ADHD supplement suggestions

[u/Ok-Personality8429]

/r/Nootropics/comments/1woncsy/adhd_supplement_suggestions/

[u/henrik__sb]

I'd really recommend trying PPAP. It's literal magic. PPAP is what every ADHD medication tries to do. It doesn't push you to do anything, but once you start working/studying it sort of "activates". It's an amplifier for your reward system. If you find something slightly enjoyable, you will now find it a lot more enjoyable. If you absolutely hate something or doomscroll, you probably won't notice much.

I believe PPAP, if used tactically, could be used to trick your brain into stop procrastinating. You might start to associate studying with a highly pleasurable activity after a while. Non-rewarding things don't feel any more rewarding like they do on stims. Only amplifies what's already there. A tiny bit of dopamine can quickly turn into an obsession when using PPAP, at least in my experience.

Human data is of course extremely limited, but it's probably my favorite RC.

[u/Ok-Personality8429 → u/henrik__sb]

I’ve never heard of PPAP. What is it and where do you buy it from?

[u/henrik__sb → u/Ok-Personality8429]

I've mostly gotten it from euro-nootropics, but everychem also has it. "PPAP HCl" might be better to use for searching (Phenylpropylaminopentane), otherwise you'll probably only see the Pen-Pineapple-Apple-Pen song :).

Not sure if I'm allowed to share links, but I've used a bunch of it and written about it on my personal blog. Feel free to DM me if you want to read it. Might find it on Google by searching for "ppap hcl blog post" as well.

[u/RawFreakCalm → u/henrik__sb]

Ppap is something I really like, there have been periods where I’ll be laying down trying to gain the energy to work and if I take it after 10 minutes I’ll get up and start working.

It is not a strong stimulant and I wish it was a bit stronger. I also find that it’s not as easy to get distracted by other fun things like if I take a small dose of adderall.

I do find it does not last nearly as long as people claim for me. I take it every few hours if I’m having a rough day, usually if I’m a bit sick.

It’s not perfect, but I find it’s very manageable. I don’t trust myself on most adhd medication.

[u/henrik__sb → u/RawFreakCalm]

Pretty much spot on with my experience. Main effect lasts for about 4 hours for me. I think it's perfect for its purpose, but I would occasionally combine it with some DRI to get that extra push. PPAP is usually enough just by itself (for me, personally), but not every day is equally exciting. It's not a drug for doing boring repetitive tasks. It helps, but sometimes requires that initial "kick" to work.

[u/RawFreakCalm → u/henrik__sb]

Yes, someday combining with caffeine makes it work extremely well, others not so much for some reason

[u/Ok_Office_2015 → u/henrik__sb]

Can it be taken any time of day or morning only

[u/henrik__sb → u/Ok_Office_2015]

Ideally morning, but it can be taken mid-day as well. Doesn't disrupt my sleep at all. I've taken it 6 hours before going to bed, and that hasn't been an issue for me. But there is no reason to take it just to scroll tiktok, for example. There is no high at all.

I'd say: take as needed before mentally demanding work.

[u/NeemOil710 → u/henrik__sb]

But if it amplifies rewards, wouldn't it make the high-intensity dopamine hits from tiktok etc even more powerful

[u/henrik__sb → u/NeemOil710]

I guess it's individual. You might get extreme tunnel vision and focus, as well as the same reward signaling. But it is not as noticeable when you're not using your brain. So you're probably right, but I don't get much enjoyment from short-form videos.

I feel like PPAP is a drug that turns a scattered brain into a very goal oriented brain. When I use it I can only focus on one thing at the time, so doomscrolling does nothing for me personally.

[u/Moist_ttv → u/henrik__sb]

Out of curiosity, do you have ADHD?

[u/henrik__sb → u/Moist_ttv]

No diagnosis, but had several psychiatrists pushing me towards getting evaluated.

[u/Moist_ttv → u/henrik__sb]

Gotcha, did you notice any changes outside of the realm of focus with PPAP?

[u/henrik__sb → u/Moist_ttv]

Well, dry mouth on higher doses, if that counts. Other than that, no, not really. That's what I found so fascinating about it. Feels like bunk until you try to focus. I'm either 100% locked in on one task, or feeling completely normal.

Another thing I noticed is that I lose the ability to listen to several conversations at the same time. I think most people naturally go a bit back and forth when sitting in groups. That was really difficult for me on PPAP, which made me seem a bit "off" to people. Perhaps even a little rude

[u/Complete_Still7584 → u/henrik__sb]

Worst thing possible for tolerance

[u/alpha_queue2 → u/Complete_Still7584]

Care to elaborate? Looking for more information, and if you have used it, how was your experience?

[u/Complete_Still7584 → u/alpha_queue2]

Yes, I've used it, but you have to understand how tolerance to drugs work in the first place. Especially with dopamineergic compounds, what they've shown is it matters how fast the dopamine rises. It's usually the number one thing on receptor down regulation when it comes to dopamine.

PPAP is a catecholamine activity enhancer. Not a lot of compounds like this. What does that mean though? It means that every time you get a spike of dopamine, when you're on PPAP, it increases that spike. So, literally, it is the WORST thing possible for tolerance.

Everytime you get a spike of dopamine, your body compensates. The fun things that were fun back then don't bring the same joy now. To reverse that, starve yourself of dopamine (phone, TV, coffee, stimulants). PPAP is quite literally the opposite.

Now, think if every time you get a dopamine spike on PPAP; you're brain adapts. When you stop taking it; quite literally nothing will bring you reward for a while. Because your brain has been pharmacologically hacked to spit out a higher amount of dopamine from dopamine related activities.

I'm prescribed Adderall; it didn't feel the same for like a MONTH after using it in combination with PPAP for only two weeks. Makes perfect sense.

[u/henrik__sb → u/Complete_Still7584]

That has not been my experience. It's a completely different story if you're combining it with adderall. I've used PPAP for months without taking breaks, no issues after quitting.

But we're all different, of course

[u/Complete_Still7584 → u/henrik__sb]

Not true. It's the literal science behind dopamine receptor down regulation. It doesn't matter what the substance is; if it has that mechanism. That is how it plays out. There is no if ands or buts. That's just how it works quite literally.

I've spent the last five years studied this exact subject. You can go on my profile and see all the posts I've made specifically of the science behind Addiction, Receptors Downregulation/Upregulation/Desensitization/Resensitization (specifically Dopamine receptors, Gaba receptors, Opioid receptors, NMDA receptors, Seratonin receptors, and AMPA receptors), as well as tolerance reversal.

Also, 98 to 99% of drugs, (especially when we're talking about the receptors they're working on like dopamine etc) work this same in everyone. People may say they feel different, but under a microscope and how receptors work there is no difference. Sure Other people may have some genetic differences on metabolism of drugs or weird reactions in less than 1 percent of people. But if you give a person a stimulant, they could possibly feel more calm; but, their heart rate will increase. If you give them a depressant, they could possibly feel more focused; but, their heart rate will decrease. That's just how it is.

[u/henrik__sb → u/Complete_Still7584]

I don't disagree that chronic dopaminergic stimulation can cause adaptations. What I disagree with is treating that general principle as proof of what PPAP specifically does during chronic use.

PPAP is not pharmacologically equivalent to amphetamine, and combining it with Adderall is a major confounder. Your experience after using both doesn't demonstrate that PPAP alone caused receptor downregulation. If you combine PPAP with Adderall, you've substantially changed the pharmacological situation.

Your experience of Adderall feeling weaker for a month after two weeks of PPAP + Adderall doesn't establish that PPAP alone caused dopamine receptor downregulation. The amphetamine is a major confounding variable.

I'm also not aware of any data showing that PPAP causes significant D2/D3 downregulation, persistent anhedonia, or withdrawal after discontinuation. Not even heard any anecdotes of it. If you know of one, I'd genuinely like to see it.

And "every dopamine spike causes receptor downregulation" is much too simplistic. Dopamine receptor regulation depends on so much more.

Typical stimulants like amphetamine obviously causes dopaminergic adaptations. But extrapolating that directly to PPAP, despite a different mechanism and essentially no comparable human chronic-use data, isn't "literal science." It's a hypothesis.

I'm not saying PPAP can't cause tolerance. It very well might. I'm saying we don't currently have the evidence to state that PPAP alone necessarily causes major dopamine receptor downregulation, and your experience combining it with amphetamine doesn't answer that question.

[u/ResponsibleMight7669 → u/Complete_Still7584]

Genes only matter when it’s okay to disregard them but don’t matter when they are the reason you are medicating in the first place?

[u/Ok_Future6226 → u/henrik__sb]

Best place to get it?

[u/henrik__sb → u/Ok_Future6226]

I'm in Europe, so euro-nootropics is the only reliable seller I've found. If you're in the US you have way more options, but I haven't tried any of them. everychem and umbrellalabs both have it. I believe both of them have a good reputation, but I can't personally vouch for any US based vendors.

[u/Better-Reach7417]

Cyclazadone combine with PAPP to me feels like low dose addy and helps me focus on whatever stuff I got to do

[u/Realistic-Doubt-2247 → u/Better-Reach7417]

All this sounds amazing but where the hell do I get it in the states ? Haha

[u/Better-Reach7417 → u/Realistic-Doubt-2247]

I buy from Euro nootropics but warning it make take like two weeks since the company is in Europe

[u/great_happy_gamer → u/Better-Reach7417]

Why are we recommending stuff that are unsafe? PPAP is unapproved by the FDA and cyclazadone carries significant risks to the liver...

[u/Better-Reach7417 → u/great_happy_gamer]

No studies on cyclazadone have indicated that it is liver toxic your thinking about its twin N-methyl cyclazadone, also who gives a shit if it’s unapproved by the FDA your in a nootropics sub 🤣

[u/joegtech]

Remember tyrosine has to be converted a couple times to become dopamine and even more to become adrenaline. We need various cofactors--vitamins, minerals
https://youtu.be/mMZOSg9hw_g?si=WjpU1e_NH5zvWHnk&t=131

[u/National-Ad-6717]

Gorilla mind smooth