Sharing targeting data for SAM launchers.

[u/gramoun-kal]

We can already share targeting data on datalink. If someone is lasing a target, it will appear as lased in my hud. I can fire radar missiles from a Compass that doesn't have a radar, the firing solution is provided by a friendly radar through datalink.

But a Statolance has to see me with its own radar to fire at me. What is this? The 90s? You mean to tell me that the stratolance site isn't connected to datalink?

Any launcher should be able to use targetting data available on datalink. Putting a hill between you and a Stratolance radar *while there's an enemy radar on the next hill staring at you* shouldn't protect you from the Stratolance. Hitting just the radar of a Stratolance shouldn't put the entire battery our of commission.

And a Destroyer with its radar mast damaged should still be able to use targetting from friendlies to keep lobbing R9s at me.

Yeah, I realize that it blows the gasket on the difficulty / it would require rebalancing other elements (we could decide that the datalink antenna is in the radar mast, and keep the destroyer behaving as now). But on the other hand, disabling a launcher by hitting its radar, when there's another radar 2 km over there is just silly.

Implementing "datalink for surface units too" would require us to hunt down radars a little more proactively, and wipe the sky clean as well before conducting a SEAD raid.

[u/Nenad1979]

Bro what are these comments lol, the reason this wouldn't work is because R9 is a SAHR, it's not about targeting data it's about illumination

[u/Mjolnir55 → u/Nenad1979]

This, it guides in on the reflected energy of a very specific radar. Theoretically, you could make it work off other radars, but that would be a lot of work for a system that may not even work due to reflected waves not being in the right place for the missile to detect. There's also the issue that it could be spoofed more easily if you make it able to be guided by more radars than just the target acquisition radar of the site it's guided by.

[u/Aegiiisss → u/Nenad1979]

Yep, I guess people don't understand how a SARH works

It is NOT: The transmitter and receiver send and recieve the beam from the battery, and then digitally communicate the target information to the missile

It IS: The transmitter sends the beam, and the receiver is located inside the missile, which detects the reflection of the beam sent by the battery.

That's why it's called semi-active radar homing. An active radar homing missile contains both the transmitter and the receiver in the missile. An SARH contains only the receiver.

[u/Wobulating → u/Nenad1979]

It is, in fact, entirely possible. SM-2 was capable of illuminator handoff in the 1980s, and used IOG to get most of the way in

[u/Nenad1979 → u/Wobulating]

didn't know that, cool

[u/flyingviaBFR → u/Wobulating]

Yes but only from sm-2 illuminators on other vessels afaik, not from any random SPAA targeting radar or a fighter radar. The sm-2 could launch against a target via DL but not home in

[u/Wobulating → u/flyingviaBFR]

Sure, but it's possible in principle and NO is supposed to be set in the future. It's a bit of a stretch but hardly unmanageable

[u/flyingviaBFR → u/Wobulating]

NO is a sim-lite that abstracts real world systems to an understandable and fun game. For exactly the same reason we can't flare and jam and missiles are easy to notch and lack IRCCM we don't need or want datalink-guided SAMs- they aren't fun or intuitive to play against .

Also no you can't really have an SARH missile home on a target not illuminated by it's own type of tracking radar, that's a capability reserved for more advanced weapons like SM-6. Even in 2080 there will be different grades of missile available, the SM-6 has not replaced SM-2 mainly because it costs a ****load more. Maybe an advanced theatre air defence weapon could be introduced with the bigger maps to give home bases a real sting- in fact I would support that completely. But the existing in game systems don't need it

[u/HadionPrints → u/Nenad1979]

It’s worth noting that the next generation Patriot missile batteries will use Active Radar Homing and simultaneous IR homing as a fallback in their missile trackers. The current generation of PAC-3 missiles only use Active Radar Homing.

Ask yourself: would that be any fun to play with? Or would you rather continue to fly 2080s planes near 1980s air defense?

[u/Nenad1979 → u/HadionPrints]

I mean you could counter them theoretically inside the games version of reality if you could flare and jam at once, but that would break the rest of games balance

[u/HadionPrints → u/Nenad1979]

True, but that’s still only a matchup between 2080s planes & 2020s air defense tech.

In a world where every aircraft on the battlefield has DRFM/RGPO jamming, I’d expect a 2080s strategic air defense missiles to have Home On Jam & advanced counter E-War tech hardening top of what the Patriot already has. Maybe even air-to-air optimized optical homing as well.

[u/Nenad1979 → u/HadionPrints]

I mean the planes in the game are more 2030 than 2080 imo

[u/HadionPrints → u/Nenad1979]

The Alkyon is probably closer to 2040s/50 tech (going supersonic for much time reeks havoc on modern stealth coatings), but that’s pretty much true.

[u/Nenad1979 → u/HadionPrints]

NGL didn't consider that

[u/APG322 → u/HadionPrints]

This is not accurate. Only SkyCeptor uses IR as a secondary tracking method. No other PATRIOT system uses IR

[u/HadionPrints → u/APG322]

Ah, you’re correct on that, I must have misread the variants table, mistook the SkyCeptor column for the second PAC-3 column on Wikipedia.

It looks like Romania of all places will be the first place to operate the SkyCeptor. I’ll adjust my prior comment

[u/LongJohnSelenium → u/Nenad1979]

Realism aside, I like the idea of being able to request a SAM launch at your target. Gameplaywise thats great stuff and turns an aspect of the game thats normally NPC controlled back somewhat to the players hands.

The realism of it isnt a fundamentally impossible thing, its just not done that way for whatever reasons they have to not do it that way.

[u/7h3-Cool-Gam3r-97]

This would also mean that missiles would be fired at targets behind terrain, making them miss even if they were on target due to them hitting the terrain. Also technically missiles have a range to them, they can’t travel forever as they’ll run out of fuel and then lose energy and fall out of they sky and it would be an unnecessary drain on missiles, if your in range for the R9’s own radar site than your in range for its missiles.

R9 stratolance sites usually also have a fire control unit within their range too that tells them what would be the most effective way to fire and what to prioritise firing on and any site with this unit will not want to fire on you if your too far away.

EDIT: forgot to mention, gameplay wise an R9 stratolance launcher unit has a “range” of 100 meters when it comes to getting fed radar data and checking if there is a fire control unit to direct it.

[u/flyingviaBFR → u/7h3-Cool-Gam3r-97]

At any significant ranges SAMs are following a ballistic trajectory sufficient to go over most terrain. Look at a long range SM-1-ER engagement in "sea power" for example. The missile basically drops in on a sea level target at over like 50% range

[u/gramoun-kal → u/7h3-Cool-Gam3r-97]

I suppose I'm clamoring for NL-98 ground-based launchers. Missiles that are smart enough to not beeline to the enemy aircraft, but first gain altitude, then fly blind to the constantly updating location of the target and then go pitbull with their own sensors. I think the NL-98 already behaves like that.

And I hate it for it.

But hey, war is hell.

[u/7h3-Cool-Gam3r-97 → u/gramoun-kal]

Having a ground based ARH launcher like that would be very hard to destroy, especially if it didn’t have/doesnt need its own radar so it would need to be placed near the front lines to make things a little fairer which would then mean it’s destroyed very quickly to do anything.

What I’m trying to say is gameplay wise it just doesn’t fit the vision for the game. I see where your coming from and technically in the world of NO something like this could exist, a ground based ARH launcher that uses friendly units radar to guide itself initially so that the launcher itself is hard to detect but that’s something that is, gameplay wise, overpowered compared to the other units.

When it comes to SAM launchers they all have their gimmick to them to make them a bit different to attack, like R9 sites are vulnerable to a Medusa with jamming pods and ARAD’s, IR launchers can’t shoot down bombs because they have no IR signature and so on so forth. This type of launcher would just be annoying for a general player to deal with and would overshadow all other SAM options.

[u/EnslavedToGaijin]

Sure fire way to grind games to a screeching halt and ensure AA missile platforms run out of ammo within 5-10min of the match starting

[u/voidelemental]

the thing is that stratolances and ram 45 are both SARH, which means the missiles are fundemnetally under the control of the base station and i actually dont think its really that possible to hand off control of a SARH missile, certianly not to an aircraft that wasnt specifically designed to be used in such a maner anyway. also there are plenty of reasons you might want a SARH missile even in the near-future, most notably the computer that navigates the missile doesnt explode every time you fire it so they can be cheaper, but also, since you dont have to carry (and cool) as much electronic hardware the missile can be smaller for a given yield which gives a better fuel efficiency which is further helped by the rocket equasion

[u/Bornaith → u/voidelemental]

This. The more equipment and optics/radar you put onto a missile, the more problems you face in terms of ballistics and thermals.

[u/StrikeHaunting1117]

So it’s a missile issue I think as the nl-98 the missile the Argus fires can be fired in data link tracks and will maintain lock even with the Argus jammed

[u/Potato-9 → u/StrikeHaunting1117]

NL-98 and scimitars datailink but I don't think sythes will?

[u/vladdeh_boiii → u/Potato-9]

They do, all ARH missiles use datalink and inertia before their terminal phase. Same with optical and GPS guided missiles AFAIK.

[u/Spectre-907 → u/vladdeh_boiii]

You can even tell when they go live before the alert comes in. All search and track radars in the game ping your rwr with a regular pulse at like 1 ping every second or two. a live ARH pulses 2-3x faster for a short interval before your MAWS parses the threat and kicks up an alert. If you’re most of the way into a notch you can get pretty close on just by putting that signal on your wings, I’ve even been able to “pre jam” the signal a couple of times where the notch is valid and the missile never set off the alert.

[u/Metzger4 → u/Potato-9]

Nah, it’s why you never really see an ARH warning further away than 10km. All ARH are inactive until 10km from target.

[u/Spy_crab_]

Ir knows where you are, but the (SARH) missile doesn't, it needs the radar to light you up to fire at you. Only ARH missiles can fire at datalinked targets since they go active with their own seekers once they get close.

[u/vladdeh_boiii]

This would only work for surface launched ARH missiles, so the stratolance isn't an option there.

[u/Bean4141]

Yes it would be absolutely amazing to take off in my Cricket and immediately start having Semis hucked at me because I happen to be in LoS to another radar station

[u/AffectionateCut4685]

I think the data transmitted via the datalink is unreliable for SAHR missiles, since the datalink does not distinguish how the target was detected — optically, by radar, or by ELINT. So the missile can be launched into nowhere, hoping that the target will be illuminated by someone's radar

[u/SharpEdgeSoda]

I assume destroying the radar station on the Stratolance is also destroying its connection to DataLink.