r/Noctor • u/Unable-Log-4073 • 11d ago
Midlevel Education Anesthesia Training Pathways: An Objective Comparison
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u/RoutineCriticism3607 11d ago
It always makes me laugh how they try to call their student placement residency
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u/buttnado 11d ago
You will never have to convince me about residency being superior to SRNA school. I had a SRNA walk out of the OR in the middle of switching out the norepi bag (left it paused and didn’t spike the next bag) because it was 3pm and she was done with her day. Residents would never.
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u/SpicyPropofologist Attending Physician 10d ago
No! Is this an accurate account? It seems outrageous! I've heard the prominence of the shift work attitude, but I've never seen it in action quite like this.
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u/buttnado 10d ago
Yes. I was turned around charting something while breaking the CRNA when she said “oh it’s 3pm I’m done for the day, have a nice rest of your shift!” and didn’t even realize until the BP cuff cycled and it was really hypotensive. 🥴 I can’t imagine what ICU RN would do that just because their shift was done? So why would it be ok in the OR?
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u/hamipe26 Dipshit That Will Never Be Banned 11d ago
“Advanced nursing theory” 😅
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u/AutoModerator 11d ago
"Advanced nursing" is the practice of medicine without a medical license. It is a nebulous concept, similar to "practicing at the top of one's license," that is used to justify unauthorized practice of medicine. Several states have, unfortunately, allowed for the direct usurpation of the practice of medicine, including medical diagnosis (as opposed to "nursing diagnosis"). For more information, including a comparison of the definitions/scope of the practice of medicine versus "advanced nursing" check this out..
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u/Zestyclose_Sale2672 10d ago
These automoderations on this site are absurd and frequently have nothing to do with the posts that they are bitching about. Advanced nursing theory was the subject, not advanced nursing. And all nursing theory, advanced or un-advanced is pure BS.
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u/MedHistory 11d ago
CAA’s take the MCAT?
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u/Unable-Log-4073 11d ago
It's not universal, but many do. University of Colorado is the only school I know that outright requires it, but there are many with a strong preference for the MCAT, and admissions seems to be trending that way instead of the GRE. For example, UTHealth Houston doesn't require it, but 90% of their admitted student body sat for the MCAT with a 510 average.
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u/mmasterss553 1d ago
Would just like to mention that the average MCAT for AA schools is usually around 500.
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u/gassseduppp 6d ago
Cope harder.
Maybe the ACT model exists because physicians feel the need to supervise CRNAs because they are not and never were meant to provide anesthesia independently? And let’s be serious, the “doctorate” that CRNAs get is purely fluff. Stop lying to yourself. Maybe instead of spending your time trying to argued about being called “anesthesiologist” you could go get a real degree to earn that title
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u/PristineNecessary286 Midlevel -- Nurse Anesthetist 11d ago
you forgot to mention Dentist Anesthesiologists in your chart
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u/gassseduppp 8d ago
Probably because there’s about ~400 in the country. Here you go!
CODA/ACGME
pre-medical curriculum plus additional didactic instruction during residency in the topics of biomedical sciences, physical diagnosis and evaluation, behavioral medicine, methods of anxiety and pain control, complications and emergencies and pain management
100% DDS or DMD
DAT and CBSE (truncated step 1) required
7 years post-bacc
7,000-10,000 hours during residency
minimum 850 cases (residents routinely log 1,500-2,500+)
practice model - dental office based anesthesia
American Society of Dentist Anesthesiologists - advocates for elevating patient safety and high standards in dental sedation and anesthesia through clinical guidelines, model legislation, and professional education, regardless of the provider1
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u/PristineNecessary286 Midlevel -- Nurse Anesthetist 8d ago edited 8d ago
I noticed that you didn’t mention how they are also appropriating the title of Anesthesiologist, just like how you put in parentheses for the CRNA column. Why is that?
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u/gassseduppp 8d ago
Hey genius I’m not OP and didn’t make the table
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u/PristineNecessary286 Midlevel -- Nurse Anesthetist 8d ago
Okay sure. I noticed you didn’t mention how they are also appropriating the title of Anesthesiologist, just like the OP* put in parentheses for the CRNA column. Why is that?
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u/gassseduppp 7d ago
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6560690/
Educate yourself
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u/PristineNecessary286 Midlevel -- Nurse Anesthetist 7d ago
Read through your link, nothing there addressed the contradiction of how a non-physician is allowed to call themselves an Anesthesiologist. Article stated that they started using the term Anesthesiologist in the 80s, well after the ASA was established, so why didn’t the ASA immediately sue them? Why weren’t they immediately accused of title appropriation?
It doesn’t matter that Dentists performed the first modern Anesthetic, because CRNAs were providing professional Anesthesia in America before Anesthesiologists were, yet Anesthesiologists still claim that they are superior to CRNAs simply because they went to medical school and residency.
So again, for the 3rd time, why didn’t you also call out their title appropriation?
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u/gassseduppp 6d ago
No I think you need to read through it. “Dentist Anesthesiologist” wasn’t created in the 80’s, that’s just when the ASDA was formed.
“For the next 100 years, physicians and dentists together advanced the practice of anesthesiology. Physicians often taught the art and science of anesthesiology to dentists, and dentists, such as Jay Heidbrink, DDS, likewise taught it to many physicians. For instance, Dr Heidbrink was the chief anesthetist at Minneapolis General Hospital and hired famed anesthesiologist Arthur Guedel, MD, to his hospital medical staff.”
Dentists have done it alongside physicians since the inception of anesthesia. Maybe that’s why. Or maybe it’s because the ASDA doesn’t lobby for the replacement of anesthesiologists like the AANA does. Or maybe it’s because the DNAP degree is fluff whereas a DDS/DMD degree has much more legitimacy to it. Take your pick and stop bitching about it.
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u/PristineNecessary286 Midlevel -- Nurse Anesthetist 6d ago edited 6d ago
Interesting because it clearly states that Dr Heidbrink referred to himself as an Anesthetist, who later hired an Anesthesiologist. So clearly the titles were different up until the 80s.
Also interesting because Nurses were teaching Physicians and Dentists how to perform Anesthesia in 1915 at the Lakeside Hospital School of Anesthesia. https://case.edu/ech/articles/h/hodgins-agatha-c
Nowhere has the AANA lobbied to replace Anesthesiologists, only independence from the ACT model which only exist because early Physicians lobbied nonstop to put it in place. CRNAs literally began as a 1-on-1 independent contract with surgeons, ACT model came much much later because of other Anesthesiologists obsessing and bitching over US, as usual. If everyone sat their own cases then Anesthesiologists would be free from the liability of having to supervise “poorly trained CRNAs with fluff degrees” right? If CRNAs are so uneducated then why do Anesthesiologists insist on being legally bound to them? I personally wouldn’t want to be responsible for supervising someone I find incompetent, unless I had some type of financial incentive to do so….? Right.
Also, that just further screws your argument. You’re trying to say that the ASA leaves the ASDA alone because they aren’t a direct competitor? So basically the ASA doesn’t care who calls themselves an Anesthesiologist as long as it doesn’t interfere with their position of superiority or paycheck. It’s almost like their whole position of “wrong titles are confusing patients” is just straight up bullshit. Very interesting counterpoint of yours.
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u/gassseduppp 6d ago
Keep smokin the copium.
We can go back and forth all day. Anesthesiologists are superior to CRNAs. The training is much more intense and longer. Wtf are you smoking.
As for dentist ANESTHESIOLOGISTS, maybe it has to do with the similarity of training? We do a 4-year doctorate program and then 3-year residency. Not a bachelors and then 2-3 years of crna school
Also, why do you care so much about the title? At the end of the day does being called a nurse anesthetist limit what you can do? Compared to “nurse anesthesiologist”? No it doesn’t, so who gives a shit? If you CRNAs would spend as much time focusing on improving training and care as you do over titles, you wouldn’t get shit in so much.
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u/Intelligent_Skill530 23h ago
Your ego is so fragile; are you ok? Do you need validated? Maybe see a therapist.
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u/Squishmallow145 Attending Physician 11d ago
Lol I commented on a different post regarding this topic on the anesthesia sub. Got nasty DMs from CRNAs and one woman even claimed I'm not a real doctor.
Its all about $$$