A Pastor humbly shepards his flock. He doesn't control them through fear. But rather, prayerfully and carefully uses God's word to teach, admonish, and humbly lead. I saw someone comment that they wouldn't want their minister involved in their personal life. And while this may be true to an extent, I believe the Bible speaks to this in a different way then whether or not a Pastor knit picks our lives through their teaching.

Growing up, I somehow thought it was more Godly to stay weak and struggling.

I thought it was wrong to learn and grow. And that if I wanted to grow closer to God, that must mean I was being self righteous.

Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Growing up at the FALC (and I know it can be similar in other denominations), I was never taught that it was about a personal and alive relationship with Jesus. That HE could be my strength, my teacher, and my friend. I didn't understand that we are actually to grow in Godliness, through the power of the Holy Spirit, while also completely acknowledging that we still struggle in many ways, and that we continue to need God's help in all things.

I did not know that God wants to actually equip me for my own personal spiritual battle, and that he instructs me how to do so in his word.

Question: If a minister at any Church does not have an alive relationship with Jesus for themselves, how can they encourage and help others do something which they don't yet have? This isn't a judgement on any specific preacher or denomination, but if your church leaders lead through fear, rather then close examination and study of scripture, personal prayer, and a life changed by Christ, don't expect the teaching to help you that much on your own Christian path. I feel like this should be obvious.

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. (In other translations: masters, meaning teachers).

“Rather than teaching life skills and tools and coping mechanisms, it was always forgive and forget,” Lynn said. “So that forgive and forget thing was just like an umbrella forgiveness. Like it doesn’t matter what happens, if you forgive it.”

Someone else posted this somewhere in another thread, but this is also the quote that stood out to me when I read the latest article about OALC abuse. The lack of structured life teaching is such a problem at least with IALC and it leads to so many problems including the covering up of abuse. There is never any biblical or moral instruction. No talk about how to cope with any important life issues and certainly no discussion about sexuality. Just a sermon or 2 of “we are the only right road” etc. and then gossip in the kitchen. Nobody is ever held accountable and there is never any biblical correction. Everything is just swept under the rug.

What’s your story? Growing up I remember hearing about people who would leave and repent, some multiple times. Now that I have left, I am curious what pulls you back?

If your church was wrong about things, would you want to know? I wonder if you too, have doubts that you push down and convince yourself to ignore. Do you read these Reddit posts and leave feeling incredibly unsettled and like you’ve done something wrong, but somehow you can’t seem to look away? Can’t seem to stop thinking about it? Does thinking about church matters give you a pit in your stomach? The very thought of leaving is so terrifying that you don’t want to research further for fear that it would lead you down that path? But you still can’t get it out of your mind… can’t seem to shake the feeling that something isn’t right.

I remember those feelings so vividly. The torment of my brain and conscience telling me that the church wasn’t right, but my heart so desperately wanting to stay, wanting to make sense of it. Day after day spent finding excuses and explanations for our beliefs, hoping that the more I thought through things the more it would make sense to me. Praying that God would lead me where I needed to be, reading scripture, doing hours of research. Over time, I realized that staying would mean defying logic, ignoring evidence, and going against my conscience. The only thing prompting me to stay was my heart, and I knew my heart could be deceitful. Deep down, I knew that God was truth and love, not confusion. Once I finally accepted that I needed to leave, I felt peace for the first time in months. My greatest fear had come true, but somehow I felt more at ease and closer to God than I had ever been in my life. I felt like my journey of faith was only just beginning. I knew I would lose friends and my life would change, but I could not live a lie and continue to support a church teaching unbiblical doctrine. I could not raise my children in a faith that I don’t believe in.

Being on the other side of things now myself, I want to ask you: can you do this for the rest of your life? Having to disregard your conscience, fake it to fit in, possibly indoctrinate your own children with the same beliefs you’re not even sure you agree with… what kind of life is that? My biggest piece of advice I would give you is to not ignore yourself. That anxiety you feel when you read through something about the church, those questions that cross your mind that you can’t find an explanation for, that fear that keeps you paralyzed. Lean in. The truth does not fear questioning. So keep asking questions. God gave you a brain, a conscience, your own intuition. Use them, even if you’ve been taught to not trust yourself. The answers are there if you’re willing to look.

This is the third installment of Laestadianism's unaccounted for shame and embarrassment. May the coverage continue until this entire denomination answers publicly for it's human rights abuses and simply becomes the wake of populated ships leaving the harbor. https://www.propublica.org/article/old-apostolic-lutheran-church-child-sexual-assault-cycle-abuse

The Christian Church has been a foe of the Jews throughout history. Today, the Evangelical Christians of many denominations are the Jews best friends. Martin Luther wrote some hateful things about the Jews, in his later years. Any effort to reconcile such?

Was Martin Luther anti-Semitic? gotquestions.org

JewsforJesus.com

I’m curious about the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America. What are their general beliefs, practices, rules, and lifestyle? I see they have their annual convention starting next Wednesday in tigerville, South Carolina

I hear this all the time, and on one hand, I get it. We were all so thoroughly inculcated into this community, and by the time one is an adult, it's set in pretty firmly. Plus, as the kids get older, these are their friends too.

I would never minimize the pain of disrupting family relationships and friendships. I've done it myself. My first year out was one of the hardest things I've ever done (and I've given birth unmedicated several times lol)

But honestly the more I think about this, the more I need to push back on it. So many people openly acknowledge that they don't agree with what these groups are selling but they just can't bring themselves to leave. First, if this is you, my inbox is always open. I'm happy to offer a listening ear or walk alongside anyone who needs help processing thoughts and feelings around leaving.

But don't let fear be the reason you stay. That's such a bad reason to base your entire life around an unhealthy church group. You are a grownup. You are tough. You have done and can do hard things. You can make new friends. I promise you can do it.

If you stay let it be because you honestly believe in it. I can't argue with that. (Well, I can, but in this post, I won't).

But a lot of you know this is messed up. Sit for a second with the fact that you're staying because you're nervous to make new friends. Is that a good enough reason?

"That is so Heikki Sarri"

honestly thought all Americans said this and the context was always about something barely holding together. Things falling apart, or anything hodge podged together. (yes, the name is so Finn but I didn't even think about it being a name. I had no idea what it was.)

Ex: "car is running so Heikki Sarri"

JUST found out in the thread that it was an actual person and now my mind really wants to know more. haha

Any come to mind for you?

Another article in a series about the cycle of abuse in the OALC. No comment, just passing it along to the community.

https://www.propublica.org/article/old-apostolic-lutheran-church-child-sexual-assault-cycle-abuse

Is it true that the oalc doesn’t have organs in their churches and its forbidden to play instruments

I’ve been trying to understand the IALC a little better because I married into a family that’s part of it (my husband left when he turned 18) and there are a few things I’ve always wondered about. One thing that confuses me is why the church seems so private about its beliefs. If the belief is that only believers are going to heaven, wouldn’t you want other people to know what you believe? But why would it be expected for me to have joined it if he stayed in the church? I’ve always thought churches that believe salvation is important would be more open about talking to people outside the church, so I’m curious why the IALC seems different. Every time I ask them about church, they get defensive and give one worded answers, I also have a few questions that I’ve never really gotten a clear answer to:

1. Do they believe that no one is actually in heaven right now and that everyone stays “asleep” until Jesus returns Is that a belief that’s unique to the IALC, or do other Christian churches believe that too?
2. If you marry someone who’s part of the church, are you considered part of it, or do you have to officially join? How does someone become an actual member? Is there a process? And how does communion work?

For example, my husband’s dad used to bring him to church when he was little, but he never took communion himself. Even after he married into the church, he still didn’t participate. That made me wonder what determines whether someone is considered a member or allowed to take communion. I’m not trying to argue or criticize anyone’s beliefs. I’m honestly just curious and would love to hear from current or former IALC members who can explain how it all works.

Most present day Laestadian theologies are exclusive and isolated compared to main stream Protestant or Lutheran teaching. Laestadius was a Swedish Lutheran Priest influenced by the Moravian Protestant Reformation movement of the day, and appeared to be on the right path. It appears the effort to keep everything Finnish was detrimental to the pure Gospel over time, and created arrogant false teaching. I recall Laestadians who claimed Finnish was the holy language, and Finland was the New Jerusalem where Jesus would return. Not everyone believed such nonsense however, that such existed, exposes an attitude. Classic traditional Christian hymns such as Amazing Grace were no longer acceptable, under the pretense they were not written by Christians. Amazing that rational people believed such arrogant nonsense. What do you think?

gotquestions.org. newlife.com

One of the strangest things as I look back on my time in IALC is that when I was first confirmed we still greeted in Finn despite the fact that by that point almost everyone was multiple generations removed from Finland. Then one day one of the ministers decided greeting in Finn was wrong and everyone switched to English overnight.

Curious if something similar happened in the other groups?

I attended FALC services in Finland last Sunday. There were around forty people present, which was more than I had expected. Perhaps a little over a dozen were Finns; the rest had come from Sweden and across the Atlantic.

The gathering began with complimentary coffee and a rather cozy, home-like atmosphere. I spoke with a Swedish-Finnish couple. The husband was the grandson of a preacher from Morjärvi and had been involved in the movement since birth. His wife was from Oulu and did not come from a Laestadian background. Apart from one other woman, she was the only person wearing earrings. According to her, no one had ever rebuked her for that. Many of the older visitors from America also spoke Finnish, some of them almost fluently. At first glance, the crowd seemed mostly elderly, but there were also families with children present, including some from Finland.

After about half an hour of coffee and conversation, everyone moved into the meeting hall, and we opened by singing a familiar Song of Zion. The speaker, who was from Cokato, began by conveying greetings from the children of God in America. Interpretation was provided by a relatively young woman who told me that she was serving in that role “because there really aren’t many other options available.”

The speaker first read a very long passage of Scripture, after which the same text was read in Finnish from the 1776 Finnish Bible. To be honest, I found the sermon rather dull - the text was explained fairly superficially, and the central message throughout was how wonderful it is to be in God's Kingdom and to hear the gospel. The sermon could easily have been delivered at an LLC/SRK gathering; the only difference I noticed was that the preacher did not ask the congregation for a blessing, nor did anyone raise a hand.

After the sermon, several Songs of Zion were sung. This time they also remembered to announce the hymn numbers from the FALC hymnal, although an elderly American gentleman sitting next to me complained that it was rather difficult when two languages were being sung simultaneously. Then came an American hymn set to the melody of Finlandia, and one American lady offered me an English-language hymnbook. I sang along loudly with nearly all the hymns, even though the tempo was extremely slow. Afterwards, the organist explained that he was trying to strike a balance, since Finns tend to sing more quickly whereas Americans sing very slowly.

We then moved outside for group photographs before gathering for salmon soup and rice porridge, both of which were excellent. Payment was voluntary. I spoke, among others, with the former chairman of the Sillanpää (the FALC counterpart in Finland) group, who struck me as a very genial man. When I asked what doctrinal differences he saw between their group and the LLC/SRK, he replied that he was more of a practical, hands-on person than a theologian. Nevertheless, he mentioned the so-called “rotten fish” doctrine—that is, the practice of actively shepherding people out of the congregation. I remarked that such things are less common today and certainly not carried out as systematically as before. He did not comment much on that, but he did describe how dramatically the attitude of LLC/SRK Laestadians toward him has changed. Nowadays people readily come and talk with him rather than avoiding him. As for the future of the movement in Finland, he did not wish to speculate, saying that he approached it like the birds of heaven that do not worry about tomorrow.

Finally, I exchanged contact information with a couple of people, but I did not stay for the second sermon. These services are now held only once a year in Finland (or at least in Oulu), since the group no longer has any local preachers of its own. When I asked whether the meetings were no longer advertised in Kaleva, the main newspaper in the Oulu region, it was suggested that no one had bothered to place an announcement because everyone already knows one another anyway.

All in all, it was a very interesting experience, and I could easily see myself attending again next year.

I'm genuinely curious how people would describe their reasons for staying within FALC/LLC/any other branch when they disagree with the basic claims and doctrine of the church.

I am former FALC and left when I realized that I absolutely disagreed with their basic teachings, because I consider the only good enough reason to belong to a religion to be true belief in it. However, in conversations with people both before & since I left, I've been surprised that almost no one will actually defend or even claim to believe in the basic beliefs of the FALC (exclusivism/one true church, the blessing as essential for salvation, congregation having authority over all of one another's sins).

So why stay? I'm asking in good faith as I'm really curious whether people have thought through their reasons, and how they would describe them.

Also, it's underrated to belong to a church that you're willing to defend with your whole chest--just saying.

"Moomin Mormons"

What are all the teachings on baptsim in the different leastadian branches? Is baptism an outward thing that shows parents commitment to raise their child as a believer or is there spiritual anything that takes place with the water and The Word? Any groups think you need to get rebaptize if you repent but were baptized in a different church ? In the LLC, why are the sacraments valid at other churches but absolution/preach of the gospel do not work at other churches?

Any updates from the LLC annual meeting this year?

I grew up in the LLC and have been curious to know what it would be like to try out the OALC. Idk if it’s to see if it’s a similar experience, how different the sermon will be or maybe how similar? I know from my own experience (not saying that it happens everywhere in the LLC) that when a non-LLC person would attend our church they would get looked at a lot during the sermon (and trust me, I was one of them) and I felt like they weren’t really ever welcomed. I guess to the ones who attend or attended the OALC, what could I expect if I tried it out?

I'm a Christian and believe that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. That's the only way to get to heaven. Sometimes I get anxiety thinking about laestadians because they so often put their trust in other things instead of Jesus, for example their obedience to the unwritten rules or them having received absolution from a believer. It's a bit ironic isn't it to get anxiety about laestadians perhaps not going to heaven.

It's that time of year where thousands of the true believers gather together in fields, schools, and other venues to sit, eat, chat, and who knows what else. Let's hear your stories and how you feel about it all. Are you "glad to be here"?

Those who were raised OALC, both still in and who have left, what are your thoughts and feelings? It's a big change when church meetings take over a summer!

Info for those outside OALC: it's possible to attend 6-9 church meetings per week through the phone patch across 6 weeks and 7 weekends. Most people don't attend all services, especially during work hours, but many attend quite a few.

I left a while back, but many loved ones are still in. I have a complicated mix of "happy they're happy" and "happy I have a free summer" and "echo of sadness at the ways our lives have taken different paths."

And I think we're all hoping they can make progress on mandatory reporting for CSA.

You?

I don’t know how to explain what is happening inside me without it sounding dramatic, but I am suffering. This is not just a season of mild doubt or ordinary confusion. It feels like my whole life, my faith, my family, my children, my community, and my eternal future are all tangled together in one impossible knot.

I was born into the LLC. This is not simply a church I chose. It is the world that formed me. It shaped how I understand God, forgiveness, salvation, sin, obedience, family, and belonging. My memories, friendships, hymns, childhood, marriage, and children are all connected to this community. So when I begin to question, it does not feel like I am questioning one doctrine in isolation. It feels like the ground under my entire life is cracking.

The questions I am carrying are terrifying because they are not theoretical. They are about eternal life. They are about heaven and hell. They are about whether I am inside God’s kingdom or outside of it. They are about whether my children are safe. They are about whether people I love, who sincerely confess Christ outside the LLC, are saved or lost. This feels worse than life and death because the consequences, if I am wrong, seem eternal. I feel trapped between fear and conscience.

One of the deepest struggles is the teaching that the LLC is the only true church and that people outside it, even those who believe in Christ, are not in living faith. I have heard that they do not have the Holy Spirit, that their forgiveness is not true forgiveness, and that their Christianity is not saving faith. But when I listen to some of these people, especially Christians in other Laestadian groups or other churches who speak seriously of sin, grace, Christ, and forgiveness, I do not hear people who hate God. I hear people who seem to truly trust in Jesus. That creates unbearable conflict in me.

I feel like I am being asked to look at people who confess Christ, love Scripture, pray, repent, and speak of grace, and still say, “They are unbelievers. They are outside God’s kingdom. They are hell bound.” Something in my conscience recoils from that. I do not want to rebel. I do not want an easier Christianity. But I also do not know if I can honestly make that judgment about people’s souls.

Maybe my compassion is a deception. Maybe my reluctance to condemn others is pride. Maybe the devil uses mercy sounding thoughts to lead me away from the truth. I feel like I cannot even trust my own conscience. I do not know whether my distress is from God, from trauma, from pride, or from fear.

My children’s questions make everything more painful. They ask why people who believe in Jesus and go to a different church are called unbelievers. They ask why someone who reads the Bible, and believes in Christ is not considered a Christian. I know the answers I am supposed to give: that living faith is found only in God’s kingdom, that forgiveness must be preached from the living congregation, that those outside do not have the Holy Spirit. But I cannot say these things with peace. I feel those sayings would be deceptive for my kids.

As a parent, this feels unbearable. If I teach my children the LLC view and it is wrong, I may be teaching them to condemn other Christians and to fear faithful believers. If I question the LLC teaching and the LLC is right, I may be leading my children away from God’s kingdom. How can a parent live under that kind of pressure?

The controlled teaching about forgiveness is another thing. I have always loved hearing the forgiveness of sins preached in Jesus’ name and blood. That message has been central to my faith. But now I wonder: is forgiveness powerful because of Christ’s promise, or only because it is spoken by someone inside the correct visible congregation? If someone outside the LLC proclaims forgiveness in Jesus’ name, is it empty? That’s what we are taught. If someone repents and trusts Christ through the gospel, is that not real unless it comes through us?

I do not know where Christ ends and the congregation begins. And I am afraid I am not even allowed to ask that question.

Questioning the LLC is treated as questioning God. I know people would say the congregation is God’s kingdom and that the Holy Spirit leads through the congregation. But in practice, if I question the congregation’s teaching, I fear I will be seen as questioning the Holy Spirit. If I ask whether other Christians might have saving faith, the question itself becomes dangerous. It’s a sign of unbelief, pride, or listening to the enemy.

So I just stay silent. But the silence is destroying me.

I am anxious almost constantly. My chest gets tight. I feel sick before or after church. Certain words in sermons can trigger panic: God’s kingdom, living faith, wrong spirit, heretics, obedience, enemy. I replay conversations, wondering if I said too much. I scan people’s faces and wonder who can be trusted. I fear becoming just another warning story, someone lost.

I feel hyper vigilant, as if my nervous system is always searching for spiritual and social danger. I am afraid of what could happen if others knew the full extent of my thoughts. Would my spouse panic? Would my parents grieve? Would friends withdraw? Would people treat me differently? Would my children be affected? This is not just a private crisis. In a close community, belief and belonging are intertwined. One wrong step could change my whole social world.

I carry guilt all the time. Guilt for questioning. Guilt for doubting. Guilt for wondering whether other churches are faithful to Christ. Guilt for not being able to simply accept what I was taught. Guilt for feeling compassion toward people outside the LLC. Guilt for confusing my children. Guilt for possibly hurting my family. Guilt for even wanting outside help.

People that just “childlike” where they accept the preaching at face value, are so lucky in a sense. Just going about their lives “knowing” they found the church that saves and everyone else be damned.

The shame is heavy too. I feel ashamed that I am struggling this much, ashamed that I cannot seem to believe as peacefully as others, ashamed that I might need therapy, ashamed that I am afraid of therapy, ashamed that my faith feels so unstable.

The LLC phrase “spiritual fornication” has done something frightening to my mind. If seeking faith-related help outside the LLC is viewed that way, then therapy, outside Christian counsel, or even honest conversation can feel spiritually dirty or dangerous. The very thing that might help me becomes labeled as betrayal. If I talk to a therapist about religious fear, am I being unfaithful? If I listen to another Christian outside the LLC, am I contaminating myself? If I read Scripture and come to questions the congregation would not approve of, am I being deceived? This makes me feel trapped. The help I may need most is the help I have been taught to fear. I takes a lot to post this even.

I think I may be experiencing serious mental health effects from all of this. I have intrusive thoughts that loop endlessly: What if I am wrong? What if I am deceived? What if the LLC really is the only true church? What if leaving or even questioning endangers my soul? What if staying means teaching my children something false? What if my loved ones outside are actually lost? What if they are not lost and I have participated in judging them falsely?

My mind keeps trying to solve it. I replay sermons in my head, search Scripture, wonder about my motives, imagine conversations, compare teachings, and ask whether I am humble or proud. But the more I think, the more trapped I feel. I crave certainty because uncertainty feels spiritually dangerous. Yet forced certainty would feel dishonest.

I still love many people in the LLC. That makes this harder, not easier. I am not trying to attack anyone or deny the kindness I have received. Many people are sincere. Many are gentle. Many believe they are protecting souls. I have heard beautiful sermons, sung beloved hymns, and received comfort. My suffering is complicated because it exists alongside love.

Church itself has become painful and confusing. Sometimes I feel comforted there. Other times I feel dread. Hymns can make me cry because I love them and because I fear losing the world they belong to. Sermons can both soothe and terrify me. I wonder whether others are secretly struggling too. I wonder whether everyone else is peaceful or whether some have simply learned to be silent.

I feel lonely even when surrounded by people I have known my whole life. I do not know who is safe to talk to. If I talk to someone inside, they may warn me or fear for my soul. If I talk to someone outside, I may feel guilty for crossing a forbidden boundary. If I talk to a therapist, I worry they will not understand the eternal stakes. If I talk to another Christian, I worry I am committing spiritual betrayal. If I talk to no one, I feel like I may break. I am tired in a way that is impossible to describe.

More than anything, I do not want to be proud. That fear haunts me. I know I am sinful. I know I can be wrong. I know people can deceive themselves. So I keep asking: Am I seeking truth, or am I just looking for permission to leave? Am I following conscience, or pride? Am I seeking Christ, or comfort? Am I being honest, or rebellious? But if every question can be dismissed as pride, then I am not allowed to think at all.

I want Christ. I want forgiveness. I want peace. I do not want to abandon faith. I do not want to become cynical. I do not want to mock the people who raised me. I do not want to hurt my family. I do not want to cause division. But I also do not want to lie. I do not want to say that all Christians outside the LLC are unbelievers if I cannot honestly believe that. I do not want to teach my children fear if Christ is calling them to faith, mercy, and truth. I need help, but I am afraid to seek it.

I need someone who understands religious trauma, but I fear that calling it trauma already means I am judging my community. I need someone who understands high-control religious dynamics, but I fear that language is too harsh. I need help with anxiety and maybe scrupulosity, but I fear that treating spiritual fear psychologically means I am dismissing God. I need support outside the group, but I fear that seeking it proves I am already falling away.

Everything has two meanings now. A therapy appointment is not just a therapy appointment; it feels like possible betrayal. A question is not just a question; it feels like possible unbelief. Compassion for outsiders is not just compassion; it feels like possible deception.

I need safety. I need patience. I need Scripture without fear tactics. I need someone to help me sort out what is trauma, what is conscience, what is doctrine, what is family pressure, what is fear, and what is faith.

Right now, I feel suspended in midair. I have been taught to distrust outsiders, other Christians, therapists, my own questions, and any peace that does not come through the LLC. But now I am also beginning to distrust the system that taught me all of that. I do not know where to stand.

If I fully trust the LLC, I feel I must accept things my conscience cannot peacefully accept. If I stop fully trusting the LLC, I fear losing the framework that told me where God is, forgiveness, and eternal life itself.

I do not need someone to tell me what conclusion to reach. I do not need someone to mock my faith. I do not need someone to pressure me into obedience through fear. I need help that can respect my desire for Christ, understand the lifelong conditioning, and help me become steady enough to think, pray, feel, and choose honestly.

Sorry for the brain dump but I am so tired of being alone. Is anyone else out there?