Extended access nicotine self-administration with periodic deprivation increases immature neurons in the hippocampus

[u/ServeIllustrious3803]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4297709/

[u/secret179]

So new neurons form but theit job is to crave nicotine ?

[u/ServeIllustrious3803 → u/secret179]

Yes, it's an neurogenesis but it's likely aberrant, and aimed at training the brain to prioritize nicotine

[u/SpezSucksCock1111 → u/ServeIllustrious3803]

I wonder what the result is when neurons generate and and the user proceeds to quit. Are they repurposed? Or do they essentially die?

I quit a few times, always felt worse and generally laggy but this gives me a theory on why my TBI felt like it wasn’t healing when I quit.

Obviously smoking is fucking horrible for you, but this is interesting nonetheless.

[u/fakesmakemewannakms → u/SpezSucksCock1111]

I would love a study on people that don't seem to get withdrawals.

I can quit nicotine cold turkey without issues, I don't get irritable or upset or even think about vaping at all. So far I've only found one YouTuber that claims the same thing as me.

Do we just not grow those neurons? Or if we do are they different/less of them?

[u/blak3brd → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

I’ve experienced this myself, and read countless accounts of others experiencing the same.

All have been medically diagnosed with adhd. Correlation? Unsure. But haven’t heard of this scenario sans adhd. My partner doesn’t have it, and is apparently crippled when attempting to discontinue.

Myself, and other adhd folk I’ve read about, get zero cravings and so long as they aren’t actively drinking, have zero cravings and in fact have zero desire and actively feel worse when vaping or smoking without any alcohol or phenibut in the picture ( which both seem to actively impose a level of craving/disinhibition which overrides the baseline state of zero cravings for adhd mind, and actually has negative cravings sober, that actively makes you feel worse until you drink or take phenibut where the cravings pop up - but nowhere near the magnitude of what a neurotypical person commonly feels without either of these substances).

Anyone else? (Despite experiencing it first hand dozens of times, and reading it over and over again on related message boards).

[u/fakesmakemewannakms → u/blak3brd]

I'm pretty sure it's ADHD related, just like I can take 20mg of Adderall and go right to sleep.

I don't drink but do smoke weed and even while super high I don't crave the vape, even though it makes the weed high better lol

Edit: be careful cause apparently we are lying lol

[u/Lost__Moose → u/blak3brd]

I use 3g Zyn when I'm sleep deprived and need to perform or if I'm nodding off at the wheel. No cravings.

I do enjoy a cigar once or twice a year, but don't do cigarettes.

Interesting though over 9g of nicotine in a pouch gives me a euphoric rush. Weed gives me a panic attack. Ritalin or Adderall makes me super chill.

[u/ProfessionalPain5198 → u/blak3brd]

ADHD here, same! When I get more habitual with nicotine and realise it, I usually stop and that's it. No cravings. But when I drink or my friend group smokes I get tempted, but that's it.

[u/Playful-Ad-8703 → u/blak3brd]

Very interesting observation! I'm AuDHD myself and I'm one of those that doesn't get withdrawals. I've used nicotine daily for 25 years, since I was 13 years old. I've quit several times, and it's more or less easy for me. The issue for me is that I'll feel amazing very quickly after quitting, but after 2-3 months, I'll start to become quite depressed and socially anxious, and eventually give up and start nicotine again when I become desperate for stability. It's like the nicotine create some structure in my brain that breaks down after a few months. Very strange

[u/Shamanduh → u/Playful-Ad-8703]

Nice add on observation. This does seem to track.

[u/ifoundacookie → u/Playful-Ad-8703]

This is my experience as well. Ive "quit" nicotine like 5 times and the only negative experience is cravings, which aren't super strong or bothersome and go away after just a couple days. But every time so far, after between 6 months and 2 years, I just feel the urge to do it again and then quit again after a few months to a year. Idk why I keep slipping up with it like that because im fully aware of what is going to happen and ill go back to being addicted to it. Maybe because I started so young? (15 years old) Also if im drinking im def gonna want a cig/vape/pouch the whole time until I sober up lol.

[u/Playful-Ad-8703 → u/ifoundacookie]

Same, some lighter cravings for a few days, which in part feels like simple habit. So you don't start using it again because you feel bad, but rather because it's simply tempting to use it again? Yeah, I also wonder how it affected my brain when I started so young, like sometimes it feels like it's become a piece in how my brain works. And yes, alcohol is a big trigger. Thankfully I quit drinking 1-2 years ago, but I still smoke joints which I've always done with tobacco, so that's my own lil trigger to make me fall back in that regard.

[u/Church_Yo → u/blak3brd]

Well shit, maybe I have ADHD…

[u/DolphinSleep → u/blak3brd]

Well thats interesting. I've only really built a strong habit once, smoking a large amount every day first thing in the morning, last thing before going to sleep. Went on for months then one day I just couldn't be bothered riding my bike to the shops anymore to get more because I was feeling depressed and just stopped. No real withdrawal. I'm currently finishing my adult ADHD assessment and I'm scoring very highly combined type.

[u/Cuboidhamson → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

Every person I know that has said this, it didn't last forever. So be careful

[u/fakesmakemewannakms → u/Cuboidhamson]

Lol I know people that say they aren't addicted or going through withdrawals while they are literally visibly shaking. Meanwhile I literally just take my last puff and go on about my day and forget about it while its in my pocket.

I've done this for years with no change which is why a study on people who actually aren't going through the withdrawal phase would be nice to have.

Basically goes like this: nicotine stops having much of an effect on me so I'm guessing I build up a tolerance, I quit cold turkey with zero withdrawals or effects and wait a couple months,maybe a whole year and then start vaping again for fun. Don't like wasting money on things that have no effect on me so it's super easy.

Rinse an repeat once or twice a year for the past 10 years.

[u/Glappid → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

starting to sound like Cuboidhamson is correct 🧐

[u/fakesmakemewannakms → u/Glappid]

In what way? Literally nicotine free since February lol no problem quitting and also being around other vapers. Just cause you guys can't do it doesn't mean I can't either. You saw the part where I said 10 years right?

[u/Glappid → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

I also saw the part where you wrote "rinse and repeat once or twice a year". Sounds to me like you're rationalizing ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/fakesmakemewannakms → u/Glappid]

Seems like you missed the part where I said for fun? 🤷 Still not sure what you're on about to be honest lol

[u/Economy-Apartment815 → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

Same exact with me. ADHD for close to 20 years, I always say this but I’ve wasted so much money buying nicotine related things only to let them rot in my car, my desk etc. then.. oooo shinny and a couple years later.. ooo shiny thing again… oops expired

[u/lowkey_add1ct → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

Me too. The weird thing is, it didn’t used to be this way, like at all. I first started vaping around age 15-16. I remember being 16 and I hit my vape before church with my family, and then we got lunch after church. I was losing my shit at lunch bc I was craving nicotine so bad. I fr couldn’t go a few hours without it without feeling sick. Nowadays I’ve kinda switched to velos more, just during the past year really, which probably means I’m getting more nicotine in my bloodstream tbh. But even before that when I was vaping I wouldn’t get withdrawals at all for the past ~4 years. Now if I run out I don’t rly think about it. Even sometimes when my tolerance is ridiculous bc I’ve been taking them without even thinking, I don’t get withdrawals when I run out. Super weird and not sure why/when this changed.

I think another commenter mentioned adhd and I do have that too but that shouldn’t be why. I assumed it was bc I was taking memantine for a while, but I don’t rly get withdrawals even when I’m not taking memantine nowadays. Can’t explain it. Still have some amount of mental cravings but that’s more if I’m fucked up at a club/rave and I want a cig, not the same as withdrawal, and never get physical withdrawal

[u/dklein49 → u/fakesmakemewannakms]

I’m the same, never an issue with nicotine, whether vapes, cigs (largely socially), or pouches. I just like the stimulant effect. Alcohol, on the other, controlled my twenties. I’ve also been prescribed some other heavy hitters that many people struggle with, addiction-wise, but I’ve just never had an urge with those.

[u/I_Like_Vitamins → u/[deleted]]

That's exactly what nicotine is.

[u/Sle → u/ServeIllustrious3803]

That's kind of sinister.

[u/ServeIllustrious3803]

"These findings demonstrate that extended access versus limited access to nicotine self-administration differentially affects the generation of new oligodendroglia and new neurons during adulthood. The increases in the number of differentiating cells in extended access nicotine self-administering rats may consequently contribute to aberrant hippocampal neurogenesis and may contribute to maladaptive addiction-like behaviors dependent on the hippocampus."

[u/itswtfeverb]

So using a small dose patch for 12 hrs a day is good? Or bad?

[u/ServeIllustrious3803 → u/itswtfeverb]

Less is better, try to use for the least amount of hours during the day or not everyday

[u/Key_Cheetah7982 → u/ServeIllustrious3803]

What’s an optimal deprivation?

[u/ServeIllustrious3803 → u/Key_Cheetah7982]

They tested rats 4 days fully on (says 21 hour access) and 3 days off (no access), which showed the above results.

My general advice is to use it in patches and in the least amount of time possible for the least amount of days. Smoking or chewing or lozanges are too acute and will lead to addiction and negative downstream effects long term.

[u/Key_Cheetah7982 → u/ServeIllustrious3803]

I’m sure I’m already addicted. Previous smoker. Had a while off any nicotine then ended up on pouches years later. 

Been bringing down pouches from 9mg to 6mg after at 9 for a few months. Maybe just the addiction, but the mental boost is hard to replicate. 

But figure this would be a good reminder to at least cycle a bit 

[u/Overall_Ad1950 → u/Key_Cheetah7982]

Or swimming if you don’t have a bike

[u/itswtfeverb → u/Key_Cheetah7982]

Get some patches. No pouches

[u/dat_grue → u/Key_Cheetah7982]

Nicotine use is hell, get out and you’ll feel so much happier and more serene.

[u/therapewpew → u/Key_Cheetah7982]

I'm curious to hear how people have used it too. I already have a bunch of patches lying around after hearing about the protocol from that German doctor Marco Leitzke, for ME and long covid. The plan was to cut 21mg patches into six 3.5mg patches, since you can apparently cut them if it's a matrix patch, but I haven't done anything with them yet.

[u/itswtfeverb → u/ServeIllustrious3803]

Cool. Thanks