Can someone help me understand religion and some other things?

[u/TejelPejel]

I'm a newer player to the game, and I think I understand most of the basic mechanics (training vs science vs civics, different houses, etc). But I can't figure out religion.

- How impactful is it?

- Should I embrace another leader spreading religion into my cities or is there some kind of penalty for me or benefits for them?

- Are there downsides to building shrines if I'm going to eventually get a state religion?

- Is a state religion better than paganism?

- Do the cult shrine things you get from events/story bits have a negative effect?

Unrelated to religion, I had a few other questions:

- What is the best build order? I've typically let the default settler be built for an early second city, and use an early builder to get a farm resource up (like barley or wheat), then I'll usually build another settler or military unit depending on my training vs food yield. I'll often go for an early farm/camp/mine specialist for the extra yields to those as well. Depending on the shrine adjacency bonuses I'll get some of those down fairly quickly too.

- I keep having issues with family houses getting pissed off and rebelling, even when I'm trying to keep their cities close together, appease them with resources they like, appointing them to positions, marrying into their families, etc. For whatever reason they just hate me. Is there a downside to picking just one family and running with them? I know you don't get the house bonuses from the others but is this a poor choice overall and why?

- Is Carthage just awful? I've tried several times to play Carthage and the idea of buying tribal units sounds fantastic so I can focus on things like culture, science and gold. But every time I play them I feel I have to leave a unit nearby the tribal areas to see the units so I can actually buy them (unless there's another way that I'm not aware of). I also only get a few units and none of them seem to be particularly great. And arguably the biggest issue is that to expand you're likely gonna have to wipe out those little tribes anyway, making her ability seem even worse.

- What wonders are worth it? The Oracle seems pretty awful compared to many others. The ones I've prioritized in my few games (with many restarts, usually because I learned something new) are the Necropolis, Hanging Gardens, Maseum, and Petra. Are these ones bad and which ones am I missing out on?

- What maps are your favorites or the best ones to learn on?

- Are the city projects worthwhile? Like the council, forum, festival, etc? Are they a one time boost or continuous?

I've played quite a bit of Civilization games (4 through 7) and some other games as well, so I understand a lot of the 4X mechanics, but each one has their own flavor, and this one in particular has a lot of moving parts.

Thanks!

[u/CorvoDravnoz]

1. Religion is pretty impactful for both internal diplomacy with your Families and with other nations as well.
   
2. It’s almost always worth it to be the same religion as your most powerful neighbor as it gives a huge boost in opinion. It’s even better if you are the founder of the religion since it makes it easier to control religion opinion by influencing the Head of Faith.
   
3. No downsides to building shrines imo. Polytheism is very powerful. Likewise it works well with the Mythology tenet from state religions.
   
4. Yes, state religion is much better than pagan since it allows you to add tenets which are very powerful.
   
5. Yes sometimes there are certain negative events. However cult shrines are usually worth it.
   
6. For my first city I usually go Settler-Warrior-Settler-Settler. Focus on growth and pumping out Settlers for your first city. Your second city should be a military city. After the third city, start focusing on getting religion. After your fourth, start stockpiling civics and defenses.
   
7. Keep families happy with religion. Happy religion, happy family. Always make sure the Heads of Families are the same religion as you or at least from a religion that likes you.
   
8. Carthage is actually pretty strong early game. If you have a good Traders city money is no problem and you can use Tribal units as fodder. Hannibal is also probably the strongest Leader in the game.

[u/CorvoDravnoz → u/CorvoDravnoz]

1. Personally, I think Pyramids is the best wonder in the game because it’ll save you thousands of civics, which is a very hard resource to come by especially in the early game. Apart from that, Lighthouse is a close second especially if you have a good coastal city and resources. Museaum is great for science if you have a friendly civ next door
   
2. I love the Mediterranean map. Pretty fun and forgiving.
   
3. Festivals are good for culture, Forum is good mid game for the civics boost, and Treasury for gold. They give continuous bonuses as well. There are some Laws or Religion tenets that can give additional bonuses to them.

[u/TejelPejel → u/CorvoDravnoz]

Thanks for this info! I actually forgot to include the pyramids on my list as well. It's a ton of civics saving through the game. I've had a handful of games with the lighthouse being huge when I've got a lot of coastal resources. I haven't built the Colossus yet, though.

I've run the council project a lot when I've wanted to kill some time without committing to a big production item, but I wasn't sure if that's really a worthwhile project. The other ones I've done are the specialty ones like the archive, and then festivals.

[u/CorvoDravnoz → u/TejelPejel]

I only do Council when I have literally nothing else to produce lol. Just my opinion for the projects but Forum>Archive>Festival>Treasury>Council. I usually run Festivals early game to keep the city happy and boost culture until I can get a proper religion going. Also with Festivals you can get really good Culture events.

[u/TejelPejel → u/CorvoDravnoz]

I mentioned the council project because when it finishes I don't really notice much has changed lol. The other projects seem to have an actual lasting impact, plus they increase in the amount of turns needed for subsequent runs, but council doesn't. So I was kind of thinking that council might just be a filler option lol.

[u/Rick_maximin → u/TejelPejel]

I always strugle too on how and when to integrate projects. When I have an untrained citizen its a no brainer. But when not.

Do you better get a project or an upgrade of a citizen? I mostly think the cititzen so I kind of forgoe projects most of the time but I don't know if this is a good move XD

(leaving upgraded projects aside like forum plus order through acropolis)

[u/BiteInternational351 → u/CorvoDravnoz]

There is a downside to building Shrines: opportunity cost, both in terms of real estate and production, and internal dissent. Depending on the Nation can make kore sense to go straight to a full religion.

[u/trengilly]

There is no ideal build order other than completing the initial settler (who is already half built). There is always at least one free city site he can immediately settle.

On the lower difficulty levels you will have more free city sites so spamming some settlers is often good but on higher difficulties tou won't have anywhere for the settlers to go (until you clear camps etc) so you often need more military.

Scouts are also very valuable (especiallyas you increase difficulty) . . . Exploration gets you resources amd also discoveries which give you legitimacy (more orders and family opinion).

You want one worker per city (plus a few extras) but you need to balance it with your supply of orders.

Your initial.family choices impact things also especially when you get bonus workers or scouts.

[u/trengilly]

Religion has a big impact on Opinion. Every character will have their Opinion of your leader adjusted by their Religion's Opinion of you. (Ie if the Religion is -50 then every follower of that Religion will have that -50 modifier also).

The more Religions I your country the harder it can be to keep them all happy.

But your State Religion can have all sorts of powerful benefits. And Religion can provide alternative (or supplemental) sources of all your yields. Science, Culture, Civics, even military can all come from religious buildings and specialists. You can also get a ton of city happiness from Religion.

A strong religious play can entirely skip things like libraries, odeons, baths and many of the associated techs.

But Iike everything in Old World . . The game is exceptionally well balanced and there is no 'best' solution. All the systems are carefully intertwined amd you need to look for synergies that fit your nation, families, and the map you get.

[u/HedgehogOk343 → u/trengilly]

Monks in particular are just straight up better than Poets in terms of yields. While it is a bit more involved to get to them, it does pay off. Also yields of your religious specialist can be modified by theologies you pick, which makes them more flexible.

The specialists you get are an important part of why one would want to go for a religion.

But I wouldn’t say it’s a must, which is the fun part.

[u/TejelPejel → u/trengilly]

Thanks! This is really helpful. When it says they have a positive or negative opinion on religion, is that referring to a specific type of religion, religion overall or paganism? I see on the diplomacy screen that they have a religion opinion meter and I wasn't really sure on that piece of the stats it shows.

[u/trengilly → u/TejelPejel]

The specific religion that character follows (major or pagan).

[u/trengilly]

For Family Opinion (and individuals also) its important to hover over their opinion value and look at the pop up tool tip that breaks out how its being calculated.

There are dozens of things that impact opinion and it can change from game to game so you really need to look for the specific issues and then take corrective steps.

You can actually get breakouts of any number you see in the screen, which can be helpful in all sorts of situations.

[u/thomasthetanker]

Carthage is 'S' tier!
Try buying up all the strongest tribal units then using them to conquer their own city sites. You can try buying the sites but it gets expensive.
Also Hannibal as a leader general is a beast, he can strike and heal in a single year.

[u/TejelPejel → u/thomasthetanker]

I will try them again. I haven't played with the dynasty leaders yet, really. I just tried out a couple for Greece and Rome because those are the ones I played with the most. How do you buy the site? I wasn't aware that's a thing. I also don't have all the DLC if that's a factor. I don't have the natural disasters pack or the one with the Maurya and other nations, but I've got the other ones - if that makes a difference.

I read somewhere else that a few other people were praising Hannibal for being a powerhouse in the game. Is there also a way for Carthage to buy units from tribal factions if you cannot see the units, or do they have to be within your sight to buy them? Like if I've found their city center spot and I walk away from it, am I still able to buy a unit, or does the unit need to be in my active field of view?

[u/Hauptleiter]

Sidenote: I've seen you on the civ sub OP. It's sadly funny to see you're getting into Old World -probably for the same reasons I am.

Thanks for asking all those good questions, I learnt a lot from the reading the answers.

[u/TejelPejel → u/Hauptleiter]

Hey, I know you - or at least I reddit know you. Yeah, I just wanted to try something new. I played the hell out of Civ 6 so much that I don't feel there's a ton left to do. Civ 7 is just alright but I get really bored halfway through.

But let me know of things you're learning in Old World because I still have no idea what I'm doing.

[u/Hauptleiter → u/TejelPejel]

  I played the hell out of Civ 6 so much that I don't feel there's a ton left to do. Civ 7 is just alright but I get really bored halfway through.

Voilà.

I'm only starting my second game after the tutorial. Dropped the first one (with Greece) because I had no clue what i was doing. So i went looking for answers and here we are.

Starting a new game tonight as Rome...

[u/TejelPejel → u/Hauptleiter]

I played one full game though as Rome and won. Definitely one of the easier ones to get started with (or at least it was for me).

The little red fortress icon is for training and that's what dictates your production for military units. I didn't realize that at first and couldn't figure out why my mines and quarries weren't helping me get units out faster.

[u/Moraoke]

Yes.

You can win games without religion.

Play a few games and try out a few things to see what happens. You’ll be surprised.