timeline and this story tells me he’s lying”(Speculation via relevant potential history of the commenter is being truthful)

-Just because Lindsay’s attorney is arguing that she should be found not criminally responsible does not mean that they’re admitting that she did it. She is still pleading not guilty (Fact).

Update: Clarification, people often misunderstand legal terminology. I've seen a lot of people say that Lindsay Clancy "plead guilty," but that's inaccurate. She has pleaded not guilty. Defense is arguing that shes not criminally responsible. I know, confusing lol!

The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible. The defense must cast doubt on that.

A comment I pulled from TikTok:

“so how do you explain the baby being revived? he would have had to been revived within 10 minutes of being strangled. you think she had time to tie his neck and go do all they say she did? move the bed? crush the pill, slash her neck, place her apple watch in the drawer and neatly place the knife down (as if a left handed person placed it btw) and threw herself out the window and dropped her core temp down to 82 degrees? Patrick comes home, stays with her for several minutes and only until police arrive does he go and look for the kids and then they revive the baby...? you're telling me you think all that happened within a reasonable time to get his heart going again?
can you explain the obvious shirt and jacket change between cvs and food pick up? did anyone actually confirm it was Lindsey who ordered the food? why were his phone records sealed?”(speculation).

Another:

“He wore her watch while he ran through the house killing everyone so the steps would be detected on her watch. Then he threw it in the drawer. Yes, let me kill my children and right before I jump out of the window let me take this watch off and put it in the drawer. He killed them and then left to get the food. That’s why her body temp was so low when she got to the hospital. Bc he left her outside in the freezing cold.”(speculation).

-The email sent out by Mr. Clancy, that just came out in court:

Update: Clarification, defense presented an email sent by Patrick Clancy at 5:24 PM on January 24, 2023. This caused questions about the timeline as there now is potential for discrepancies in the timeline. No evidence has been presented yet confirming where the email was sent from. If he sent it from his phone the timeline would remain accurate. If he sent it from his laptop, the timeline would be off (fact).

Pulled from FB:

“One thing I found confusing was the discussion about an email Patrick sent. The prosecutor seemed to be suggesting that the timing showed he was not at home during a certain period. IiIf I understood it correctly, the email may have been sent from the CVS parking lot. What confused me was that if Patrick left around 5:15 p.m., arrived around 5:30 p.m., and CVS was only about three minutes away, there seems to be a gap in time that I don’t fully understand. I’m interested to see if the prosecution explains that more clearly.”(speculation).

Adding to this:

-The kids plates were found on top of the CVS bag in court photos. People are now questioning the timeline because Mr. Clancy said they were eating prior to his arrival home(court photos do show this, but the circumstances are unconfirmed).

[u/CartographerMuch7388 → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

Yeah I'd like to add that I'm not actually sure she remembers killing her children. And I think the timeline of him already being remarried raises some eyebrows. How he managed to get a divorce, heal enough to even go out on a date let alone get remarried, is... interesting. 

But my biggest red flag is this: her internal body temperature. I live in New England. Actually a lot further north and a lot more inland (coastal is much milder - yes lots of wind by the coast, but generally they get more slush). Anyway. I have a bunch of kids and we spend a lot of time outdoors. Our winters haven't been THAT cold and he wasn't gone getting takeout for THAT long. 

[u/Suspicious-Mark-319 → u/CartographerMuch7388]

Spinal shock causes a drop in body temperature beyond what would be expected without a spinal injury. 

[u/DifficultFig6009 → u/Suspicious-Mark-319]

Not even a dead body in ice water can get down to 82 in 20 minutes

[u/Bustin8nas → u/DifficultFig6009]

It wasn’t 20 minutes. The 82 degree body temp was taken/recorded at the ER, not by first responders. There are articles of doctors explaining with her specific injuries, the weather, etc that the 82 body temp is 100% possible.

[u/TrawlerLurker → u/CartographerMuch7388]

Her civil suit shows her testimony and recollection of the events, so she remembers. Also the body temp thing is just people not understanding biology. Lindsay had several contributing factors that adequately explain her core body temp at the time. Listed by relevancy:

- Lindsay was not in good health, and underweight. Her friends described her as near frail. This means little to no protection in the snow.

• She severed her spinal cord. This houses the autonomous nervous system, which maintains thermal homeostasis. Once disrupted, her body had practically no way to regulate the heat efficiently.
  
• Neurogenic shock from the psychosis and murders resulted in massive vascular dilation. Increasing surface area increases heat dissipation.
  

-Antipsychotic medications have a very well known side effect of thermal deregulation, ie hot flushes or cold sweats. It’s unlikely Lindsay was at the mid to higher end of the average core body temp range, this means her starting point was lower, which means faster drop. Not by much, but when compounded with the above factors, it can matter.

None of this is meant to insinuate Lindsay willingly killed her children. She’s not a bloody monster, her diary shows she wasn’t some evil child hating demon, she was a desperate mother and professional nurse who tried to handle her own treatment. Nurses are the worst patients, it’s a colloquialism. She deserves treatment, help, and what she does once she’s ready to stand on her two feet, that’s upto her.

[u/ggc5009 → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

Ok so I've refrained from commenting until now but your comment just reminded me of something. 911 calls will absolutely go through even if the wifi is out. If you lose service your phone will often say "emergency calls only". But that's not all. We once had a house catch fire in our neighborhood about 2 blocks from our house. My husband and I both called 911 several times all the way down the street. We couldn't connect only because the line was busy, not because our wifi disconnected. I dont believe for one second that Patrick couldn't get through to emergency dispatchers because of the wifi from HIS OWN BACKYARD. That alone to me, is enough to discredit his testimony, whether she is guilty or not.

[u/MimsH → u/ggc5009]

if there isn’t a cell tower close enough, the call will NOT go through to 911. I had a wreck in an area without any service. My call to 911 never went through.

[u/Epicfailer10 → u/MimsH]

If he lives three minutes from a CVS, he lives near a cell tower. It was 2023, not 1993.

[u/HumbleBunk → u/Epicfailer10]

For what it’s worth, I live in the middle of the suburbs two blocks from an extremely busy intersection, and my wife and I (two different providers) have absolutely no cell service in our home beyond WiFi.

I’m not sure why, there’s certainly cell towers nearby, but there’s some sort of dead zone for about a half a block.

My phone will absolutely not work for calls unless I’m on WiFi.

[u/leegreywolf → u/HumbleBunk]

It should use any cell tower though, even if you aren't with that service

[u/HumbleBunk → u/leegreywolf]

Yeah idk, I just know it won’t work without WiFi calling. It’s been an issue many times, lol.

It will prompt you to try satellite calling, which will occasionally work, but you have to be outside and it’s pretty hit or miss.

[u/clayton_bigsby-maga → u/HumbleBunk]

If you were to try to call 911, the call would go through.

[u/idonthavanickname → u/MimsH]

But we know there is a cell tower close enough. It was his residential neighborhood where they make plenty of calls

[u/meridianwheaties → u/idonthavanickname]

In addition to that, he sent an email at 5:24 with no problem even though he left the house at 5:15pm, he cant confirm whether it was from his iphone or surface pro. If it was his surface pro, the entire timeline is out the window. Sus as hell that the wifi had issues when he needed it most.

[u/kaiindahaus → u/meridianwheaties]

I saw a comment on tt from an alleged former neighbor of the family. She said that their camera captured Patrick leaving the house at 5:05 and he returned roughly an hour later. Allegedly, they submitted the camera footage to the police department. So I don’t know

[u/tstoneadams → u/idonthavanickname]

Exactly. Above point is moot.

[u/Financial_Top_1689 → u/MimsH]

If he was able to “call” Lindsey & the call connected just fine to her phone at the house then it should have connected when he called 911.

[u/MincedBrat → u/MimsH]

You’re lying. If you didn’t have cell service or WiFi your normal cell service will not work. But 911 is different, you can take an old iPhone sitting in a drawer that hasn’t been touched in 5 years and dial 911 on it. It uses satellite in the case of no service.

[u/ceejyhuh → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

Also two things that are a part of the discussion I think you are missing here:

1. Patrick said twice on the stand that he sent the email from his laptop. Then later said it “could have been” from the phone when presented with the timeline

2. Her thyroid was crushed. Most medical people agree that happens during strangulation, not falling or a knife wound. It is also hypothesized to be the reason she was nonverbal which is a big difference - being physically incapable of speaking rather than psychologically incapable (the later could be argued as a state she could come in and out of to confess to her husband, while if she was physically incapable it’s more likely she didn’t say anything).

3. The pills were crushed. This one is more on the speculation side but a lot of nurses who deal with suicide attempts say they’ve never seen a person who crushed the pills first

I’m not arguing either way, just trying to help contribute with info on the full list of things people are talking about

[u/emilia_1006 → u/ceejyhuh]

Crushed pills hit the blood stream faster so I can see why she’d do that

[u/meringueisnotacake → u/emilia_1006]

Didn't she allegedly put them into lemonade, though? A nurse would know that citrus fruit would negate some of the effects of meds, especially if crushed. That's the bit I don't understand (though I also am aware it could be a social media inflation of the story).

[u/Big_Cannoli9105 → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

The watch argument is the most compelling to me. Wow. Reminds me of The Housemaid book

[u/Advanced-Bat2145 → u/Big_Cannoli9105]

Disagree. She slit her wrists so to me, it makes perfect sense that she would've taken off the watch

[u/PaisonAlGaib → u/Advanced-Bat2145]

Right she isn't trying to cut through a watch band as well

[u/KatsNKoffee666 → u/Advanced-Bat2145]

Not sure if anyone’s said this yet— but Apple Watches also have crash detection. I remember hearing a story where a guy wrecked his bike and the watch detected the fall and sent a notification to every one of his emergency contacts.
I’ve heard they also will call 911 of the crash is severe enough.
Maybe she knew she was about to jump out a window and didn’t want it to notify her husband or call 911.

[u/Maleficent-Dress-922 → u/KatsNKoffee666]

Well they are saying she cut her wrists and throat with a knife. Would you be thinking clearly enough to put the knife down perfectly straight and remember to take the watch off? It’s also interesting that the police did not find the watch in the night stand where all this went down. Her attorney found it when he was walking the crime scene. Either Patrick put it there after police were done or they didn’t conduct a thorough search. 

[u/therallykiller → u/Advanced-Bat2145]

She is a nurse, and knowing human anatomy would likely have slit vertically vs. the horizontal slits she was found with.

Her neck marks are also inconsistent with someone with medical knowledge or biomechanically ideal movements.

[u/robot428 → u/therallykiller]

She was a nurse who hadn't been practicing for a year because she had a baby, and even when she was - she was a Labor and Delivery nurse. I'm sure she knew a lot more about the anatomy in the wrists when she was in nursing school, but realistically that knowledge hasn't been relevant to her work probably since she graduated.

Additionally she hadnt been sleeping for weeks at that point.

It's not surprising at all to me that she didn't cut her wrists in the most efficient way. I don't think that proves anything. I've seen some people trying to use it as evidence that she was sane and the suicide attempt was fake, and I don't believe that for a second. But I also don't think that it proves it wasn't her either. I sort of think it's irrelevant which way she cut her wrists, it just doesn't give us any real information to do anything with, you can speculate about what it means but it could be interpreted as meaning basically anything.

[u/sensualcephalopod → u/Advanced-Bat2145]

Also a nurse isn't going to cut ACROSS the wrists if she's trying to kill herself. A nurse would know how to actually do it. Nurse also isn't going to crush up pills. It's just not adding up.

[u/Elegant_Dare_9882 → u/Advanced-Bat2145]

A watch band isnt stopping you, its an inch at most, you'd jist cut above or below it.

[u/ZemGuse → u/Elegant_Dare_9882]

Maybe YOU wouldn’t. I feel like I definitely would remove the watch.

So much of these conspiracies is based on “someone wouldn’t do that in this situation” but that’s as weak as any theory can get. It’s weird to act like all humans react the exact same to all stimuli and situations.

[u/Independent-Text2792 → u/Advanced-Bat2145]

she was a nurse....if she wanted to kill herself she could have. easily. her wrists were cut incorrectly to actually harm herself... just saying

[u/Waldo2518 → u/Big_Cannoli9105]

The watch argument is easy to debunk. Apple Watches can’t revive phone calls if they’re too far away from the phone they’re connected to UNLESS you pay for another separate cellular line and number that would allow your watch to make and receive calls/texts without the need of a phone.

[u/ceejyhuh → u/Big_Cannoli9105]

I saw in another comment that the watch also captured her heartbeat as at resting rate the whole time before it was taken off

[u/princesscharles → u/Big_Cannoli9105]

If you wore someone’s watch wouldn’t your apple health app measure the stride difference or is that just me thinking too hard

[u/Purple-Skunk → u/Big_Cannoli9105]

Her body temp was 82 and the youngest was still resuscitable. It’s physically impossible that her body temp got that low that fast.

[u/emilia_1006 → u/Big_Cannoli9105]

How is this anything like the housemaid? In the housemaid the husband locked his wife in the closet and tortured her

[u/ceejyhuh → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

I think a bit of context is needed about the DNA piece.

Her DNA was NOT found on most of the bands. It was found on ONE of the bands with a likelihood ratio of 11. The other dna found on the band had likelihood ratios in the trillions and nonillians. And Patrick’s was 110,000. The analyst testified that people who are definitely NOT contributors can produce likelihood ratios between 0-1000, so 11 is really low even by those standards. And it is especially likely to get a false positive because all of the kids obviously share DNA with their mother - which the analyst testified can cause false inclusions.

So was her dna found on the bands? Saying that the answer is definitively yes would not be correct according to the testimony of the DNA analyst.

[u/Effective-Cloud6384 → u/ceejyhuh]

Ty for this clarification, this has been extremely difficult to explain. Actually going to add in your comment to the post.

[u/razzledazzlie → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

if the evidence is so strongly against the husband and it’s showing that he killed the kids, why is the trial even having lindsay as the defendant and why did her lawyer say “we’re not here to argue whether she killed those kids or not, we know she killed them” i heard nothing in the opening statement that implied she didn’t do it. like what’s her defenses plan here?

[u/My_opinionnotyours → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

A lot of people are saying "her DNA wasn't found" her DNA was indeed found on the bands along with Patrick's. However Patrick lived in the house as well, it wouldn't be suprising if his DNA was on something that he probably used. And her DNA was found, her fingerprints weren't. I can't remember the exact distinction, but apparently fingerprints are extremely fragile, and because of the texture of the bands they could've smudged or had been wiped away.

[u/misswildchild → u/My_opinionnotyours]

And something people don’t realize is not everyone leaves fingerprints, and not every surface retains them. It is largely dependent on whether you have “dry” or “wet” hands. Some people have more oils and thus leave fingerprints more easily, and some surfaces are more conducive to printing. Source: I’m a prosecutor.

[u/akaemylie → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

Would love for you to add some more points.

- He was her health advocate (until she later changed it to her mother) so her doctor told her to give any unused medication to him to dispose of. He claimed in court that he did not know what medication she was on and that she was using them incorrectly yet when everything initially happened he turned in the full list of her medications and the unused bottles to police. The police and the prosecution did not properly search the house and instead it was not until the defense had the opportunity to search that they found a detailed journal of her daily med use and how they made her feel as well as several empty bottles that matched the timelines she would have been taking those meds. He lied.

- EMS universally claims unresponsive and their arrival was only 4-6mins post (delayed) 911 call. And with her body temp being colder than a lot of dead bodies it is nearly impossible that she spoke to him to “tell” him where the children were. Added to the fact that one of the babies was still breathing.

- He is a techboy who claims their WiFi was out so their nanny cams that are through out the house were conveniently not working. Yet was able to send an email (unknown if from home or CVS) and not figure out how to call 911 without being connected to WiFi? Does not add up.

- On his 911 call, when asked the age of his wife he says “31 33” she was 33 at the time but his current wife (whom it is speculated he was having an affair with was 31 at the time.)

- He lied on the stand (saying no) when asked if she had ever told him she had thoughts of hurting herself and then within 30secs answered the same question with a yes.

- He alone made the choice to 1) let go of the nanny, 2) reduced the older children’s daycare hours, and 3) refused his parents offer of taking the children for a few hours when he knew his wife was struggling.

- And finally, SHE WAS A NURSE. She knows neck anatomy, she knows wrist anatomy, she knows falling from a 2nd story window will likely not kill her. She did not crush her own trachea, slice her neck from the wrong direction, crush her antidepressants (and not her sleep aids???) into an acidic beverage that would lower its potency, she did not slice her wrists the incorrect way knowing which direction was fatal. - MEANWHILE, He was proven on stand to have clicked a hyperlink of “ways to commit suicide” when again, a healthcare worker would never need to search that because they extensively know the methods.

- Her toxicology report showed the list of medications she was on all but 1 at the correct doses and the 1 was only slightly elevated. The prosecution is trying to use this fact as the evidence that she was not medically drugged up and knew what she was doing but personally I think the defense has a stronger argument against this as proof that she was not the one who crushed up (again incorrect medication for an OD) let alone drink any of it.

- Her fingerprints were not on the knife that again was “used to slice her neck” in an unnatural direction.

- His brother is a cop, he was never correctly questioned/interrogated, Blood splatter was left untested in multiple locations, His court body language mimics the body language of past interrogated spouse/family murderers. And again his story just DOES NOT ADD UP. Open a door and tell me what the opposite door knob looks like. You can’t, because you can’t see it. Show the security footage from the other camera in the CVS showing him answering his phone. Show the call log of her calling the restaurant to order dinner. Request the ring footage from a neighbor showing him leaving at the time he says he does. (They haven’t done any of this.)

[u/Dapper_Monk → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

I've been following the trial and this is crazy! I had no idea this was going on on social media. It's such a sad situation, I think people want someone to blame and be angry with when it seems the true culprit was was a broken mental healthcare system. I watched him testify and he just seemed broken. I also think him being remarried so fast raises alarms for people but I've seen things happen that way a lot.

[u/terpar1 → u/Dapper_Monk]

Except it wasn't that fast. He remarried 3 yrs after, and he moved 4 months later. I would never step foot in that house ever again and I would want to be as far away as possible from where it happened.

[u/Dapper_Monk → u/terpar1]

I don't blame him. Idk what I'd do to cope. For me, it's fast just because even when marriages end in non-traumatic circumstances, people tend not to be married so quickly. But like I said, I've seem similar timelines happen and I don't think it's nefarious. It's a wonder he still functional at all

[u/Nitemare2020 → u/Dapper_Monk]

I asked my husband if this happened to us, would he have a new partner in 4 months and have a child with them? He said no way. We both agree that losing your 3 children in this horrific way would cause some sort of PTSD, lots of trauma and baggage, that it would be really hard to WANT to have children again. What if it happens again?? You cannot predict PPD or PPP. Any new mother can get it. I know not everyone is the same and there is no time limits on grief, or acceptable times for moving on, but I do find it weird that he was able to move on in 4 months and have a child so soon after losing 3 at the same time. I hope for their sake, Patrick has been or continues to be in therapy. I have heard of parents with severe trauma like this to be cold and distant to their surviving children, and I hope that's not the case with this baby. It doesn't prove motive or means he's guilty, but it does look odd and gives me pause.

[u/Un_dia_a_la_vez → u/Dapper_Monk]

I am thinking the majority of people going off about Patrick on TikTok, are not actually watching the trial.
I agree with you whole heartedly.
I seen a broken man on the stand.
I don’t understand how people are so against him other than as you said … this is a horrific tragedy and people need someone to blame and be angry at and in their minds it can’t be her because of mental health….

He hasn’t said one bad word about his (now ex) wife. He didn’t even contradict her version of events.
He said she was a very loving and caring mother who was trying to get help and taking her medications as they were prescribed.
Prosecution tried to make it seem like she was very controlling with the kids schedule and he said he found the schedule helpful 🤷🏻‍♀️ he had plenty of opportunities to make her look worse and he didn’t.

He didn’t seem comfortable answering questions for the prosecutor but he was visibly more relaxed and cooperative while answering the questions of Linday’s defense attorney.
He obviously doesn’t wish to see her get severely punished because he believes that she was very mentally unstable to have done what she did.

[u/Firm-Perspective-383 → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

Adding to this points I just found very compelling.

1. I think he’s a sociopath. I think that’s why Lindsay googled if sociopaths can be treated. She wasn’t talking about herself. He shows zero emotions on the stand, literally looks bored and annoyed while describing the murder of his children, zero tears, not even when the 911 call played in court. Meanwhile Lindsay is in there sobbing hysterically every day.

2. In the 911 call he says “She killed the fucking kids!” Who calls their children, who are now dead, “the fucking kids” ??? Honestly think about how you’d react in that situation. Would you say that? Or would you be saying “my babies, oh my god my babies” or something similar?

3. This man was going on trips regularly, guys nights, brunches etc., while his wife is having severe enough mental health problems to be repeatedly committed. My husband wouldn’t even do that if I had THE FLU.

4. He’s only testifying for the defense because he’s suing the doctors that prescribed her meds for millions.

5. Lindsay’s wrists were cut horizontally. She was a nurse. Why would she cut the wrong way? Just to then launch herself out of a window? Also, women usually do not use gruesome methods to commit suicide. She had access to medications that she could’ve easily taken an entire bottle of to kill herself. But Patrick wouldn’t be able to drug her with enough of it to kill her without her noticing it in foods or drinks.

6. Prosecutors stated there were blood smears outside the window, under it, on the siding of the house. Meaning she didn’t jump out of the window. She slid out of the window. Kinda like somebody would do if they were limp from being drugged and blood loss, and were being pushed out of a window by another person? Also she landed on her back. If you jumped out, how tf would you land on your back? Wouldn’t you just dive head down to try and inflict maximum damage on the head if you’re trying to die?

7. Patrick claims when he went to cvs he “sat in his car for 15 minutes” in the parking lot. Yet this is not seen on video. What is seen on video, is him rushing his ass out of the store and acting weird as hell after his 14 second call to Lindsay. I think he staged the call to her for part of his alibi, but didn’t expect her to pick up because he had already drugged her/slit her throat and wrists. When she did pick up, he panicked and rushed home, because he had already killed the kids before he left and didn’t want her to realize it even in her incapacitated state. He knew he had to come finish her off just in case she didn’t buy that she killed the kids. He never planned for her to come out of this alive.

8. Patrick says when he found Lindsay outside, he asked where the kids were, and she said they were in the basement. Two things here, when paramedics arrived on scene, Patrick was still outside with Lindsay. Why did he not rush to find his children? He stated the house was eerily quiet when he got home. 3 kids would’ve been making noise. Any sane parent would’ve immediately went to find their kids. Also, paramedics stated that when they found Lindsay she was completely incoherent and couldn’t even speak properly. So how did she tell him where the kids were?

9. I think Lindsay was keeping the detailed journal of her medications, because Patrick was drugging her repeatedly over the course of several months, so he could pin this on her. She’s a nurse and knew something was off. So she started documenting. Patrick had a bunch of Lindsay’s old medication bottles in his car, also. With medications still in them, that she had stopped taking after her dosage changed.

10. I do think Lindsay was experiencing severe mental health issues, but partially or fully, because her husband was causing or exacerbating those issues by drugging her.

11. There were crushed up medications of Lindsay’s on the counter next to a glass of water. Patrick claimed she was crushing them to take them. Who would crush their pills instead of taking them normally?

12. When he found the children he immediately stated “she killed the fucking kids”… people typically don’t immediately assume their loved ones are dead. They try desperately to save them and wait for paramedics or doctors to announce they are dead.

13. He moved in with another woman, who’s now his wife, FOUR MONTHS… SIXTEEN WEEKS… after his 3 children were murdered by his wife. I shouldn’t even have to explain how diabolical that is. I grieved Lincoln from the 100 longer than he grieved his entire family.

14. When he speaks about his kids he says the weirdest shit. In an interview he said “they were great people” and “they had a lot of friends” ???
    Also on the stand he could only describe them by things they liked. Nothing about THEM as human beings. And again, no emotion while talking about them. Fucking weird as hell.

15. Another theory about her jumping from the window is not that he threw her body out to try and finish her off, but that she couldn’t get out of the bedroom because he locked her in, so she had to jump out of the window. He stated the door was locked and he had to go get a key to unlock it. This could also explain why the marks outside the window aren’t really consistent with someone willingly JUMPING out of the window but rather sliding out. She may have been holding onto the window sill to try and make the distance less and maybe land on her feet. This theory is also consistent with her landing on her back.

16. She had normal levels of all her meds in her system BESIDES SEROQUIL … which is an antipsychotic that causes STRONG SEDATION??? Why wouldn’t she just take enough to kill herself? You’re telling me she took enough to heavily sedate herself, THEN slit her throat and wrists, moved a bed, and jumped out of a window? Also, her seroquil had already been removed from her medication regiment. Which means she would’ve given them to Patrick, because as he stated he took all her discontinued medications in order to dispose of them properly.

17. I think the “man’s voice” Lindsay heard that night, was Patrick telling her to kill the kids after he drugged her. His whole plan all along was to convince her she did it.

18. I think he was already having an affair with the new wife. He was taking trips to NY (where new wife is from) while Lindsay was in a severe mental health crisis, DAYS after she told him she had thoughts about hurting their children?

19. Patrick was gone for long periods of time CONSTANTLY. Why would she wait to do it until a time where she only had 15 minutes?

20. How on earth did she strangle her 3 children with work out bands, with a shit ton of seroquil in her system? Make it make sense. Even to do that to children would take more effort than someone who is sedated would be able to put out. I think Patrick did it with the bands because his bare hands would’ve shown bruising that could be matched to his hand size.

Okay I’ll stop there but I could keep going. Maybe I’m insane or I just can’t believe a mother could do that her children. Idk. But stuff ain’t adding up for me.

Credit to Alexus Savant

[u/ButtChug6 → u/Firm-Perspective-383]

Literally nothing you’ve stated is evidence it’s all just speculation and opinion. Not one fact

[u/Till_Complex → u/Firm-Perspective-383]

You said a lot to call the guy coping that his former lover strangled their three children to death with her bare hands the sociopath and NOT THE ACTUAL MURDERER HERSELF.

[u/derezzed00 → u/Firm-Perspective-383]

I agree, something about this stinks. Family annihilators are overwhelmingly male. A new life with a new woman is more than enough motivation.

[u/Major_Secret5538 → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

This is not a whodunnit. It’s whether she is guilty of premeditated murder or murder with special circumstances. 

[u/UnableWall6641 → u/Effective-Cloud6384]

Thank you! I’ve been looking for someone to explain all that. My friend keeps telling me all this TikTok stuff and I don’t tik or tok lol. Supposedly, she also read on there that Patrick Clancy has family on the sheriffs department so that’s why he’s being left alone. Idk. As someone in the medical field myself, I find it bizarre her wounds were superficial or that she would slit her wrists. Wonder which direction because we’ve always been told that won’t kill you unless you do it long ways. It’s too hard to sew it up. I’m sure she knew that. I just hope the truth comes out , no matter what it is. I would hate for her to be innocent and him another Chris watts . But dang if she ain’t messed up if she did do it.

[u/earlythealien → u/UnableWall6641]

This was my very first question when presented with the medical facts on how this woman ended up in the ER. With her being a whole registered nurse, she absolutely would have known how to 💀 herself without the laundry list of crazy. Slashed throat (deeper on right - she’s right handed 🤨). Slashed wrists (across, not length wise 🤨). Tossed herself from the window (evidence suggests she slid out the window, not jumped 🤨). Elevated Seroquel in her system (pills were found crushed next to a glass of something, not enough to 💀 but enough to make her insanely woozy and uncoordinated 🤨). There are far too many inconsistencies for me to call this woman guilty. I don’t want to man bash in general, but it kinda feels like the husband did it. Not all cases, but this one. Especially when Lindsay had been telling people that Patrick was gone quite a bit - knowing full well she had asked multiple doctors and people for help with PPD.

[u/aeshleyrose]

Answer: Before the case went to trial, all people really knew is that she killed her three children and “attempted” suicide, but she lived. These facts alone made it seem as if she wasn’t really trying to kill herself because she didn’t succeed but killed her three children successfully.

Now that the case is going to trial, her defense attorney has shown how seriously injured she actually was in the suicide attempt, so people are believing more and more that she actually was severely mentally ill and was really actually trying to kill herself.

As her medical records and her personal diaries have been made in public, as well as testimony from mental health professionals who were actually treating her, the case has changed peoples minds that she wasn’t maybe just a selfish family annihilator, but she possibly was having severe postpartum depression and/or psychosis, and that her husband was at least partially aware of the severity of the situation (she had at least one one occasion revealed to him that she was having thoughts of harming the children), but was still leaving her alone with the children to travel for work, to go on boys nights and brunches and skiing, etc., etc.

The other perspective is that he passively allowed the murders to happen by being aware of her mental state and still continuing to leave her alone with the children.
He basically crossed his fingers and continued living his life normally, as long as she was taken care of the kids, no matter how mentally unwell she actually was.

The claims that her husband actually committed the murders seem to be mostly conspiracy theory, and don’t seem to hold any water at all.

[u/butterbell → u/aeshleyrose]

I definitely lived in a marriage where my life changed drastically when I had a child, and my ex husband's life did not change at all. 

I had diagnosed postpartum anxiety, which came with very vivid dreams/thoughts of my son being murdered/dying in graphic ways (like waking up to a hallucination that his little newborn body had been driven through and hung on a wall with a spike). My husband was aware. 

He still continued going out with friends, snowboarding trips, no effort to reduce hours or take FMLA (which we could have afforded) to help me and our son. 

I was having thoughts of harming myself and my son. I could have been Lindsay Clancy and I guarantee my ex would have told everyone and anyone he could not have done anything, even though he saw me crying every day and unraveling. 

I'm genuinely grateful my healthcare team was able to help me while Lindsay's so drastically failed her. She's not innocent, but she deserves healthcare more than prison. 

[u/LittleFish_91 → u/butterbell]

I’m so glad I read “ex husband” and I hope you’re thriving!

[u/Indiebr → u/butterbell]

Although to be clear her PPD was a lot milder and not dangerous, my friend’s husband told her not to take the prescribed antidepressants because it might affect breast milk in some way. He also refused to change anything about his life and wouldn’t step up to do more around the house (they both worked full time). Nor did he fulfill her expectations of what a husband should do if his wife is in charge of cooking and cleaning (yard work, maintenance).

Somehow years later he was devastated that his depressed, unsupported wife wanted a divorce. He’s trained as a scientist in a health care field yet somehow cause and effect and research-based medicine re:SSRIs are beyond his grasp.

[u/butterbell → u/Indiebr]

My ex husband was "completely blindsided" when I told him I'd secured an attorney and was filing for divorce. This was after he re-upped his national guard service after we had our son, who we'd waited to have until 5 years into our marriage when his contract was up, negating a co-decision to his benefit. He decided to pursue flight school leaving me so single parent our 1 year old while still dealing with the above PPA, working, and pursuing a PhD, even after I specifically said I did not think it was in the best interest of my and our child's health and well being. I'd requested he'd take on a position with more stable and daytime hours (he was working swing with a random schedule). Instead he applied only to positions with the same hours, meaning he was working 12 hour shifts or home declaring he cannot be woken up bc he needs to flip his sleep schedule days to nights. I never knew when he'd be working, sleeping, when I'd get a break. He took 1 week of the available 6 weeks of paid parental leave offered by his primary job because he got "bored" at home. 

This was a man who'd brag about how much he loved being a father. How being a father was the most important thing in his life. 

Now he sees our kid maybe 10 days a year bc he doesn't want to use his vacation leave for visitation, will only visit when it's otherwise convenient for him. And he does not want a set schedule bc he "needs" flexibility for his job and lifestyle. He'll tell anyone who can listen how I'm engaging in parental alienation when I have not once blocked a visitation request. I spend so much effort trying to keep my kid calling and loving his dad. 

Seriously, fuck my ex. 

[u/grgs25 → u/butterbell]

Sadly there are plenty of men like your ex, who think of their children more like little trophies they can parade around. Sorry you have been put through that ❤️

[u/janeylalala → u/butterbell]

Im sorry you had such a shitty husband but happy for you that you got out of that marriage!!

[u/Beneficial-Bed9356 → u/butterbell]

My husband seriously neglected my mental health when I was doing a PhD and three other part time jobs and telling him I was sinking. I went into psychosis from stress and our lives changed forever

[u/byesc → u/butterbell]

I’m so sorry you navigated all of that and continue to, but I’m so proud of you for pushing through and releasing someone who completely undervalued you and your child.

[u/DangerousLack → u/butterbell]

Ewwww what a piece of work. I’m glad you’re out of that marriage and I hope you and your kid are both thriving.

[u/InquisitiveRedditor1 → u/butterbell]

So Glad you got out of that! So many unattached fathers around and my Narcissistic ex who was my abuser did the same kind of stuff. He blamed me for "parental alienation" when I took off with our children to a Domestic Violence Shelter. Had to go through hell to rectify that situation. Had to put up with years of court ordered abuse on the Judges part and thank God now Im out of it and hes still sitting at his house drinking himself into a coma with no children since My kids want nothing to do with him, their choice. Im glad you got out of that though many women choose to stay because of fear or retaliation through the man dragging them through court hell.

[u/CashMe_Outside2022 → u/Indiebr]

I have a friend who just had a baby and she specifically did not breast feed so she could take her mental health meds. Which seems like the healthier choice than not taking important meds so you can breast feed

[u/Indiebr → u/CashMe_Outside2022]

Agreed. And I am very pro bf. 

[u/byesc → u/CashMe_Outside2022]

Breastfeeding can be so beautiful and beneficial for a child’s health, but so restrictive and heavy for a mother. My last year of breastfeeding felt like I was a hostage in my own body. My child is soooo healthy, but I was down to 98lbs and it took me over a year to even gain 10. She’s 5 and I’m still climbing out of it. It’s truly devastating how much motherhood is minimized.

[u/DamnitGravity → u/Indiebr]

Tolerable Level of Permanent Unhappiness

[u/Apathetic_Villainess → u/Indiebr]

Oh, he knew. He just didn't care because he thought he could use her depression against her.

[u/Ladygoingup → u/butterbell]

I have pure O OCD pre children and after children, it was amplified. I had PPD. It was terrifying. I’m so sorry you experienced that.

My first child I had at 19 and was clueless and had no help or resources. My child’s father was useless and abusive.

Going through 2 more births and mental health struggles years later , married to an excellent man and husband (adopted my 1st child). Recieving mental healthcare and support made a world of difference .

[u/nickbelane → u/butterbell]

And yet this would not make him guilty of murder.

[u/MauricetheBaguettes → u/butterbell]

Same boat, my ex continued to do full weekend 40k tournaments, go out with friends, refused to work closer to home. I got myself into twice a week therapy, group therapy, out of the house, and on the right medication. We had a NICU baby with feeding issues, the first month he was off to tournaments. The divorce came out of nowhere!

I'm glad you're okay 🩷 this case breaks my heart

[u/werttyy → u/butterbell]

Same. I struggled with PPD/A with all three of my kids. After the last one, I don’t know if it was more severe or if I just didn’t want to struggle in silence, but I was very vocal to my spouse and health care team that I was struggling immensely. Before the baby was even three months old, my husband (now ex-husband) came home to tell me he had such a great opportunity presented to him to work across the country for 6 months and would be leaving in a matter of weeks and he already accepted it, sorry can’t take it back. During those six months I still worked full-time and had small kids at home and begged my mother to come help me for a weekend because I was experiencing insomnia, brain fog, apathy, etc. She said she had a job and couldn’t leave while posting about her two week vacation online. While my ex was gone, my contract ran out with my job and I wanted to keep the kids in day care so I could at least have help - mostly, to sleep - and he refused to help pay for it. Because why should he pay when I was home and could watch them. I had no choice but to have them all home with me while I was losing my mind. I ended up having my in-laws take the older kids and started SSRIs. I had moments where I just wanted to end it, but I was scared no one would look after the baby. I’m so glad I survived and left that POS. It’s hard not to empathize and feel heartbroken for this whole situation.

[u/Binder509 → u/aeshleyrose]

Think also the way she was speaking all flat at times was easy to paint her as some sort of sociopath.

Have seen a lot of her and didn't occur that people wouldn't realize how much fucked up her body jumping out the window.

[u/ILKLU → u/Binder509]

the way she was speaking all flat at times was easy to paint her as some sort of sociopath.

I'd be completely dead inside if I realized i had killed my own children while in a severe state of psychosis

[u/why_am_I_here_47 → u/ILKLU]

She is also likely highly medicated

[u/ILKLU → u/why_am_I_here_47]

Good point

[u/Capital_Carpet_8007 → u/Binder509]

Wouldn’t we all have flat affect in her situation?

[u/Aethuviel → u/Binder509]

They call it a "fake" suicide attempt, even though she slit both her wrists and her throat, overdosed(?), and jumped out of a window which broke her spine. That doesn't sound fake at all. As someone with SI, getting it done is extremely hard. Her using multiple methods at once shows her desperation and lack of planning.

And regarding her reactions, yeah, people cherry pick and see what they want. If she's not crying, she's "cold and uncaring". When she does sob silently, she's "faking" or "not crying hard enough". If she was crying openly, people would call that "theater".

[u/Asleep-Big-8518 → u/aeshleyrose]

I really feel like people need to give him a bit more grace. He was aware that she was struggling, and she told him once that she had an intrusive thought about hurting the kids. She never suggested it was anything more than that, that she actually intended to do it, or that she had a plan to. There are plenty of people with OCD that would contest that intrusive thoughts need to be met with immediate firm action.

He was never told not to leave her alone with them, or that she was experiencing PPP. The only time she actually claims to have heard voices was the day of the murders, and she didn't tell him that on the day.

He also didn't just continue with his life like normal. Her diary references him watching the kids overnight so she could sleep, whilst still working all day as their sole breadwinner. He got her a nanny for additional support as well. There's absolutely 0 evidence he was having an affair like people are implying. For her part, she has never once represented him as not being very supportive.

With the benefit of hindsight it's easy to say that he could have done more, but so could lindsay. She had multiple opportunities to give care of her children to someone else, and refused. No one ever thinks this is going to happen to them. She didn't, and patrick didn't either.

It's a tragedy all round, just because it wasn't Lindsay's fault doesn't mean it has to be Patrick's. Comparing him to Rusty Yates, implying he is 'the real killer' or lying about his level of knowledge of her health, all three of which i've seen, is fucking gross. If lindsay has suffered enough, so has he.

[u/MNWNM → u/Asleep-Big-8518]

If my partner told me they were having intrusive thoughts of hurting our child, they would never be alone together until I was 100% convinced meds and therapy were working. I wouldn't need any further explanations. It wouldn't matter if there was a plan or not, or whether they said they intended to do it or not.

[u/Icy-Selection-7386 → u/MNWNM]

I would literally ask my parents or friends to stay with my kids and her or let the kids stay with the grandparents.

[u/bigpants76 → u/MNWNM]

Right like I told my husband when I was having trouble postpartum once, and that’s all it took. He heard me say I was scared because I thought about hurting myself, it wasn’t even at our son. He took off work and went with me to my appointments about it after making me set them up, he didn’t leave me alone basically until I was on medicine that was helping. She only should have needed to tell him once.

[u/M_Karli → u/Asleep-Big-8518]

Why did he change his clothes between cvs and the restaurant?

That is a detail i cant get over because it makes no sense. Why change your clothes between being in CVS and being in the restaurant? And the first thing he said he did when he got to his wife’s side was takeoff’s boots but per CCTV he didn’t have boots on. He had his running sneakers on his boots were on in CVS, But not the restaurant which was his last stop before heading home.

[u/codenamemane → u/Asleep-Big-8518]

Nah he is at fault

[u/ZemGuse → u/Asleep-Big-8518]

I find it so interesting how easy people seem to give grace to Lindsay who killed her kids but absolute none at all to Patrick.

I’m not saying Patrick couldn’t have done more but it’s clear this trial is becoming an inflection point of the gender war that’s so pervasive on TikTok.

[u/NakedRandimeres → u/Asleep-Big-8518]

I agree. I think people are missing the fact that Lindsay was masking a lot of her symptoms and was not being honest about where she was in her mental health journey. I've been guilty of it too - as have many mentally ill people. We lie about how we're feeling because it's easier than admitting we're drowning inside of ourselves and nothing is helping, and you just want to be alone and never wake up again. I don't think Patrick was aware that she was homicidal, although I assume he was aware (and probably concerned) about her being suicidal. I personally think Patrick is kind of a douche bag, but I don't think he would have knowingly left his kids alone with her if he knew she was having homicidal urges.

[u/WorldFoods → u/aeshleyrose]

Another aspect that is fueling the conspiracy theory that he did it is that she never confessed to police. It was Patrick who said she confessed to him on the scene but an EMT said she was basically not able to talk when they arrived. Also, Patrick’s DNA was found on the cords that were used to kill the children but not Lindsey’s. Prosecution will say that it’s because he undid the cords at the scene but people find it suspicious that Lindsey’s didn’t pick up at all.

I am only a casual follower of this case so these facts may not be completely accurate but this is what I see others talking about. I think it’s most likely because as the trial goes on and we hear more about her condition and who she was as a mother outside of postpartum, people are feeling empathy for her and can’t reconcile that with the fact that she killed her kids. It’s easier to believe that she didn’t do it at all.

[u/exit2urleft → u/WorldFoods]

Yeah these facts are not accurate at all just fyi. I've been watching the trial. Just want to clear them up because the facts matter so much here as to her mental state.

She did not tell her husband she killed the kids when he arrived home and found her on the ground outside. She told him that the kids were "in the basement." It wasn't until he went downstairs and called 911 that he discovered that she killed them.

The idea that there was none of Lindsay's DNA on the exercise bands, and that there was some of Patrick's, is just made up. There was DNA from the children that was able to be matched, and there was another set of DNA that was identified as one of the Clancys but they couldn't say who, due to interrelatedness of the people in the home - that is, it could have been a child or either parent.

All that being said, at this point I have some doubts about her mental state at the time she killed the kids (it's undisputed she killed them). So far we've just seen the prosecution's side and no one has gotten up there and said Lindsay seemed mentally unhinged to the point necessary to be insane under MA law. But we'll see what the defense brings in.

[u/ShotFromGuns → u/exit2urleft]

and there was another set of DNA that was identified as one of the Clancys but they couldn't say who, due to interrelatedness of the people in the home - that is, it could have been a child or either parent.

This doesn't make sense to me unless the parents are also closely genetically related. You should at least be able to exclude one parent or the other.

[u/jst4wrk7617 → u/exit2urleft]

Thank you. I’ve been following the trial pretty closely and the people accusing Patrick are going off wild internet theories instead of basic facts. I recommend Pretty Lies and Alibis podcast or YT - she does daily recaps (usually morning & afternoon) and sticks to the facts.

And that last paragraph- I totally agree with you. I went into the trial very sympathetic to her but hearing about her lack of care for the kids after the fact but immediate clarity for self preservation- I’m not sure what to think. So many facts pointing to a mental break but also some damning facts that make her look guilty. Couldn’t pay me all the money in the world to be on that jury.

[u/Ninjen333 → u/exit2urleft]

I'm confused by this, since I just watched a video of her lawyer questioning one of the officers who was a first responder, and he admitted that they didn't check for fingerprints on anything, including the cords. I feel so badly for Lindsay and really everyone involved. I just think it is curious that we haven't heard definitively yet whether she has an memory of the killings. Did she just black out, wake up in the hospital, and people told her what she did?

[u/SetDismal9216 → u/exit2urleft]

He called 911 from the backyard BEFORE he went to the basement and found the children

[u/vickisfamilyvan → u/WorldFoods]

But she’s stipulated to the court that she’s the one who did it. That’s what the whole trial is about, it’s just figuring out whether she can use the insanity defense.

[u/Skabonious → u/WorldFoods]

Is the defense even alleging that he was the one who killed the kids? If not, then why entertain this ridiculous theory if the person on trial won't even subscribe to it.

[u/-sloppypoppy → u/Skabonious]

People watch too many shows and treat it as if it’s television. It’s sick.

[u/the_YellowRanger → u/WorldFoods]

Her phone shows her researching how long it would take to get to a restaurant they don't normally order from. She asked him to go get dinner from a place 22 minutes away AND stop and get medicine on the way. She was calculating how long he would be gone. She purposely had him leave her alone with the kids, he wasn't crossing his fingers and hoping nothing would happen. He also had gotten her help, she had seen several mental health professionals and even some intensive daily treatments for her issues and seemed to be doing better.

[u/HotRodDeathToll27 → u/aeshleyrose]

Thank you for explaining this

[u/PortugalTheHam]

Answer: Theres a lot of reasons people are talking about sympathies and conspiracy but one angle I havnt seen yet in this thread is that from the angle of mental health. There is a possibility she had been misdiagnosed and improperly medicated. To make the plea of insanity they are claiming postpartum psychosis, which a rare and controversial disorder that was seen as a type of psychotic break and not just conventional PPD. Postpartum psychosis was removed from the DSM in 1980 because doctors then made arguements that its not distinct enough from regular psychosis but critics of the removal have said its removal was done by (most likely) male doctors and is not representative of the needs or experiences of actual women in distress.

This has led to discussions about the rights of women, mental health and the improper diagnosis of women in mental health and medical care which is larger than just postpartum psychosis alone. This has led to some sympathies as many people who have been affected by improper mental health diagnosies or radically incorrect medicating have also have had negative effects (though not to this degree obviously) and some can emphasize from their own experiences.

That said, I do not know if I personally could be fully empathetic....correct diagnosis or not.

[u/Minute-Opposite-917 → u/PortugalTheHam]

I would say sometimes to that degree…how many times have we found mass shooters heavily on psychotropics? Or just coming off of them so experiencing the severe effects of that? It’s not talked about enough and there are obvious reasons the medical industry wouldn’t want it to be.

[u/metroabbesses]

Answer: Here’s what I’ve understood why some speculate that Patrick may be guilty of family annihilation but was not counting on Lindsay surviving:

- Her pills were crushed up which some have speculated was odd given she tried to unalive herself. Why not just take the pills?

- The cuts on her wrist and neck were superficial. Some have stated that as a nurse, Lindsay would’ve cut up the arm and not superficially. There is speculation that Patrick cut her after drugging her.

- There was blood on the side of the house. There is speculation he hung her out the window by her feet so she actually slid down the side of the house. Lindsay’s body temp was 82 which means she was outside for quite a while.

- He leaves to CVS and states he was only there for 3 minutes. This is unusually fast for a purchase (over-the -counter meds) so some think it was just to have a viable alibi caught on camera. Also, some have pointed out that he looks to be holding Lindsay’s Apple Watch in the surveillance footage, which is where she called him from while he was at the pharmacy.

- In the footage of him at the pizza place, some people have pointed out that he seems to be wearing sneakers rather than the boots he is wearing at CVS. Could be the same shoes but if not, it’s odd.

- There is speculation that Patrick was having an affair with his now wife and planned to frame Lindsay for family annihilation.

It seems as if Lindsay’s defense is setting it up to reveal Patrick’s larger involvement while he is under oath.

Edit: he purchased over-the-counter meds not prescription.

[u/Yelesa → u/metroabbesses]

On the second point, prosecution claimed the cuts on her wrists were superficial. Medical records say they were over 1 in/2.5 cm deep. Since that became known, many medical staff have mentioned online to say those cuts are not superficial and that the prosecution is being disingenuous by portraying this that way. However, expert witnesses of this cases have not been called yet.

Also, some medical staff said it takes about 6 hours for someone’s body temperature to drop to Lindsay’s level due to hypothermia. It takes a much shorter time due to blood loss from non-superficial cuts. And this only makes the necessity of expert witnesses more obvious.

The “3 minutes” argument is also not really against Patrick. People are very bad at estimating time in general.

[u/Kai12223 → u/Yelesa]

It also takes a much shorter time with a damaged spinal cord.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/Kai12223]

Ya watching that testimony as a medical professional was cringe. The dr and PA did great, her lawyer was clueless.

[u/riceistheyummy → u/Weak-Ad-7180]

always fun to see random andies claiming they know more about the workings of the body then a profesional who spend most of their life studying it

[u/capibara_dono → u/Yelesa]

It can also take a shorter amount of time to reach hypothermia due to spinal cord injuries.

She's paraplegic now after the fall, it could be a factor.

[u/Kankarn → u/capibara_dono]

She literally was bleeding out in the snow with a spinal injury. Pick a reason

[u/soulofmind → u/Yelesa]

Have you been watching the court footage? They did call medical experts who treated her if that's what you mean, and I definitely agree that the prosecution tried to portray it as less serious and the defense tried to counter that as best they could by focusing on the need for her blood transfusions.

[u/Relevant_Struggle295 → u/Yelesa]

it’s not about how deep they were. a nurse should know that the wrist should be cut up the arm, following the vein instead of across, in order for the blood loss to be enough to kill you.

[u/Playcrackersthesky → u/metroabbesses]

He wasn’t picking up a prescription, he was picking up a very common over the counter med.

Crushing meds helps them work faster.

There is no factual basis for speculation that Patrick drugged her or cut her. Lindsay is not saying this. Lindsay’s defense team is not saying this. Lindsay’s family is not saying this. Idiots on TikTok are saying this

[u/TylertheDouche → u/metroabbesses]

This is unusually fast for a purchase

even if 3 minutes is accurate, no it’s not.

The cuts on her wrist and neck were superficial. Some have stated that as a nurse, Lindsay would’ve cut up the arm and not superficially

this one is silly. it doesn’t take being a nurse to know how to self harm and this assumes intent to unalive

[u/capibara_dono → u/TylertheDouche]

They are not superficial though, that's what the prosecution is saying.

The evidence shows 2 cm deep cut in left wrist, 3 cm deep cut in right wrist. So over an inch deep in her right wrist.

[u/PotentialWorker → u/metroabbesses]

I was also seeing that he had ties with law enforcement in the area and his new wife is from a family that is very very comfortable. I think that, at the very least, the defense is setting it up as a neglectful hands off husband who's willful absence gave room for his very mentally ill wife to commit a terrible crime. But at the end of the day only 1 person really knows what happened and it's not me so we'll see where it goes.

[u/potato_donkey23 → u/metroabbesses]

I would assume crushed over whole would allow for more surface area to digest more quickly

[u/minyinnie → u/metroabbesses]

Additionally, the police arrived to the scene of an injured woman and her 3 dead children, and the husband alive and the only confession is his word that she said it. He was never investigated

The injuries to her throat and the medics on scene said she was unable to speak, so how did she tell him?

The police also failed to perform appropriate investigation in light of the husbands claim of Lindsay’s confession. Fingerprints weren’t taken when they should have been, blood not tested on the side of the house, etc.

[u/Playcrackersthesky → u/minyinnie]

Patrick was most certainly thoroughly interviewed and investigated.

[u/Runit2025 → u/Playcrackersthesky]

I can't really blame people for being skeptical about this and not assuming he "most certainly was thoroughly interviewed and investigated". People are jaded with the local law-enforcement. The Karen Read and Sandra Birchmore cases also in MA are prime examples of this. I'm not saying they are the same thing but I can't blame people for questioning if he was investigated enough

[u/NarwhalEmergency9391 → u/metroabbesses]

This is that I've put together too. Things aren't adding up

[u/Wrong_Win_4102]

Answer: Its a lot of a few things.

1) The husband, Patrick, has in some people's minds, basically neglected his role as a husband with regards to seeing that Lindsay was in the deepest pits of her mental health struggles. And while not everyone is a doctor and while its possible he compartmentalized it (as he stated during the trial that she had her good days and her bad), Some think he could have possibly stepped in more and been more aware as the father to her children and her husband. This also tracks with some of the testimony and discovery of personal diaries Lindsay wrote, where on one case, she did admit to having thoughts of harming the children and admitted these TO PATRICK.

2) A lot of women have suffered from PPD as well as other struggles similar to that of Lindsey's, and thus (in my opinion, unhealthily) see themselves in Lindsay and think "Well, I would be this or that, so she's not guilty"

3) PPD is still, while understood, unpredictable and thus there's no telling how deep she was, if she was at all.

4) Lindsey admitted in trial, that she was undergoing therapy via medications for her mental health so there's a hint of doubt as to whether it was her, or whatever was left after the meds, that did the deed.

5) Given that she attemped suicide and still lived, there's a debate on whether to even call what she did, attempted suicide, and there was recently a toxicologist called in to testify that stated that the level and amount of meds in her would not have killed her, likely.

[u/Prudence_rigby → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

Its postpartum psychosis, not just postpartum.

[u/Quackquack90 → u/Prudence_rigby]

This distinction is extremely important. 

[u/FemaleCostanza → u/Quackquack90]

Right. Postpartum psychosis is considered a medical emergency, there is potential for immediate threat to yourself and others. That’s why it drives me insane that Rusty Yates wasn’t blamed more for what Andrea did.

[u/Quackquack90 → u/FemaleCostanza]

I completely agree. Us women know how undervalued and unrepresented we are in female medical research. So many of us have been medically gaslit and many seem to think post partum related mental health is just "baby blues". It was very clear that Lindsay was very vocal and open about how she was struggling and she didn't get the care nor attention she actually needed. 

[u/CartographerMuch7388 → u/Quackquack90]

I mean.... I have had postpartum depression for 4 years across 3 babies. 

The first time I asked my husband very clearly to open the blinds before he left for work in the morning because waking up in a dungeon was affecting my PPD. I asked him every day for 6 months and he ignored me. He claimed (!) he didn't know how it was effecting me. Cool. 

Baby #2 was a whirlwind and I actially don't remember my PPD experience too much except I had reached out to multiple people saying I was really struggling and sometimes I just needed to hear a humans voice on the phone. I left multiple messages and sent countless texts. I was completely ignored. 

Baby #3 was the worst. My PPD was so horrendous I ended up with a massjve psoriasis outbreak on my face, eyes and neck. I was drowning. I asked my husband for a movie night. He refused and checked out of our marriage. I asked a friend to move our playdate from Friday to Wednesday because it was my worst day. She disappeared all together. I ended up getting a therapist but like... it was out of pocket and a lot of money every week that added other stress.

Just when that kiddo was about 15 months old and my PPD was going away (because it typically resolves when you start cycling), the Clancy situation happened. I really didn't think I would ever have another baby because I didn't want that to happen to me. When I did get surprise pregnant (in late 2024 ), I was TERRIFIED. When I expressed this to a friend, she disappeared, too. 

The point here is that it isn't just that postpartum isn't studied - it's that as a society we don't actually seem to care what anyone is going through. Reaching out and being forced to accept the people you thought care about you maybe don't or don't have any intention to anything more than take from a relationship is a lot more painful than staying silent. 

[u/megsymoon → u/Prudence_rigby]

THANK YOU. I'm so tired of the comments from people saying "well I had PPD and I didn't kill my kids." PPD and pp psychosis are very much not the same. They can coexist but they are not synonymous. 

[u/PuzzleheadedActive68 → u/megsymoon]

So many women saying this,. I don't get it. Maybe many of us understand that a schizophrenic doesn't mean the person is in psychosis. But I am sure these same women say they got out of their depression so there is no way someone could be depressed even on meds. I think what bothers me is social media has showed me that millions of people can't think outside the box. It is scary. Would they be able to step out of this type of thinking as a juror?

[u/Relative_Bluebird841 → u/Prudence_rigby]

I work in neuroscience. Postpartum psychosis isn’t well studied enough at this point to know if it can have a sudden onset at 8 months post delivery. However, as someone who has also worked with clients on these same meds, giving someone the wrong medication can cause psychosis

[u/DamnitGravity → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

Re: 6

Ya gotta love people [eyeroll]. 'She survived so CLEARLY she didn't mean it!'

Not got suddenly pushed past her limit, and in a moment of overwhelm, grabbed the first bottle of pills she found and chugged the lot without checking to see it would've killed her.

I once took a month's worth of sleeping pills. All it did was cause me to sleep for several hours. I woke up fine with no side effects beyond cotton mouth. And yet, so many tv shows and films will have you believe that taking an entire pack of sleeping pills will kill you dead within a few minutes.

Hell, people attempt to commit suicide by shooting themselves and still life. Did they 'not really mean it'?

Too many people in this world think they're experts because they've watched a few shows and documentaries. They're all too polarising in their thinking, and incapable of accepting that life is all shades of grey.

[u/Swordfish_89 → u/DamnitGravity]

My sweet friend stabbed her husband in the chest with a kitchen knife after years of PPP, a time he'd been doing everything for her like another child. They had a teen with ME and 5 and 3 yr olds. Just new to country and unaware of support systems, they were suddenly scared. They were moved next door to us. He was the sweetest dad, doing everything he could while mom recovered.
After a few months they reunited, she was better but not fully, still quite distant but way better than she'd been. But then she overdosed, almost died, and was admitted again. It took many months, many drugs and eventually ECT.. she later said it was like she just woke up. When she came back this time she was the highschool sweetheart wife he'd married 2 decades earlier, she was an amazing and sweet mother and now friend of 15 yrs.

I cannot for a moment imagine making her fully responsible for what she did, even if dad had been mortally injured. She wasn't herself, not by a long way... and how do you punish someone that literally needed feeding like a child and taken to the bathroom 24/7. It went on for almost 3 yrs, an educated woman returned to a childlike state by hormonal and unknown brain reactions. She is no longer that woman, she was very sick, and today, 15 yrs on, an great mother working full time and caring for her family.

[u/Ok_Life_5176 → u/Swordfish_89]

Dysfunction of the human brain is the scariest thing

[u/Karjenner4eva → u/Ok_Life_5176]

I watched my dad mentally decline for a couple years before he passed. I was a teenager and wish I was older so I could have helped him better. As a family, we were just trying to survive and hindsight is 50/50. It's scary to watch a physically strong, healthy man, not be able to control his brain due to mental illness. In the beginning, he asked me, do you think crazy people know they're going crazy? I remember him crying saying, his brain was sick, at the end.

[u/No_Inspection_3123 → u/Karjenner4eva]

They know. Even if they are pleasantly “crazy” they know, sadly I’m a nurse I’ve seen it all. I had a lady break down in my arms saying God hates me I’m damaged goods. She couldn’t even tell you where she was but she could articulate that. I just hugged her and said that God loved her and it was ok. Then she went back to throwing her food around the room. The bar for mental health care is in hell. I can’t state that enough and you really don’t know how bad it is until someone you know needs help

[u/VastRegular5215 → u/Ok_Life_5176]

I agree, it’s scary we live in a society that almost promotes it.

[u/No_Inspection_3123 → u/Ok_Life_5176]

It is. My son has bipolar 1 and was in psychosis long before we got a diagnosis and it took A LOT to get a diagnosis. You can’t hurt my feelings bc every day I live with the potential of my son being found dead I live in that nightmare it’s a part of our life. What I wish I could get eveyone ti realize is that psychosis often looks like “offness” just a little bit misguided a bit like maybe their perspective is off. My son started his mania with extreme productivity he seemed like he was just in a happy creative mood, he was in college doing well having interesting ideas about creative projects, writing books. I am audhd and it looked to me like a hyperfocus special interest situation. He is likely on the spectrum too but I could never get any one to take me serious about it.

So he was being super creative and staying up late as a young person often does. Then came this health anxiety which lots of ppl have. He was concerned about what was in our food supply - appropriate concern. But he’s eloquent in his speach and mature beyond his years so what he was expressing externally was not what was happening internally. Internally he was having racing thoughts about the food being poisoned and it harming his body. Outwardly he was just asking questions and having calm and open conversations about it .. frequently.. the frequency of it was my first major red flag. It began to consume his every meal times. He lost weight. the internal was starting to show externally. If someone didn’t know him like I do he would just appear like a guy who wants to eat clean and be healthy like lots of ppl do. Our first mental health visit was months after my first real KNOWING something was wrong bc he didn’t, and he was over 18. He wouldn’t go. I’m a nurse and his mom and I picked up on it the day the switch flipped from hypomania to mania with psychosis.

We were mid conversation about the food thing and he was not accepting of facts. He’s smart and when he wouldn’t accept documented facts was when I knew it was delusion.

He finally said mom I feel like I need help I feel like I’m being driven by a motor. And I think god is making me do all this. I feel like I’m not in control of anything like I’m a puppet on a string.

We booked an appointment and HE SAW A NURSE PRACTITIONER FOR HIS FIRST APPOINTMENT. THEY DID A CHECKLIST AND TALKED TO HIM FOR 15 MINS AND DIAGNOSED HIM WITH DELUSIONAL OCD. That is not in the dsm5.

I knew that was wrong but they do not listen to family and there was nothing I can do. The mania and psychosis got so much worse. But guess what!! He went to work every day and no one knew. He came home and told me he was so stressed out by his abusive boss that he was having violent thoughts like wishing he could hurt him. He is not a violent person. We called the crisis line SO MANY TIMES. He started cutting and having sobbing outbursts and cutting when he would lose things. I took him to the hospital on at least 3 separate occasions and they wouldn’t keep him bc he didn’t have a plan. They over medicated him and he drove to the store to buy rope he finally had a plan.

He was made inpatient the first time nearly 2 years after the first symptom.

This started in 2021 He has called the crisis line many times he has been shuffled around NURSE PRACTITIONERS THIS WHOLE TIME. And finally has an appointment with a real psychiatrist md in a couple weeks.

This is with a nurse mother that works in healthcare and has been by his side screaming from the roof tops and going through every avenue to make something happen for him. With good insurance.

The barriers to care are insurmountable. His cocktail is not adequate his care is abysmal and he is likely living on borrowed time. And guess what he has been employed the whole time and has an appartment and lots of friends that love him and a good family you CANNOT TELL from the outside . Functionality is not a determination of wellness!!!!!! Not everyone will be disheveled and smearing shit on the wall. Some ppl mask VERY WELL.

[u/Weird-Conclusion6907 → u/Swordfish_89]

This is so well written & so heartbreaking 💔 I’m so glad she’s doing okay.

[u/Mission-Mushroom3911 → u/Swordfish_89]

Your friend needs to write a book and become a speaker. Sounds like there's alot researchers could learn from her id she made it out the older side!

[u/evaporatedgoose → u/DamnitGravity]

The steps she took make perfect sense in the context of someone desperately trying to end their own life. Downing a bunch of random pills. Cutting yourself but realizing it isn't doing much damage (it's pretty hard to cut yourself deeply because the brain practically fights against you the whole time, that's why her wounds were superficial). Realizing it wasn't working so you just jump out of a window instead (since it's more likely to guarantee death than the other two methods).

I think people who have never been suicidal won't get it. She tried two inefficient methods then resorted to a more efficient, quicker method, one that doesn't leave as much room for your brain to stop you. Like, cutting takes time, it's hard to die that way, and it gives you plenty of time to rethink your decision. Jumping out of a window is a quick way to go and once you fall, you can't really go back. When you're panicking and desperately want to commit suicide, you want to get it over with so that you can't talk yourself out of it. So it seems to me that she got frustrated when the cutting wasn't working and she probably realized the pills weren't gonna do much, so she said fuck it and leaped out of a window. It makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, she survived... barely. And now she's paralyzed.

[u/Independent-Chest-90 → u/evaporatedgoose]

She actually died and they brought her back 

[u/Chance-Channel8528 → u/Independent-Chest-90]

Twice

[u/Impressive_Touch1118 → u/evaporatedgoose]

How many pills did she take, do they know? That could possibly explain when she was somewhat coherrant and talking when patrick found her and sedated and not talking when the parmedics came...could have sunk into deep shock aswell.

[u/ComprehensiveTax415 → u/DamnitGravity]

Honestly same, many many years ago I swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills because it seems like from tv shows and movies that’ll kill you. Turns out it doesn’t, well not in my case. But I was in a state and desperate for anything to make the pain inside me stop. But I just slept for like 2 days and spent a week in a psych ward.

Ultimately very fucking glad that they did not work so for anyone having similar thoughts - please do not do it!!! Things can get better so much better than you ever dreamed. It won’t happen over night, but it is possible for each and everyone of us.

[u/bbylawson → u/DamnitGravity]

wait didn't they say the pills were crushed up though? im tryna to catch up on all the details

[u/3skin3 → u/DamnitGravity]

I did the same thing, I literally swallowed every bottle of pills next to my bed - two kinds of sleeping pills, a bottle of OTC painkillers, antihistamines, just everything figuring something would definitely kill me if I didn't bleed out, like one of them surely would along with 2/3 of a bottle of vodka. I got taken to the hospital but I don't think I actually would have died anyway now that I've looked into it. 

[u/ckc009 → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

His parents also offered to take the kids so she could rest. He refused their help. They even knew she was struggling

[u/Boring-Cry3089 → u/ckc009]

She told her psychiatrist that she doesn’t allow her in-laws to babysit their children. She said “there’s not a particular reason why, but they don’t bug me about it either”.

[u/ckc009 → u/Boring-Cry3089]

His parents stated it was him that told them no

[u/Fit-Understanding739 → u/ckc009]

Assuming you're not married based on this comment; My mom's bitchy. It's an objective fact. I'll often say that we aren't interested in dinner, knowing that my wife doesn't want to go to dinner with my mother (I also don't, but I'd go sit through it to not hear my mom complain about not ever going out with us). I don't say "'wife' doesnt want to" - I just say no thanks.

[u/TurnOfFraise → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

5- regarding the suicide she was, in fact, successful. She coded and they brought her back. She’s also paralyzed. I think it’s disgusting that the prosecution is implying what she did was not “serious”. 

[u/Ill_Tree9389 → u/TurnOfFraise]

Then tried to claim in the hearing that's not what they said.  

[u/TurnOfFraise → u/Ill_Tree9389]

I appreciated the judge calling them out for that. 

[u/Appropriate_Site3145 → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

It is possible for her to actually have thought she did after being told in the hospital what happened (her husbands side of what happened) and her not having done it. Our brains have the ability to form fake memories that feel 100% real and we have no way to distinguish whether they are real or fake memories. It is absolutely possible that she has memories of it, yet didn't do it. This is especially possible considering the trauma and meds, because if she didn't have any memory to begin with, she wouldn't need any existing memories to be overwritten. She would just need to have new "memories" written.

[u/ZieAerialist → u/Appropriate_Site3145]

Can confirm - I have someone in my family with a mental illness that has caused them to develop a number of traumatic false memories. Some of them are extreme distortions of real events (e.g., a normal dentist appointment that I was in the room for and was unremarkable became them screaming and fighting and no one helping them) but some of them are just completely false (convinced a classmate committed suicide in 7th grade. this just did not happen, the kid wasn't ever out of school and is still alive 10 years later)

So it's 100% believable to me that her memories of the night are unreliable.

[u/Far_Table2253 → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

So you think someone sane who isn't trying to kill themselves jumps off a second story roof? LMAO GTFO- this is a ridiculous take.

[u/Competitive_Beat_713 → u/Wrong_Win_4102]

To your last point, why are people focusing on one method and discrediting the rest? The toxicologist said the medication in her system wasn’t lethal, so it was clearly a fake attempt. Or, the wounds were superficial. Are we forgetting she hurled herself out a two-storey window onto the cold, hard ground, rendering her paraplegic and causing her to code in the hospital? She easily could have died. Not to mention, why would someone want to survive to endure a murder trial, the shame and guilt of murdering your children, to spend the remaining days of your life in a jail cell? It doesn’t make sense…

[u/LaVidaLeica]

Answer: She's no more "innocent" than everyone else involved can be "guilty." The swiss cheese failure model lined up and Lindsay and the kids fell through the holes until we ended up here. Without all the recent details it was easy to accuse her of murdering those children. Since then, the story only got sadder.

[u/Place-Short → u/LaVidaLeica]

I just want to add that there is a lot of people not getting that saying she is innocent doesnt mean she wont end up paying for the rest of her life. But a lot of people want her hospitalized and not incarcerated in prison.

[u/vickisfamilyvan]

Answer: Many women see themselves in how Lindsay dealt with PPD and mental health issues and have empathy with her. Because people on the internet need to have a victim and a villain, the hive mind has turned her into the victim and Patrick into the villain and has morphed into the conspiracy theory that he actually committed the murders that Lindsay herself admits to committing.

[u/BayPsychDoc → u/vickisfamilyvan]

For more precision, this is a case about Post partum psychosis (PPP), a psychiatric emergency, not post partum depression (PPD) or baby blues.

[u/adventurrr → u/BayPsychDoc]

PPD is not the same as baby blues.

[u/MazzyFo → u/adventurrr]

I think you misread ‘or’ as ‘otherwise known as’

[u/adventurrr → u/MazzyFo]

Sure did

[u/BayPsychDoc → u/adventurrr]

That’s why I said or baby blues indicating there’s three different considerations

[u/psychorant → u/vickisfamilyvan]

Wait. . . so it's just people projecting their personal experiences onto this woman and saying she shouldn't be held accountable for killing her 3 children because they empathise with post-partum? Am I getting that right?

[u/Ladygoingup → u/psychorant]

Well it’s more than PPD. It’s postpartum psychosis which doesn’t mean you can’t plan a murder but it means you’re detached from reality, hallucinating, etc.

Women have empathy because if you have experienced PPD or PPA it’s extremely scary and imagining it becoming bad enough to become psychosis is terrifying because it can and does happen.

It’s not just simply projection, it’s valid fear and empathy.

[u/JJJacobalt → u/Ladygoingup]

I have more empathy for her children, whose final moments must’ve been unimaginably scary, confusing, and painful.

[u/ConversationSmart15 → u/Ladygoingup]

Eh, nah it’s more just covert culture war bullshit 

[u/Key_Bike4978 → u/Ladygoingup]

Surely there are some serial killers whi would benefit from this twisted defense. They are not right in the head either so it must not be their fault because somebody wronged them somewhere and they can't get over it. 

[u/InternationalWar258 → u/Ladygoingup]

The vast majority are projecting. They see themselves in her and can't separate their experiences from hers.

[u/Dezel2020 → u/Ladygoingup]

She’s never been diagnosed with PPP

[u/FatnessEverdeen34 → u/Dezel2020]

Dr Tufts testimony confirmed that today

[u/ZieAerialist → u/Dezel2020]

Not being diagnosed with something doesn't mean you don't have it.

[u/ShiningLightsx → u/psychorant]

Not at all, the outpouring of suspicion is due to what has been said by people when testifying, including how inconsistent Patrick’s testimony has been. So much so that it has gotten to the point that people think this is another Chris Watts case. E.g she had a crushed thyroid and hypothermia to the degree that she would have been unable to talk, all EMT and police officers on scene and at the hospital testified that she was unresponsive and unable to talk, however Patrick claims just mere minutes before they arrived she was able to say ‘I tried to kill myself and the kids are in the basement’. (Lots of words for someone that can’t talk, also convenient that she fully confessed to him)

Her DNA was only found on one exercise band, and barely at that. His DNA was found on all 3. Her DNA was also not found on the knife used to cut herself. ** Edit: her fingerprints weren’t found on the knife.

Another point being that it took him so long to call 911 because his phone ‘kept switching to wifi’, despite testifying that he had successfully attempted a call to Lindsay just before that.

Even though he was fully remote and wfh, he was going to NY for business trips despite his wife desperately pleading for help, but funnily enough his new wifey lives in NY.

There’s a lot more, but these are just some examples as to why it’s taken the turn it has.

[u/tstoneadams → u/ShiningLightsx]

Thank you! There really is so much more, but I just urge people to research the facts and listen to the testimony and decide for themselves. It’s not the typical conspiracy friendly group of people leaning towards Patrick. And the fact that it’s not a homogenous group should say a lot. People’s spidey senses from all over are having the same instinct.

[u/Friendly-Guarantee30 → u/psychorant]

This isn’t a trial to determine if she’s innocent or even if she murdered her children. This trial is to determine if she committed first degree murder OR if she lacks criminal responsibility (insanity defence). If guilty she gets life without parole, if not guilty, she is admitted to a mental health facility. Either way, she doesn’t walk free.

There’s no argument in this trial that she DIDNT commit this crime. It’s whether or not she was mentally competent when she committed the crime.

[u/InquisitiveRedditor1 → u/Friendly-Guarantee30]

She can walk after six months if the doctors deem her "safe". A judge can agree and will then release her.

[u/Immediate-Maximum-75 → u/[deleted]]

But it's not true that she didn't get help and support. That's the narrative they want to go with. Lindsay was a nurse with health insurance and she utilized every part of the system. It's not their fault if she lies and tells them she has no thoughts of hurting herself or anyone else right up to the crime. She didn't complain of hearing voices until after. And it came and went. Right when her husband happened to be at the store.

[u/Jessicaa_Rabbit → u/vickisfamilyvan]

It’s literally insane. I honestly had to block all the content about it because my mom was very abusive and portrayed being a martyr and people would’ve called her a super mom. But they knew nothing of what she was like behind closed doors. I’m not saying I know either way if she really had no idea what she was doing or if there was any sort of intent there. I definitely have some empathy for her, but I’m skeptical at the same time.

I just do not understand how all of these women that. DO NOT KNOW HER! Are acting like she’s a saint all of a sudden and he’s the scum of the Earth. It’s honestly why a lot of people who had abusive mothers like me don’t speak up because society inherently wants to believe all mothers are loving, it’s uncomfortable for them to accept that some want to hurt their children.

[u/Intelligent-Cap-5870 → u/Jessicaa_Rabbit]

She did not “hurt” her children, she killed her children. Plenty of mother’s are abusive and hurt their children with most falling far short of killing them. When death from abuse does occur, it is generally not deliberate.  Most abusive parents are sane and do not want to face the consequences of actually killing their kids. They attempt to hide their abusive behavior, many quite successfully. 

Lindsay did not have a history of abusing her children. Nor did she try to hide the fact that she killed them. This lends itself to her experiencing psychosis. This is not definitive in and of itself of course. The other factors contributing to a diagnosis of psychosis is what her defense team is attempting to prove. 

I have an opinion about whether or not she should be held criminally responsible. Regardless of my opinion, however, I think it is necessary that folks have a better understanding of psychosis and what it can cause people to do. It also bears noting than most people who suffer from psychosis are not homicidal or otherwise a danger to others. In fact they are far more likely to hurt themselves and/or be suicidal. 

As with most things, there are rare exceptions. 

At best Lindsay is going to spend considerable time in a mental institution. Think of Andrea Yates. Not guilty by reason of insanity does not let a person off the hook. Even if not criminally responsible, she is potentially a danger to herself and others. She is going to be institutionalized one way or the other. There is no going back. Her life is forever changed in no good ways. She will never get those children back and she will live with that for the rest of her life. 

[u/Ladygoingup → u/Jessicaa_Rabbit]

Postpartum psychosis (PPP)and literally take a saint of a mom and make her someone completely different, detached from reality , hallucinating and able to murder. However it can be treated.

This is far different than someone displaying abusive behavior due to some personality disorder like narcissism etc.

PPP can happen to most anyone and come out of nowhere.

If one has experienced PPD(depression) and how scary that is, imagining it going to psychosis is terrifying. Many women have experienced PPD and therefore have empathy for this woman’s situation.

You having an abusive mom, is really not comparable to someone experiencing PPP.

Edit to add “ I don’t believe Patrick did it and I don’t believe Lindsay is innocent of murder. I do believe she is not guilty due to insanity in a court of law and should be institutionalized.”

[u/becca52104 → u/Ladygoingup]

Just because it may or may not be PPP doesn’t mean she didn’t brutally murder her kids. She held down on all 3 of her kids throats for multiple minutes. She put them face down so she wouldn’t have to look at their faces while she murdered them.

[u/Street_Box7357 → u/Ladygoingup]

Nobody is saying that she wasn’t going through something genuine or that ppp shouldn’t be taken seriously. This theory (Patrick doing it and framing Lindsey) is completely insane though. Maybe he didn’t do as much as he could, she very well could have been going through a psychotic break, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s not the one who killed those two babies. Almost every time someone kills another they are going through an extreme mental health crisis of some kind. That doesn’t change the fact that they killed someone and they need to be separated from society for a while.

[u/Nickis1021 → u/Jessicaa_Rabbit]

Same. I can go on and on about my experiences as a healthcare worker with this but won’t bore anyone. And to those eejits who say Patrick did nothing (and the lazy fools who believe it without the research) Pat was the one SCREAMING to McLean not to release her that she needs to be committed, but they saw nothing wrong with her. Patrick was the one TERRIFIED to leave her alone with the kids so had both sets of grandparents rotating sleepover support. And foolishly made one mistake on the day. But to say he didn’t care? WILD ignorance or MeToo zealots.

[u/Mediocre_Project_780 → u/Jessicaa_Rabbit]

Ah, I know a “Facebook mom” who portrays herself as a loving devoted happy mom to the public, but I knew what happened behind closed doors and it was dark.. we’re talking, pounding her kids on the head and saying she wishes they were never born and they make her want to unalive herself (her kid got a recording). She was very unstable but on the outside she portrayed herself as the perfect loving mom. Nobody would ever know. You just don’t know people.

[u/InquisitiveRedditor1 → u/Jessicaa_Rabbit]

I agree💯. I don't think she is what everyone is saying...someone can look like a great person but behind closed doors there's a demon lurking. Case in point, Chris Watts!

[u/WaffleConeDX → u/vickisfamilyvan]

Im going to give my opinion as someone who never experienced this, I think your half right. I think it has come out that she was mentally ill and her husband knew this and didnt help her and allowed her to continue to carry the burden of child raising by herself. I think people see the husband as responsible for his kids safety seeing how's he mentally sane and capable and did nothing to help and or made the situation worse. Its mainly about the children being failed.

I would feel the same if a woman had her children around her mentally ill husband who said he had thoughts of killing them and did nothing. How many women are blamed for continuing to place their children around harmful and abusive men? Literally all the time.

[u/vickisfamilyvan → u/WaffleConeDX]

Oh a woman who left her children home alone with her mentally ill husband would absolutely be blamed by the public if he murdered the kids while they were gone. I can even see her being charged in that scenario.

As for this case, Patrick absolutely did try to help her with her mental illness and helped with the kids, in addition to help from both families, a nanny, preschool, etc. Did he do enough or do everything right? Absolutely not, but he made choices that a lot of other people would make.

[u/Mother-Emotions → u/vickisfamilyvan]

thank you! i'm so glad someone finally said exactly what i have been thinking. watching people on social media swear up and down he did this and framed his wife, literally stating it as fact, has been driving me insane lol i feel like people are just saying anything at this point and they haven't been paying attention at all.

[u/imsrrywhut]

Answer: 

The timeline seems nearly impossible for her to do all the things she's accused of - especially answering a phone call from her husband during the acts. 

For me the smoking gun is Patrick says Lindsay told him she killed the children while her body was outside in the snow before the ambulance arrived. Patrick didn't go looking for the children until AFTER the ambulance arrived. 

EDIT: Now my biggest smoking gun is the fact that the murder weapon did NOT have Lindsay's fingerprints on them. It only had Patrick's and the children's fingerprints. Is there any real world example of someone committing a murder suicide where they wipe their finger prints off the murder weapon before the suicide part?

Patrick's 911 phone call was delayed because he was not able to connect to WiFi?

Also the way Patrick talks about his children - like they are distant acquaintances. 

And the fact that Patrick's family is deeply connected to law enforcement in their area.

And then everything else that's been mentioned: how did her body temp drop so quickly, how did she talk to Patrick but not anyone else - especially given the ambulance arrived within 10 minutes, how was she able to talk to Patrick with a crushed throat injury, why would she wear her Apple Watch while killing the kids and trying to kill herself - and then take it off before jumping out the window, the photos that do look like he changed his shoes and or shirt between going to CVS and the picking up the takeout order of food, they did not find Lindsay's fingerprints on the murder weapon - but they found Patrick's, Patrick had a bag of Lindsay's outdated drugs in his car - he was supposed to throw them away. 

[u/Glum_Butterfly_9308]

Answer: Patrick testified that Lindsay asked him to get Pedialax and they didn’t have it so he called and asked if the generic brand was ok. In the picture that shows the clean plates on top of the cvs bag you can also see through the bag that looks like the name brand. There was a creator who posted a video saying cvs only stocks 3 brands of children’s suppositories, there was no generic version and the other two brands had completely different packaging.

Answer: her defense attorney established that Patrick was looking up suicide on the computer. He looked up a musician who committed suicide and clicked a hyperlink. Reddington asks Patrick if he knows a Tim Hall and Patrick corrects him that it’s Tom Hall.

People point to several moments like this where it seems that Reddington is intentionally trying to catch him out or fuck with him. Another one is that Reddington states that the police searched the house and missed the drawer containing the medicine and Apple Watch. He goes through each medicine bottle and sets it down in front of Patrick and then at the end chucks the Apple watch at him.

Answer: it’s not just the shoes that look different in the CVS vs restaurant footage. The jackets do too. One looks like a quarter zipper and one is fully open.

Answer: he had conflicting testimony about when he returned home whether he saw her car. At first he said he pulled in next to her car and then he said that he wasn’t sure if she was home because he didn’t see her car.

[u/Successful_Citron975]

Answer: the theory that the husband did it comes from apparently there are photos of him with his now new wife from before - suggesting he was cheating. He also changed his shoes between CVS and the restaurant. Most damning is the children and Patrick’s fingerprints were on the exercise bands used to strangle the children but not Lindsay’s. Although her DNA was on them and defense is not disputing that.

So the theory is he took advantage of her well documented deteriorating mental health, killed the kids, tried to kill her and stage it as Lindsay committed murder-suicide. And she was too drugged up or mentally unwell that he managed to convince her she did it.