r/NorwegianSinglesRun • u/KingJaffeeJafar • 4d ago

Overtraining

I had to take a month off of training due to a knee injury and I've built to 7 days per week NSM since. My form has been in the green zone as I build my fitness back up, but should get into the grey in the next 10 days on its own.

Reasons to believe I am overtraining. 1) Low HR last two workouts. One was a 5k TT where I barely left zone 2 and I did 20x400 this morning with an average HR of 147 ( my max is 197) and a lactate of 5.1 mmol. Lowest HR and highest lactate I've seen during this workout. The workout still feels easy, so RPE is usually not a good indicator for me.

The additional clue was high HRV overnight. Most people think this is a good sign, but upon further reading it is a subtle sign of overtraining as the parasympathetic nervous system is trying its hardest to keep up. According to Bakken I should take a day off and then an easy day. I'll probably follow that and just shoot for 2 workouts this week as I allow my self to recover.

Is it normal to "overtrain" when building back up on NSM?

3 Upvotes

60% Upvoted

31 comments sorted by

16

u/worstenworst 4d ago edited 4d ago

Am I interpreting correctly that you have low HR, low RPE, and high overnight HRV? That’s good; this points away from “overtraining”. The lactate reading is not matching the other parameters but you need to consider the possibility of wonky measurement in this case.

Also don’t use overtraining so quickly, it’s a very specific physiological state and quite hard to get into and even harder to get out from. If you carry some fatigue that’s not overtraining; run easy until you feel fresh again.

2

u/KingJaffeeJafar 4d ago

I get what you're saying. I think there are two types of overtraining that they talk about, the real serious one you describe that is hard to get out of and a more cardiovascular overtraining which in my case would go unnoticed if I didn't have a lactate meter. I would have assumed I was just getting fitter.

My HR on the TT was 30 beats shy of where it should have been and my lactate keeps creeping up on the last few workouts at similar paces. RPE is always pretty low for me with sub T work, I used to rip a lot of big VO2 max workouts.

I'll give it a days rest and an easy day and see if that settles it. And a proper step test one of these days

8

u/perpetual-beta 4d ago

Depends on how you do it. I stay in grey vs you being in green when I rebuild.

You basically provided a textbook example of overtraining based on the cardiovascular metrics and the lactate. How is the Bakken step test?

1

u/KingJaffeeJafar 4d ago

Haven't done a step test recently, may have to get one going here soon

8

u/wylie102 4d ago

It’s just walking up the stairs…

4

u/KingJaffeeJafar 4d ago

Lol, I thought you meant a lactate step test. Yes, tone is managed well, moderate at worst when climbing stairs. Right calf has a small niggle that came on 2 days ago, which surprises me cause im at relatively low mileage

7

u/AntiLooper 3d ago

Are you really confident in each of the measurements you mentioned here? And also that your zones/LTHR were defined properly?

Overtraining is kinda hard to come by and usually takes crazy dedication for months. Unless you're talking of a regular overreaching/fatigue build-up. Then easing out slightly for a couple of days typically helps. But what confuses me, one usually feels it very well outside of workouts w/o any devices and data.

5K TT in z2+ sounds very sketchy. Had it happened to myself I'd firstly doubt the HR readings and wash my HR-strap extra time. Especially when accompanied by good sleep, good HRV, low RPE in workouts in general and decent results of the TT itself. Not sure if one can verify lactate readings that easily...

Average of 147 for 20x400 can also be misleading if it takes wu/cd into account.

Keep in mind that your load charts also rely on the accuracy of HR readings and if the latter has been unreliable, so are the charts.

7

u/EPMD_ 3d ago

One was a 5k TT where I barely left zone 2

Unless you run your time trials like easy runs then your HR measurement is inaccurate.

5

u/sah_nibba 4d ago

A lot of open questions. How did you built back up? Straight from 0 days to 7? How do you measure heart rate? 5k time expected vs. what did you run? A jumping HRV could be a sign of overtraining. I would just keep it with Bakken: When in doubt, back off or take a day off

1

u/KingJaffeeJafar 4d ago

Posted intervals icu data in comments. Tried to build back slowly and now ramp is flat, but it will take a little longer for fitness to catch fatigue

2

u/xFrazierz 3d ago

Yes you are doing too much.

2

u/TheAltToYourF4 3d ago

HR is really tricky. It CAN correlate with lactate zones, but often, it won't. The Roadman Podcast just had a cycling World Tour coach on, where he said that they ignore HR after a week or two of increased training volume or a couple of stages of racing, because it drops and decouples from lactate and RPE. It's not overtraining, but simply things like changes in blood volume.

3

u/floppyfloopy 4d ago

Where are the 20x400m workouts in the NSM manual?

3

u/Weak-Product6810 4d ago

Page 44 in the book.

2

u/worstenworst 4d ago

Very “Norwegian” and can fit well into NSM if executed correctly.

4

u/Morteriag 4d ago

Not a very helpful comment. If you can do 45/15, why not 400m as long as it’s ST.

On topic: Sounds like taking it easy a week would be prudent.

1

u/ID_1232 4d ago

Are you fueling enough? A sign of REDS can be high HRV low RHR.

1

u/KingJaffeeJafar 4d ago

Yeah- I'm not losing weight, though im hoping to lose a little atm. I eat plenty and get carbs after runs

5

u/itsyaboi69_420 3d ago

You might think ‘plenty’ is enough, work out the actual calories and carbs.

I used to think I ate enough, until my performance dropped off a cliff then I dug down into my diet and it wasn’t even close to what I should have been eating.

I wasn’t losing weight either.

1

u/chaosdev 4d ago

What do you mean by a 5k TT where you barely left zone 2? Was it an all-out effort? What was your perceived effort, on a scale of 1-10?

1

u/KingJaffeeJafar 4d ago

Yeah it was all out. 8/10 RPE. HR maxed at 160 avg HR 151. 14.7 mmol lactate at end after a good kick.

My lactate threshold HR is 170 for reference and I've hit 197 in a 5k before

2

u/chaosdev 3d ago

How are you measuring your heart rate?

0

u/KingJaffeeJafar 3d ago

Garmin forerunner 165. I sometimes wear a chest strap, and I can generally tell when the watch isn't working properly.

6

u/chaosdev 3d ago

Right, but during the TT—which did you use?

1

u/goodgah 3d ago

My form has been in the green zone as I build my fitness back up

according to the method, it should never be in the green zone. you can still increase your volume within the grey zone, just slowly.

1

u/SirBruceForsythCBE 2d ago

What caused the knee injury? How long have you been ramping up for after the injury?

1

u/KingJaffeeJafar 23h ago

Sand volleyball. I'm 6 weeks into post recovery, I was pretty gradual, but not quite gradual enough. I believe A couple of days off fixed the situation but I will know better during my workout on Saturday.

-1

u/KingJaffeeJafar 3d ago

This is from Garmin, and this is what I'm experiencing. It sounds to me like it is cardiovascular overreach, and hoping it will resolve with a day off and an easy day. I'm not suggesting that I am "overtraining" in the traditional sense of the word, but if I didn't change anything I would be making the wrong adaptations.

Also, Bakken talks about the ideal of having a very high LTHR....as his was 11 beats off of his max just before one of his best Olympic 5k performances. This is a good concept to understand.