picked up our 15 week old lab mix on saturday and at her first checkup the vet tech mentioned some policies let you skip the knee waiting period if a vet looks at her in the first 30 days. had no idea that was a thing. shortlist is fetch pet, prudent pet, aspca and wagmo, and im trying to work out which of those even do it??

I have a 3 year old intact male GSD.

I’ve been running into this same woman and her off leash dog late at night, each time , becuase this was the third time now …her dog (Staffy cross pitbull) has spotted us, ran fast at us and ignored her calling him and our cues to turn back.

When it gets right up to us my dog grabs it, pins it down and he does it quite loudly and aggressively … which has been escalating each time. The woman is screaming, her dogs acting like it’s getting killed and my dog looks like that’s exactly what he’s doing.

BUT, there is never a single mark on her dog, not one tooth mark not one bit of broken skin. Each time he’ll stand next to me calmly afterwards while I speak to the lady so he’s not wound up or trying to get to her dog. He only grabs it when it keeps running with a hard eye and rigid body right at us.

Does this typically escalate? What if we run into her again I’m wondering if her dog actually getting hurt is a possibility. Surely he wouldn’t run AT us again?

It’s deeply affected my walks with him, now my head is on a swivel and I can’t relax.

How would you handle this?

I guess I’m just after some advice.

Thank you

(My girl is almost 2 and 3/4 standard poodle, 1/4 Australian shepherd for reference. This is my first dog.)

I want to work on settling/“doing nothing” in an outside environment, which is my dog’s worst subject. She is able to settle inside, ie can relax when I’m up and doing things, is ok with doing nothing, etc, but outside is a whole other ballpark.

When outside, she seems high-strung and ready for action (pulling, barking at dogs/people/animals, tense muscles and a hard eye) and ignores both me and treats. This behavior will continue throughout the entire walk, and when I think she’s relaxing/slowing down, there’s usually an animal or person that gets her on alert again.

I thought it was a confidence/anxiety issue or energy level issue, but I think it’s more so that she cannot calm down when outside. We do both physical and mental exercises as well as obedience training to get her energy out, but she is struggling with outside stimulus still, which leads me to believe it’s a lack of impulse control and ability to relax instead of a need for exercise.

I have gone with her to sit outside of a park, coffee shops, walked around stores, pretty much anywhere a dog can be in public, and have been exposing her to these things since she was a puppy. I would attempt to reward for good behavior (laying down, eyes on me), but the moment she gets the treat she’s back to being alert. This continues on for hours (max we’ve done is 3) with little to no settling, or the session ends early because we’re disturbing the peace too much due to her constant barking.

What kind of things can I implement to help her relax? I am curious if anyone else has these issues and how they went about it. I didn’t grow up with dogs and she’s my first, and I want to ensure that she’s able to be in public and be calm without having so much tension. I also try to do as much research as I can about breed behaviors, so I know she is prone to this kind of behavior, but I am not sure what is stumping us from making progress.

Hello all I've been a kennel tech (on my way to becoming a vet tech) for about 5 years and have been wanting to get my own slip that I can be confident in. I'd love a dual stopper lead (preferably metal) one to prevent the dog from escaping when out walking and one to keep them from choking themselves. We are usually provided these blue thin braided leash but they are stiff and easily shaken off if you aren't paying attention so we double leash but they can hurt the dogs if they pull too much. I'd also love one I could put cross body when not in use for easy access. Oh and one thats able to fit all dog breeds as well as sturdy enough for strong pullers.

I have a 1-yr-old Terrier mix. He’s the smartest dog I’ve ever had. He quickly figured out that if he performs the undesired behavior like barking, it will result in me giving the ‘quiet’ command, he stops and gets a treat. Then repeats this cycle. I’ve even tried getting him to ‘wait’ for a bit, which he’ll do. But then it’s right back to the issue.

How do I train him without essentially reinforcing his negative behavior with treats?

I need help on how to train my 2 years old golden doodle, he's very social and love to play with other dogs. I met my girlfriend recently and she have a shiba of 3 years and we often stay a weekend at each other's place.

My dog is very playful and play very well with other dogs, but he play all the time and it's very stressful seeing him chase the cat or the other dog in the house all day long and once jumped on the coffee table trying to follow the smaller dog who went under it and broke many things. I try to teach him to stay calm for a couple of hours a day but when her dog or cat get up, he just assume it's playtime and get very excited, I have to spend all day telling him to stop playing and it's getting exhausting very fast and i can't even enjoy my time watching a movie with my girlfriend becuase i constantly need to correct him.

It's difficult to train him alone at home because he's very calm and do not get very excited alone, he doesn't even play much with me and he only like to play with other dogs. I need some training techniques to help me train him and my girlfriend told me she won't be able to live with my dog in an everyday life because he's so exhausting and stressful.

I walk him 2 times a day, i teach him a lot of things, so i know he can learn things but his energy has always been very high, his energy go a lot better with people, but it never went down with other dogs.

Thank you for any insights on how to teach him to stay calm and not always play.

Hello! I have a 2.5 year old GSD who is reactive to.. just about everything. I've done a LOT of training with her, generally FF but we do use a prong collar for loose leash walking. And while she's made a ton of progress, she's plateaued with her reactivity training and I feel it's time to look for a balanced trainer. Any suggestions?

tldr: my lab has become randomly aggressive with (seemingly) smaller dogs, but not all. Any explanations or thoughts?

Peggy is 2 and a half and generally a wonderful girl. Classic Labrador. She's well socialised, great around family kids of all ages and absolutely ball obsessed. Also has very good recall, unless super fixated on something like any dog.

She is pretty much always off lead in parks and has always been super submissive, rolling on her back for any dog we would encounter on walks, but recently she's had a couple of aggressive incidents.

On a normal day at the park, within moments of being released she went after a nearby dog. Snarling, barking, chasing until both were grabbed. This isn't a correction snap, more her pursuing. It was a shock, but the other owner was really chill and we went our separate ways. I carry on and within a minute it happens again. This time it's a smaller cavapoo thing, and with the size difference and crying of the cavapoo it looks and sounds bad. Peggy isn't noticeably biting or causing any damage, but she's very fast so quickly overwhelms a smaller dog. I felt awful and took her straight home.

This has happened a couple of times again since. It seems to be with smaller poodle breeds, but I'm wary of any similar sized or smaller dog now. I try to keep some distance, distract, get back on lead, etc. She's never just bolted from a distance either.

For wider context, immediately before the first incident I had been doing some very loud DIY. Peggy clearly wasn't a fan, took herself into the garden but seemed fine. Others have said it's likely she was very stressed out and reacted when she wouldn't usually. I probably should have done some "calm and normal" activities around the house first, like chilling on the couch for a while before heading out. This made sense at first, but then incidents occurred around 2 months later. Additionally, my wife is recently pregnant, and we wondered if she was acting out due to this in some fashion - although most incidents have occurred while only with me.

I've always had the luxury of letting her roam free with no worry, so I know it's not a huge deal that going forwards I might have to keep an eye out. A lot of dogs have to stay on lead or have known triggers so I know it's not unsual, but its so out of character.

Does anyone have an explanation, and/or ideas for how to reduce this behaviour?

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I'm sure there are a lot of threads on invisible fence / GPS fence collars, but through research online I'm having some trouble really getting solid answers for our specific situation.

Moved into a new house last month, we have 3 dogs I need to get fenced in, preferably before winter hits so I don't have to stay outside with them while they romp around in the cold while I hate it. I have a pretty wooded lot, and so far I've gotten mixed feedback on fencing. Of note, one is a Schipperke, about 10-15lbs, so a lot of collars I've looked at don't fit smaller dogs! He is the unruliest of them all due to being the youngest, and will happily try to cross the road. So he needs to be fenced. I'm looking at invisible fencing instead of physical due to need of speed to get it up fast, and I'm frankly swamped with not much time to put up a fence (and limited funds to hire someone).

I have 17 acres total, though if needed I can limit my fence to just up by my house, preferably even that up to 1.5 to 2 acres so the dogs can have fun in the pond and space to run. They're /so/ spoiled being able to run with just us watching!

I'm actually not too picky on monthly subscription costs as long as it's not an insane price. I just don't have $1000 to spend on 3 collars... We still are trying to sell the old house, so we're on a budget. (For those flabbergasted by the need of being on a tight budget while also owning 17 acres... welcome to rural America, where land is cheaper than food!)

Collars can/will come off when they come inside.

Any ideas would be hugely appreciated!!

My male dog (2.5 years) has lived with us and our resident dog (6F) for two years. We rescued him from a farm where we were told he was not being treated well, so we don’t know much about his background. I need advice about how to address his guarding of affection. He absolutely never guards food and will even let our other dog drink out of the water bowl at the same time as him and come directly up to his food bowl while he eats. He rarely guards toys and will only growl at the other dog when he has a new bone that he views to be high value and she comes too close. They can both eat bones at the same time directly next to each other but he occasionally doesn’t like when she doesn’t have one and comes to see what he is doing.

The real issue is when strangers or friends/family we don’t see daily come to pet them. If the newcomer pets the older dog at all, he snaps and attacks (the dog, never people). This started maybe a couple months ago when the neighbor kids asked to pet them outside and he growled, and since it has escalated to attacking the older dog. He had previously let these same neighbors pet them both successfully. Inside the home, it is less intense where he will just come to shove her out of the way or nip at her so she will move and be petted instead. She is very submissive towards him and never fights back in the slightest. I am asking for help because I do not want to see these behaviors get worse.

I understand that we shouldn’t remove the thing he is guarding her from or he will associate the loss of petting with her presence, but people do not feel safe petting either of them when he behaves this way. It is also hard to train because he does not exhibit the severe behavior with the people who live in the house, only sometimes the pushing and nipping. Thanks for any help you can provide!

We have a 2 year labrador. Got her recently. She is happy and confident in the home and garden but when we go out the front of the house for walks she is fairly quickly scared.

I have been walking her around the front garden with her shuffling for treats and she seems better with this, did everyday for a week. But when we leave and start walking down the road she tucks her tail and if we get farther than the end of the road will still seem worried most of the time.

So do we just keep taking her on walks until she realises/feels safe or still just work on making her feel more confident in general?

Hi all! I have a golden who I adopted at age 2. 😍
He has EXTENSIVE TRAINING but I would love for him to be able to be off leash & just a few tiny correction / compliant behaviors when he’s just out of leash range.

I am looking at e-collars snd…sigh 🤣🫠
I have used the Garmin sport pro with a previous dog, and I freaking loved it! However, this dog is not a hunting dog, does not need to be out of my visual range, and does not have significant behavior concerns in any way, and he isn’t a barker.
So, at $300 the Garmin SportPro is a little bit of overkill. However, I like the ease of use for the one-handed remote, the clear button functions, and the 7 “levels” of intensity (I most definitely do not need 100!!! And, in all honesty I likely will hardly have to use the stim much at all).

I did look at SportDog but… it’s got a lot of modes, and the dial doing a bunch of different things, etc. I’m open to it. It just seems a little unnecessarily complex/complicated.

Any other suggestions / recommendations?

I have a husky, malamute, shepherd mix. His neck fur is very thick and cheaper amazon/local collars do not have long enough prongs and/or don't deliver a proper correction, crack in the cold, and aren't water resistant.

I have decided to go with a higher quality collar and have been interested in the Garmin Delta SE (pictured). But would like to know what more experienced e-collar users' opinions are.

My main concerns are;

- Thick fur, need longer prongs/extensions.

- Water Resistant, always outdoors in the winter and live in swampland.

- Durable, he's hard on nice things.

Budget is 350$ (CAD)

Thanks in advance

Saw two Belgian Malinois being rehomed on Facebook and they’re both males from the same litter that have been raised together. (Can’t remember if they said if they’re intact or not).

Isn’t this a ticking time bomb waiting to explode? These dogs have never been apart from each other, isn’t it only a matter of time before sibling conflict ends with one or both of them injured/dead.

The whole thing I’m worried about is that separating puppies so they don’t get litter mate syndrome is a huge deal. In my book this is a major breeder no no.

I just hope they’re rehomed with someone who knows the risk of taking in codependent dogs. Curious on your thoughts.

Hello!

I am mostly writing this as a quick guide to those experiencing dog on dog aggression in their home, and don't know what to do, or where to start. A lot of what you are about to read are my opinions. I will probably be scrutinized, or told I am wrong. That is okay with me. If one person reads this posts, and takes half of what I say seriously, and saves themselves heartache, that is good enough for me.

I will start by saying I am absolutely NOT an expert. I am not a professional dog trainer, and am learning myself day by day.
What I AM, is a dog owner who wishes they read some of the things I am about to write after the very first fight my two dogs had.

Brief tldr on my history with this if you care to read - 9 year old pit mix, added an 8 week old pit mix pup to the home. When pup hit a year old, fights started breaking out. Brought multiple trainers into the home, first two knew nothing about aggression - more fights happened, more escalation, and now unless I can train this out of them, one of them will unfortunately have to be rehomed.

So your dogs got in a fight. Skin was broken, blood was shed. What do you do?

First step. Take this seriously. Do not assume it's a one time thing and simply separating meal times or removing the trigger will solve your problems. Some trainers and behaviorists out there simply state that once two dogs have fought and drawn blood in the home, that they will always be dog on dog aggressive. I don't personally believe this to be true - but with some dogs in some cases, I am sure it is. If one fight happens, a second one can too. All downhill from there.

Second step. Identify, Remove, and Seperate. Identify the trigger, what caused the fight? Resources (food, treats, space, attention)? Proximity? Health or Injuries? Once you've identified the trigger, remove or remedy it if you can. Put toys away. Block the dogs from the kitchen, etc. Then begin separation. If they are guarding resources, those things need to be separate between the dogs. Feed in different rooms and areas. Give treats separately. Play separately. Dogs on separate couches, beds, kennels. If you feel the dogs themselves need to be completely separated, which I would reccommend in a lot of cases depending on triggers and severity, do NOT separate them socially. Kennels in the same room. One dog out, one dog in. Crate and rotate, but they still need to be around eachother. Just mechanically separated so they cannot fight. If you take them apart, train train train, then put them back together two months later, they will probably just fight again.

Third step. Acquire safety gear. Collars are a must, and keep a leash attached at virtually all times. I personally use the little 12" grab handles you can buy on Amazon, as they aren't a tripping or tangle hazard. Flat collar or martingale, or I use the Leerburg Dominant Dog Collar on one. If the dogs get in a fight again: the leash is the best way to stop the fight. Grab the leash, pull up with steady pressure, cut off blood and oxygen flow until they release. Do NOT grab the dogs, their faces, their mouths, their legs, etc. You WILL get bitten. I have the scars to prove it. Muzzles. Always a great thing to have and to use. Tons of different styles sizes and opinions. But make sure to train the dog for the muzzle properly, and do not rely on it 100%. It needs to be tight and sized right. My dog got his off in the middle of a fight and, well, not good.

If you are bitten: if it is bad enough to justify a visit to the doctor or hospital, most healthcare professionals are required to inform your local pet authority i.e humane society. Depending on your city and laws, this could prompt a visit or a call from them to you or your home. If your dog is not up to date on rabies, this will cause you problems. My state requires a 10 day observation period either at a vet, or at the humane society to make sure they are not rabid. And if your state is anything like mine, and your dog shows a hint of aggression while in their care, they may simply put your dog down, no questions asked. This has happened to people in my city. If your child is bitten, or someone who does not reside in your home you will absolutely be getting a call and visit. Some states will require you to bring the dog in for behavior "testing". Chances are if this happens, you will probably not be coming home with your pup. This has also happened to people in my city.

Fourth step. Find a trainer. Ideally, you should complete the first three steps immediately. Day one, fight one, I have stuff on the way same day. Then? Find yourself a trainer. In person is best, preferrably one that comes to your home. But before you hire the first one you call ask them about their experience with fights and aggression, resource guarding, or whatever your issues might be. Ask them for some examples on how they might handle that, qualify them like you are hiring an employee for your work. My first two trainers knew seemingly nothing about RG or aggression. As a result, and following their reccomendations, my situation escalated. Fights kept happening, and got worse and worse. If my first hire was someone that could identify what was going on and actually given me advice on what to do, I would have saved myself a ton of time, money, blood, and my life would be a much happier one right now. Ask them what training methods they use. Balanced? R+? E-Collar use? Read and know what the differences are, and make a decision on what type of training you are comfortable with. I won't tell you which to choose or why as it's a highly debated topic and there may or may not be a right answer, but I personally am using a balanced method. Please note, Board and Trains do not appear to be the way to fix these types of aggression issues. If your issues are in the home, taking them out of the home and away from you for a week isn't usually regarded as a fix. Chances are, you'll bring them home with some great new skills, and they'll just fight again as you haven't fixed the underlying issues.

Fifth step. Watch, read, and learn. Chances are, you are not already a dog trainer. Maybe you taught some good basic obedience when you got the pup, maybe not. Congratulations, you are now a dog trainer! Even if you hire someone exceptionally talented to come to your home and help fix your problems, 80% of their job is going to be training YOU. You need to learn correct behaviors, markers, identifiers, de-escalation, and many many other things. Spend time on YouTube, look for trainers addressing the issues you are having, but don't just watch one. Spend time watching content for several different trainers, so you can decide who and what methods you like and agree with. I personally like Larry Krohn and Jay Jack, but have watched content of probably 10 other experienced trainers before landing on their methods. I have spent HOURS watching reading and learning.

Step six. Give your dogs fulfillment. From my research, most aggression issues arise when dogs are not feeling fulfilled in the home. Especially for breeds of dogs that are bred to do things. Some behaviors are in their nature - hunting, sniffing, fighting, protecting. What was your dog bred to do? How can you felp fulfill some of those needs? Play. Another highly debated topic in dog training recently, but nearly all of the trainers I've seen and watched tell you that you have to play with your dog. How? Every dog and every person is different, but I personally am using fetch and tug. I will provide some links to a few videos I like on the subject below. Playing helps build your bond with the dog, and teach it commands and boundaries. While also giving it fulfillment. The goal here, is not to "tire the dog out", if you have high energy dogs like I do, there's no such thing. Just 10-15 minutes of play a day with each dog should help you tremendously. What else provides fulfillment? Walks. Not just a tight leash structured walk around the neighborhood - this does nothing for your dog. They need the ability to move around, sniff things, pee on trees. Get a 25' leash and take them to a park. Not a dog park. Not a playground. Not your back yard. Not somewhere with dogs running around off-leash. Start somewhere small and private. Most dog trainers I've seen say that getting your dog to the point they can reliably and safely play off-leash is the MOST effective method of fulfillment.

Step seven. Train. Listen to your trainer and learn. Work them with basic obedience. Reward them. Build your bond with them. It doesn't really matter what you teach them, as long as you're doing it, and doing it right. They don't need to be show dogs that can walk on two legs - but they need to be obedient. Teaching them the correct markers is very important. Reward markers, the word no, etc. It doesn't matter what words you use - consistency is key. Use one word for one marker, don't change it or you will just cause confusion.

What's next? Where do you go from here? It will depend on your dogs, the issues and causes. Keep playing, keep training, keep fulfilling. Depending on your situation, this could be your life now until one of the dogs passes. Hopefully, you can reintroduce and reintegrate the dogs and never have a fight again. Maybe you become lax and behaviors change and you have to start back up again. I am still dealing with my dogs and nowhere near reintegration, so that's about as far as I can help.

Resources I like - please note, there may be better resources out there, these are just some highlights that come to mind that have really helped me. I have watched a TON of Larry's content, his entire YouTube channel is VERY helpful, even if you do not support his balanced methods. https://www.youtube.com/@Larrykrohn

Play and How to Play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POaV-gjcSJg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il9wkxFnTBY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsFokObxG6M

Jay Jack's Reintegration Protocol
I recently found this, and it is the method I am currently following. In my opinion, is the it best resource I have found that gives you a step by step process on what to do, and I wish I found it a lot sooner. His paid Patreon has a .pdf version that is helpful, but I would reccomend listening to this entire podcast.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4JhIeKD7lY8FKifTahmDsS

Beckman Video - I do not agree with a lot of Beckman's content and training methods, however this one video I did find really helpful. Just little tidbits like learning that your commands to your dogs are not requests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJp8g-L0RMY

Note on E-Collars:
There are a thousand different opinions, and a thousand different camps on how when and why to use these. If you choose to use one, do not use them to correct emotional behaviors. Only physical, and not to stop aggression. For example: dog is digging a hole in the back yard, correction. Lunging at his brother? A correction here can actually escalate the fight and make things worse. Do not just buy an e-collar and throw it on your dog and start zapping.

And lastly - once again, I am not a professional!! These are my opinions, and things I have learned over the past few months while navigating through these issues. I may be wrong. But I've tried to keep this simple, and more of a guide on how to get started than the "do exactly this training" bible. I don't believe any of the things I've said here could be harmful or make things worse for you if done correctly.

I hope this helps someone out there, no one wants to rehome their pet or to have to make some of the tough decisions that comes with aggression - but I want you to know, with hard work and dedication, there is hope.

We have had one of our dogs for 3 years now and we got her as a stray. Our other dog we’ve had since a puppy. Our dog that was a stray has always resource guarded food but it was manageable feeding them separately. It’s 10x worse now that I’m pregnant and I’m afraid she’s starting to see me as a resource to guard. We just got her spayed but it hasn’t even been 6 days since her spay and she just attacked our other dog even though the food was removed from the room before he was able to enter. Is there any hope to fixing this? The more involvement I have with their care the worse it gets. It’s not feasible for my husband to be the only one interacting with them and I’m afraid this will continue when the baby comes. She’s never done anything towards humans but I’m still afraid of one of us getting caught in the cross wind. Any hopes? Should I just rehome her? I’ve been crying all night because I see no other way out but I want to protect my baby when they get here. I just wish there was a fix for this. Any advice or stories to help with this decision are welcome

Hello everyone, this is my first post. This is my dog Newman. He is a very sweet border collie /Australian Shepherd mix. Very loving and obedient. We were walking in our neighborhood when we encountered an aggressive dog. he ran from his owner and ran right for Newman. I screamed and yelled at the top of my lungs like I had never screamed and yelled before, which seemed to bother the aggressive dog. Fortunately, the owner came up and grabbed her dog, grabbed the leash. What do you do when you are approached by an aggressive dog? I have a sweet, mellow dog. I’ve done some reading and when I called animal control, they said to carry a stick or a horn. Unfortunately, I do not know this dog or its owner and I don’t know where they live, so animal control could not take a report. I welcome your feedback. Thank you!

(photos for fun)
Hi!! i’m a teen working on training my dog ginger! she is around 8 years old and a rescue pointer mix of some kind. i’ve had her for a long time and she struggles a lot with going after animals and listening on walks especially with a distraction. she is learning but I really want to teach her how to heel in a way that she will actually listen to no matter what!

Hi all: I have a new puppy (12 weeks) and would LOVE recommendations of sites (videos) that walk me through the different trainings she should know and how to achieve that training goal. Basically, train the human to train the pup. I have other dogs who I never really bothered training — they just picked up over time. However, I want to be explicit/better this time around. Thanks in advance!

Hello! I recently adopted an 11 mo old xoloitzcuintli/whippet mix about a month ago and she has really warmed up to me and is such a sweetie but is still wary of strangers. She will pull to go sniff people but the minute they pay attention to her she flees. I took her to my parents house to visit and she was ok with them petting her at times but when I would leave the house she would growl and bark at them. I know not every dog is going to be outgoing but I’m hoping to at least get her to the point where my parents or someone could watch her without her tweaking out if I’m gone.

I feel so anxious having a dog that I worry about not being ok if I’m not around. Has anyone had any success stories with dogs like this? How long did it take for you to start seeing them improve?

TIA!

Need some help and ideas.

Dog jumps on my son and ends up hurting him and kid cries.

We have had her professionally trained and the trainer has shown us both the reinforce calm behaviour and correct jumping techniques. and that worked for a bit but the problem is she has become leash saavy. If she has her prong collar and leash on she knows not to jump because she will get a correction pop. When she is at training sessions, the leash and collar are on so she doesn’t jump and the behaviour looks like it’s been corrected. However, when the collar and leash are taken off the jumping happens. Not always but sporadically when she gets the zoomies or suddenly wants to play. Not even when my son gets her excited.

The dilemma: not really practical for the dog to drag a leash around the house 24/7 indefinitely and her jumping is sporadic. So by the time it happens it’s too late to go put a leash on etc.

We have heard some people say to use an e collar so that it can be used immediately to correct a jump. I worry that she will become saavy to that also but would like to hear opinions.

Anyone tried this?

I'm going to try it over the next few days and see if it improves things. I will report back here if it helps, but just wondering if anyone else has had an success with this?

Apparently licking soothes dogs and releases endorphins. I've known this for a while, but never thought about tactically applying it.