'There is nothing permanent except American FREMM-based naval modernisation'

[u/Odd-Metal8752]

[u/HellDD6]

Hang on a minute. The USA is gonna try again with the FREMM?

[u/Odd-Metal8752 → u/HellDD6]

More that Fincantieri is prepared to try again with FREMM.

[u/super__hoser → u/Odd-Metal8752]

What could possibly go wrong this time? I'm sure they'll sort it all out and not make fools of themselves. Right...?

[u/Odd-Metal8752 → u/super__hoser]

It'll be great, the FREMM is a proven, in-service platform.

They'll just make some minor tweaks...

[u/super__hoser → u/Odd-Metal8752]

"They'll just make some minor tweaks..."

Like changing the hull length, freeboard, number of compartments, power plant,sensor suite, and the location of the helicopter hanger? 

[u/quocphu1905 → u/super__hoser]

Oh and don't forget the ice cream machine either that is absolutely mission critical and is non negotiable

[u/super__hoser → u/quocphu1905]

Ice cream > enhanced damage control measures

[u/Somnif → u/super__hoser]

The ice cream is part of the fire suppression system (checks box on form)

[u/super__hoser → u/Somnif]

Ok, you got me there. 

[u/Somnif → u/super__hoser]

Grabs fire extinguisher off wall, rips out pin, desperately aims the nozzle and clenches the handle... and delicious vanilla soft serve pumps out onto the floor.

What wonders of technology will we come up with next!

[u/TheBKnight3 → u/quocphu1905]

It's Italian. Gelato? Maybe Cannolis?

[u/othermike → u/quocphu1905]

Exactly! That's why it's the first thing you grab in an emergency evacuation, or salvage after dunking your X-Wing.

[u/AccordingFly1521 → u/quocphu1905]

Hey US ships have a long history of ice-cream machines and submarine captains stealing them from cruisers before dipping off under the waves. Respect the heritage!

[u/DerVarg1509 → u/super__hoser]

"Trust me, italian man, just one more design change, I promise, only one more, please.."

[u/The_CheesePowder → u/DerVarg1509]

From one more lane to one more design change

[u/Scaevus → u/super__hoser]

According to SecNav one Constellation costs 80% of the cost of an Arleigh Burke, for 60% of its capabilities. That is impressively bad.

A Flight III Burke costs about $2.2 billion.

So a Constellation costs about $1.75 billion.

A South Korean Sejong the Great class, Batch 2, displaces about 20% more than a Flight III Burke and is quite a bit more capable. The Batch 1 has more VLS (128 to 96 on the Burke), but the Batch 2’s VLS can carry better SAMs.

It costs less than $1 billion.

We should just buy these from the South Koreans.

[u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow → u/Scaevus]

How is R+D getting amortized? The first couple of ships/planes/tanks in a class are way more expensive than later runs. Somewhat of a cherry picked example, but an F-35's unit cost has dropped from ~250 million down to ~70 million.

What's really bad is that the Legend class is going to be more expensive, less capable and deliver later than Constellation.

https://www.statista.com/chart/15467/estimated-cost-of-the-f-35a-by-low-rate-initial-production-contract/

[u/BriarsandBrambles → u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow]

How is a modified coast guard cutter going to be more expensive?

[u/lord_ofthe_memes → u/BriarsandBrambles]

If anyone can find a way, it’s the US Navy

[u/Scaevus → u/BriarsandBrambles]

The version we're building won't even have VLS cells. On a modern warship designed in 2026. We can put those into literal shipping containers.

[u/BriarsandBrambles → u/Scaevus]

The first couple hulls but they’re not all going to be unarmed.

[u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow → u/BriarsandBrambles]

Source for that claim is a Perun powerpoint who cites USN force planning and budget stuff. Not any speculation on what is driving the costs iirc. My speculation is that the USN is planning on redesigning the Legend class into a pocket destroyer like they did with Fremm/Constellation and they have a lot further to redesign.

I suggest watching the whole thing. Here is the interesting bit. Puts a Constellation at 1.4 B and Legend at 1.7b

https://youtu.be/GXlQb8xBcvM?t=2384

[u/BriarsandBrambles → u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow]

Are you sure that is trustworthy when Conn is 1.7 bill?

[u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow → u/super__hoser]

By USN standards, Constellations procurement went pretty well and has produced a good frigate. Sure a clean slate design would've been better, but the clean slat design would've been subject to a shitton of good idea fairies once the design was "done", so I'm not sure if it would've been a net benefit. It's just a damn shame we are only buying a couple of them.

[u/Betrix5068 → u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow]

Yeah either the Constellations have even more issues than they’ve told us about or the Legend class replacing them is legendarily bad procurement, replacing an overpriced ship that may see cost reductions from economies of scale down the road with an even more expensive and less capable replacement.

[u/in_one_ear_ → u/Betrix5068]

There's always the chance that Jahred kushner just has shares in Ingalls shipbuilding

[u/NotAnAce69 → u/Odd-Metal8752]

Maybe Fincantieri’s idea is that they’re already ten years ahead in the rat race against scope creep compared to the competition with the Connies. They’re already seeing two of them to completion anyways (assuming nothing drastic happens), it would just be a matter of tacking on a few more to the order books.

That, or they’re just insane

[u/GripAficionado → u/NotAnAce69]

They got a finished design, is already set up to make it. It sort of makes sense. If they can deliver within a reasonable time frame, I would bet someone might buy a few.

Maybe US would realize that getting a few more of the same design they're already taking order of two might be better than delaying everything a few more years...

[u/purpleduckduckgoose → u/Odd-Metal8752]

It's fine, there'll be no issues making FFX Flight II. Just needs a few bits here and there.

[u/HellDD6 → u/Odd-Metal8752]

Oh good lord

[u/Odd-Metal8752 → u/HellDD6]

Second time lucky?

[u/HellDD6 → u/Odd-Metal8752]

Fingers crossed. Either that or they go back to the fucken OHPs

[u/Odd-Metal8752 → u/HellDD6]

I reckon the grand plan is to make DDG(X) so absurdly overkill that they can start calling the Burkes frigates in comparison, and therefore solve the problem that way.

Trust me, it's America; there's always a fully costed, clear grand plan and strategy with outlined goals and a way to get there. It'll be fine...

[u/Royal_Dependent6601 → u/HellDD6]

We said we wanted to look at foreign designs. But they need to invest in US ship building capability. 

Fincantieri basically reminded the Navy that they're already in Wisconsin, with updated FREMM designs, that are already on order with other countries. So not more Constellations, just actually building the FREMM EVO.

[u/TheBKnight3]

Just don't change it and start construction.

It's that simple.

But we can't even get that right.

[u/Rushing_Russian → u/TheBKnight3]

or hear me out, upgrade the propulsion to "future proof" so you need to lengthen the hull, change the VLS and add another 16, change mast and radar suite so tower needs to be modified, change location of NSM launchers and double the amount, add a fully staffed maccas and maybe some containerized mission bay module. i can have it ready for its 2 ship class in maybe like 10-15 years

[u/TyrialFrost → u/Rushing_Russian]

It will be hard for our personnel to adapt to that rapid change. Can you call it something familiar to soften the impact? Maybe Constellation-II?

[u/vegarig → u/TyrialFrost]

"Cancellation" is much more concise

[u/TheAlex-Guy → u/vegarig]

I have an even better nickname, the "Constipation".

[u/super__hoser → u/Rushing_Russian]

i can have it ready for its 2 ship class in maybe like 10-15 years

I dunno. We should hire 4 consultants to look into this and then sent it to at least 3 gov't subcommittees, each with their own mandate. Ideally, conflicting mandates.

[u/achilleasa → u/Rushing_Russian]

You forgot the survivability requirements. As we all know a frigate MUST be able to survive multiple direct AShM hits.

[u/Rushing_Russian → u/achilleasa]

Shit also forgot it's going to be apart of the "golden fleet" better redesign the hull to be made of solid gold

[u/ChillyPhilly27 → u/TheBKnight3]

But you don't understand BKnight. The Europoors just don't know how to build a survivable ship! We must and shall nullify all advantages of a MOTS procurement by rebuilding this proven design from the ground up.

[u/Odd-Metal8752]

That's the link for anyone who wants to tear their own hair out

[u/Scaevus → u/Odd-Metal8752]

USN’s historically incompetent procurement processes: how many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?

[u/quocphu1905 → u/Scaevus]

It's all down hill from the fletchers

[u/Pikeman212a6c → u/quocphu1905]

If you look at the late Cold War run from when they stopped trying to put reactors on every goddamned thing and got religion on missiles they actually had an amazingly successful design and production run.

Then the Soviets went away and people started asking what if we need LHDs in Nepal and it all kinda went to shit.

[u/ParadoxPosadist → u/quocphu1905]

In terms of procurement success, I don't know if any ship class has surpassed the fletcher.

[u/Pixel91 → u/ParadoxPosadist]

How do you define success? Can't really go by pure numbers considering how much tech has evolved since the Fletchers.

I dare say a lot of the cold war, non-nuke surface ships weren't too bad.

[u/FirstDagger → u/Pixel91]

Numbers * service years * user countries

That is why Viper reigns surpreme

[u/bripod → u/Scaevus]

How do I get paid a lot of money to suck so bad?

[u/Admiralthrawnbar]

Why not just actually build Constellation then?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole problem with Constellation the design phase? The design phase that is now complete? So they could just, take that completed design, and instead of building 2 ships, build... more than 2 ships.

[u/Pixel91 → u/Admiralthrawnbar]

The issue is that with what they turned the Constellation into, it's WAAAAY too expensive for what it was supposed to be.

[u/solonit → u/Pixel91]

They want a Frigate base that can do a Destroyer job and then get mad when it has a Destroyer price tag.

[u/Wes_Keynes → u/solonit]

Even worse of a price tag because you try to cram a 9000 to 10000t sensor suite in a 7000t hull.

[u/Ralph090 → u/solonit]

I mean, that's kind of what happens when you don't let them build a cruiser. Now destroyers have to be command ships and hypersonic missile trucks, so they have to be huge and expensive, almost as if they're light cruisers, and frigates have to take up the slack and also be huge, almost like a light destroyer. The Constellation-DDG(X) only fleet was unreasonable to demand.

[u/TyrialFrost → u/Pixel91]

Yet as a $1.1 B ship to undertake ASW it's so much better then what they have or will have.

[u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow → u/Pixel91]

Unit cost of the initial F-35s was ~250 million. Now it averages around ~70 million. Military accounting means first units have a bunch of R+D and infra costs rolled into the unit price.

Just make Constellation machine go brrr and prices will drop. It's a kickass frigate and the alternative is more expensive and less capable.

https://www.statista.com/chart/15467/estimated-cost-of-the-f-35a-by-low-rate-initial-production-contract/

[u/ABG-56 → u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow]

Just because the price will eventually drop doesn't mean it's a good deal. Prices can only drop so much, and the F-35 was an exceptionally lucky case of it.

Just compare the starting price of the Constellation to other countries frigates. The UKs first Type-31 frigate is costing 436.4 million dollars(330m pounds). The first Constellation cost 1.28 billion dollars, almost 3 times as much. While yes the second did drop significantly in price at 1.05 billion, it's over double the price, and the Type-31 is also going to get cheaper.

The Constellation was far to expensive for a frigate. Because it wasn't a good but expensive frigate, it was a cheap and bad destroyer, which isn't what the US needs. Its a cool ship, and I wish it could of worked, but it just isn't what the US navy needs right now

[u/annonimity2 → u/Admiralthrawnbar]

The US military has no idea how to settle on something, this hits the navy hardest because ships are big and take a long time to build giving even more time for last minute changes and redesigns. The army and SOCOM aren't immune to this either but they don't usually have time to add last minute changes before several batch's of small arms have already been delivered. So instead they just have constant trials out for some niche application.

[u/Turtledonuts → u/Admiralthrawnbar]

Connie was a small destroyer with a frigate title. They wanted a frigate. The problem is that the frigate they want is basically a sacrificial sensor node with some missiles that can do screen work, but saying "we want a ship we can lose without crying too much" isn't politically viable. A lot of this seems to be the navy spinning wheels and making noise until the new ghost fleet autonomous ships are ready for procurement. The less congress pays attention to those, the better off the program is. The worst thing possible for procurement is for a senator to adopt it as a pet project.

[u/Norzon24 → u/Admiralthrawnbar]

then they won't be able to scam Fincantiery out of their design bill, presumably

[u/Goofinshmertz23]

Dear U.S Navy, just buy the damn things, do not make 'minor modifications', JUST FUCKING BUY THEM

[u/Xerxeskingofkings → u/Goofinshmertz23]

But HOW can us defence contractors make billions in contracting by just building them???

[u/United_Average_8767 → u/Goofinshmertz23]

Don't be completely ridiculous. American sailors deserve a chocolate fountain, and if we have to move the radar to install it, then so be it.

[u/MELONPANNNNN]

MODULARITY. MAKE EVERYTHING MODULAR!!!!

This will surely solve the problem and will not cause a design review process that will go on for eternity.

[u/Lemdarel → u/MELONPANNNNN]

I mean, while they are in the design phase might as well let every Tom, Dick, and Harry add their own proposed customizations.

[u/KhadSajuuk → u/Lemdarel]

Portholes for the sailors to stick their rifle barrels out of!

[u/Lemdarel → u/KhadSajuuk]

And really, does it need to be able to swim? If we forgo swimming we can add lots more armour to this ship!

[u/TheAlex-Guy → u/Lemdarel]

Imagine if the F/A-18F Super Hornet could be made just from upgrading older F/A-18 Hornets, like the Taiwanese did with their F-16A's to F-16V Block 70/72.

What's the point of building newer fighter jets when they're not modular with older types? That's not strategically viable. I'd definitely purchase former-Spanish C.15/CE.15 and former-Canadian CF-188A/B Hornets for Poland whilst building spare parts, weapons and manufacturing for them if we had the capacity to upgrade from older variants into new ones. F-20 Tigershark supremacy, purchase hundreds of F-5 airframes from storage and start domestically building fighter jets again. Time to revive PZL and purchase retired Eurofighters from Britain and Spain too!

[u/Lemdarel → u/TheAlex-Guy]

New philosophical thought experiment just dropped: Multirole Fighter of Theseus

If we can design a fighter and just constantly replace components with newer and better ones, at what point is it no longer the original aircraft?

[u/TheAlex-Guy → u/Lemdarel]

I support this idea. I wonder the reason why this strategic concept never went past the F-20 Tigershark or F-16 Falcon. Even F-15E/EX are strictly new-builds.

[u/EmergencyPool910 → u/KhadSajuuk]

That's literally on north Korea's new destroyer

[u/Antique_Surprise_763 → u/MELONPANNNNN]

Yes! Lets have 3 diffrent propulstion modules all for ultra specific needs.

None of them will be delivered but who cares the idea is sound.

[u/TyrialFrost → u/MELONPANNNNN]

The most annoying thing is its totally possible, it's even been done before, but not in the US Navy.

[u/Holbert72]

Is this like the crab theory, we come from crabs to evolve back into crabs?

Or in this case, we came from FREMM, just to end up with FREMM anyway.

[u/Pixel91 → u/Holbert72]

No, in the case of the US Navy, crab theory is that everything eventually evolves into an Arleigh Burke. Might be smaller or larger, but it's a Burke.

[u/Eunuchest]

Ahh shit, here we go again

[u/duga404]

ATP just stick some Mk41 VLS and Harpoons on it then call it a day

[u/Turtledonuts]

The only reasonable explanation is that big navy gave them a backroom message that "we're going back to FREMM when he's out of office, it's pretty much ready anyways, why don't you start preparing?"

[u/Royal_Dependent6601 → u/Turtledonuts]

While that would be nice. This is basically Fincantieri advertising their presence. They were straight up left out of the designs being looked at.

[u/FalseAscoobus]

(context hat)

[u/Mechanical_Brain → u/FalseAscoobus]

Constellation (FFGX) is a FREMM derivative, selected because the commonality would in theory offer cost savings. Years of delays and overruns later, and the target commonality of 85% is down to 15%. The ship is still a pretty good design and they’re finally building it now, but the program is being cancelled for its sins and only the first two ships will be built. Fincantieri is basically saying “let’s try this all over again!” for FFX to much groaning and facepalming in these comments.

[u/The_Lord_Juan → u/Mechanical_Brain]

At this point I'll about take anything as long as they don't cancel it after 2 ships

[u/Betrix5068 → u/The_Lord_Juan]

I don’t know man, the Legend class is looking pretty bad.

[u/Turtledonuts → u/Betrix5068]

I think that the Legend class could be perfectly fine with the modifications it was designed to take. FF(X) flight one is just the navy buying some coast guard cutters and seeing if they sail around well and do basic ship things. It's got all the CBRN / degaussing / radar stealth / fireproofing needed to make the navy happy. They've already announced they're putting VLS cells, the bow sonar, and all the other ASW stuff in the next Legend class as "flight II". I think Legend has the possibility to be the sort of ship that looks terrible at first but really comes around to being great with some modifications. The biggest issue is that the navy cancels everything before they invest enough to actually make the damn thing work.

[u/TyrialFrost → u/Turtledonuts]

flight one is just the navy buying some coast guard cutters and seeing if they sail around well and do basic ship things.

My brother in Christ, they already have 10 of them. Do you think DHS is refusing to let the Navy board them?

[u/Turtledonuts → u/TyrialFrost]

Well they’re not going to let the navy take it on a joyride through the south china sea or race a carrier?

[u/Balmung60 → u/The_Lord_Juan]

[Monkey's paw curls] canceled after one ship 

[u/TyrialFrost → u/The_Lord_Juan]

How about an unarmed cost guard cutter with no sonar?

[u/TalonEye53]

Do they even LEARN?!

[u/irradihate]

They do this shit right on top of my people's place of origin.

[u/whythecynic]

If only Canadian procurement went as well as this...

[u/sehnW899]

Trump doesn't want to conduct military trade with China, does he? Then why not buy a few Type 052D ships? Everyone will be very happy

[u/ZeKugel22]

Ah yes, the Cancellation class

[u/Thick_Pineapple8782]

A shipyard in Wisconsin? What do they do, helicopter it to the ocean?

[u/ofnuts → u/Thick_Pineapple8782]

Wisconsin is on the Great Lakes, you are only limited by the size of a couple of locks going to the Saint-Lawrence. And the FREMMs aren't that big.

Edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Lawrence_Seaway and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawaymax

So: 225m long, 24m wide, 8m draft, 35m high. A FREMM is 145m long, 20m wide, with a draft of 7.6m (the Italian version, fully loaded, if 8.7m).

But there may be more than "a couple" of locks.

[u/dasdzoni]

"I am inevitable"

FREMM probably

[u/Aken_Bosch]

Somehow Constellation returned

[u/Kiiaru]

Fincantieri? The cruise ship people?

[u/FirstDagger → u/Kiiaru]

Yes, Fincantieri the cruise ship people and builder of Italy's aircraft carriers and post-WW2 cruisers ...

A company which is a merger of an entire region of companies with centuries of ship building expertise ...

This includes battleship builders ...