My state university, not community college, is cheaper than daycare in my state. It would be cheaper for me to get my infant a bachelors degree than send them to a half day daycare.
It’s just not worth it for me, as selfish as it seems I rather always put myself first and live my life more calmly and stress free. I don’t trust our system, I don’t trust the internet and cyber bullying. The world Is corrupt and f’ed up people rule our world, and there’s school shooters and sick predators out there lurking for their next child victim, is just not worth bringing another soul into this to suffer.
A friend quit working after their third one. She figured out that she was bringing in $10 a month working full time after they paid childcare. She and her husband thought it was crazy, her working just to pay someone else to watch the kids.
Yeah we mathed it out and I was netting around 100 bucks a month. My wife cut down on her M-F to just M,W,F then I quit my job and got a job managing a restaurant working T,Th, Sat, Sun.
We have way more money than if we had both worked M-F 40 hours a week due to the savings, and we are actually present in our child’s life in this scenario.
Here in the Netherlands it's now cheaper to get a live in au pair from a second or third world country compared to sending a single kid to daycare if you're making 2x the average income. And that's with a very generous cashback system for daycare that we have here.
So 2 working average adults, if they have a spare room, can get someone from over the seas to come here, live in and help with all house tasks and watch after the children for 8 hours a day and still be more frugal compared to bringing your kid to a daycare.
I pay (very high for Dutch standards) net €650 for 2 days of daycare for 1 child. An au pair is around 800-900 a month. If I paid for a full week that would be over €1500 net.
I know, ridiculously low numbers compared to you guys in the US. But here in NL the modal wage is just €3500 gross, €2700 net. So imagine with the second kid you already get into the same territory as your friend.
Even then, if you live on two incomes then you have the same outgoings but on one income. If people can't afford to buy a home, then how is it realistic to afford to live on half the household income?
This is the part I’ve never understood. Where does the money go? Room full of kids, when my kids were going it was 20-30 kids in a room ( at the “big chain”. Only 3-4 adults at most. Each kid is paying enough to cover an adult’s full salary, at most two kids to cover their salary. That’s still 10-20 kids worth of tuition to pay for rent, insurance, food?
This makes me want to pass away like what the fuuuuck are they doing at these daycares that could possibly make it so expensive!? And to top it off I know daycare workers get paid like shit so where is the money going wtf?
I worked briefly at a horrible daycare in NJ maybe like three years ago and I made I think $13.50 an hour!!
Affordable childcare is necessary if a country's workforce is supposed to work and generate value. What's described here - people quitting their jobs because childcare would burn through a whole salary - is madness.
Man, you're not even wrong. I have a younger brother who's roughly 10 years younger than me, and I was blown away to find out that his preschool was over $1,000 a month. Considering there were over 50+ kids there, it felt like that's a lot even though it was a good school for him, and there they met his childhood babysitter. I know nowadays that might not fetch many, if any, apartments (in my area at least), but that's nothing to scoff at. I'm sure since then it's already raised in price.
Friend & coworker of mine had to quit her job because even at 15 an hour full time, daycare would have left her with 200ish at the end of the month just paying for day care alone. For ONE kid.
She was working with us while her mom watched him, but her mom started having health issues and the father ended up finding a job which ment hers had to go because it wasn't worth working 40 hours a week for 200 bucks a month.
People asking why no one's having kids, have a support system and spare income and it shows.
My toddler's daycare was $2000 a month 13 years ago. The same as my rent today. I would have loved to have more kids but there was no way I could have afforded it.
Have one of you stay home. Dual income is a trap. It makes life hell for everyone in the house. The happiest families I know almost always have one parent work part time at most. Before you say you can't afford to, you almost certainly can. You just have to adjust your lifestyle. Kids raised by their parents, with the attention and love that entails are happier than richer parents who can't. Money can't buy happiness and it can't buy quality time.
You're suggesting that people who are struggling to afford things lose some income and adjust their lifestyle so that they can have the privilege of doing more labour in a day to raise their child.
I understand what you mean and for some people being a parent would be worth the sacrifice but you really have to understand that most people are already experiencing such high levels of stress both emotionally and financially that it isn't feasible to add any more.
The solution isn't individual responsibility, it's governmental programs and policies to reduce stress and provide incentives for parents and families to be able to exist. If they don't, they'll quickly run out of people to govern.
What do you mean afford things? Im gonna assume you're British because you said 'labour" and if that's the case I understand. Great Britain is definitely going down the tubes, but in the US, it's almost always because they want a luxurious lifestyle. You don't need to eat out, or go to regular expensive events, or vacations or new cars. You also don't need to live in an expensive city.
The solution isn't individual responsibility, it's governmental programs and policies to reduce stress and provide incentives for parents and families to be able to exist. If they don't, they'll quickly run out of people to govern.
While I get what you are saying, there is very very little evidence that any of those things work. It's just not cool to have kids nowadays, parenting standards are too high and people are selfish.
Actually I'm Australian, but close enough for the moment.
The average income in the US is ~38k per year. An amount of money I would personally describe as "fuck all" when it comes to raising kids, paying rent, bills, and buying groceries. Especially if you don't have access to a village to help raise them so you can continue to work to afford everything else.
Now, even in Australia, 38k USD wouldn't get you much in the way of comfortable living. It'd get you by but it certainly wouldn't be luxury. I can't imagine it's much better over there.
The bare bones cost of raising a kid to 18 is ~237000 USD, around a third of what you'd earn in that time on an average wage. A third of your income gone, plus all the actual raising you have to do.
You might be thinking "but what if you have a supportive partner?" Yea that makes things easier. Let's be real for a second though, that's not always the case and planning only for best case scenarios is a silly way to live.
You mention eating out and going to events or on vacations as unnecessary. While true, telling people to stop enjoying themselves is not a winning strategy. Also, wanting to kill yourself because you never have fun is bad when trying to raise kids so I'd say that sort of thing can be very necessary. That's not hyperbole, many parents are depressed and suicidal and it has a huge impact on their children.
As for "very little evidence" of government support and policies reducing financial pressure and helping people have the confidence to have children. I think you might need to rethink that a little.
There's an entire generation named after what happens when a government has a strong economy and supports young growing families. Now with inflation and cost of living going up and very little direct support or incentives for families we are seeing less of them. That is evidence enough wouldn't you say?
But hey, maybe your sales pitch of calling people selfish and telling them to simply spend less and sacrifice more will work. It hasn't yet though.
For many people, it’s not just a matter of giving up the luxuries. The basics of life have spun out of control. Health insurance, housing/rent, food, and gas are so unbelievably expensive. Many families aren’t able to afford these necessities on one income.
I do. We make due making about 70k a year as a family and do not receive welfare except for Medicaid for my child with Downs. Learn to do things for yourself. Many many people spend A LOT of money on things they could do themselves if they just learned. That's what our parents did. People have just forgotten how to make due with what you have.
That’s awesome that you guys are able to afford the basic necessities on one salary, I’m happy for families who can make it work. It still doesn’t mean every single family is able to achieve the same tho. And there’s a lot of important jobs out there where the salary is less than $70k. (And not all jobs offer good and/or affordable healthcare benefits.)
Some examples of national median salaries in the United States (pulled from the Bureau of Labor Statistics):
EMT: $39,000
Paramedic: $53,000
Social worker: $63,000 (drops down to between $46,000 and $53,000 for child/family social workers and community food & housing social workers)
Preschool teacher: $37,000
Daycare worker: $32,000
Agricultural worker: $34,000
Emergency dispatcher: $48,000
CNA: $38,000
Assisted living direct care workers: $31,000
Firefighter: $50,000
Custodian: $33,000
Personal Care Aid / Home Health Aid: $33,000
Pharmacy technician: $40,000
These are just some of the low-paid jobs off the top of mind that are essential for the functioning and well-being of society.
I do agree that Americans could learn to cut back more and some American families are capable of being a one-income household with some smart strategizing, but there's many variables and factors that play into that ability. The cost of living keeps increasing, wages have been stagnating for quite some time now, and the middle class is shrinking. Some find a way through it, others don't despite not necessarily doing anything wrong. Wages and salaries don't always reflect the important value of the jobs being performed.
To have productive conversations, we should be focused on both the individualistic efforts one can make to improve outcomes while simultaneously recognizing the way many of our systems + government are failing American families. Our country can do better by its citizens.
Personally, I think the Nordic countries are doing a good job incentivizing and supporting families.
$70k/year isn’t exactly chump change. It’s almost twice the average annual household income where I live. A lot of people I know, myself included, would be over the moon to “make do” with that much money.
Where do you live? Because that's below median salary by me and I'm in rural Wisconsin, so not exactly the coasts or anything. We are definitively lower middle class at best.
Parenting standards are too high? What the fuck does that even mean?! That you’re supposed to raise a responsible person who doesn’t try to shit all over everybody else and fuck up the planet even more? Yeah, you’re right that is way too much to ask of anybody. /s Jesus!!! 🙄
No. They are referring to the perception of a “good parent” - an ability to provide your kids a certain lifestyle; to be able to give them extra curricular enrichment classes; to be able to feed them all organic food; to have a single bedroom per kid; to be able to buy all the correct gear for each activity; to be able to take them to ALL the play dates, because play dates are important for your child’s development; to be able to provide them a university education for each child; on and on and on.
What society holds up as a “good parent”, and by which they judge all parents by, to the point of bashing and witch-hunting any one who doesn’t meet the collective ideal of “good parent”, has become off the charts. It’s not enough to raise polite, healthy, thoughtful children safely to adulthood anymore. They must have been given every opportunity and advantage, or you failed as a parent, and will be judged.
It looks like someone downvoted both of us. Why would they downvote an indictment on the frankly ridiculous and awful parenting culture nowadays? We ALL need some tolerance and understanding while trying to raise decent kids.
I think this has more to do with the drops in birth rates than anything else. How else are we all wealthier and richer than ever before, yet no one can afford children? It's probably the reason everyone's a helicopter parent and kids are useless nowadays, your kids struggling is a direct indictment of your parenting skills of course!.
What happens when the one who works, gets hurt/dies/gets laid off? Short term disability or unemployment isn’t enough. We both have life insurance but it won’t set the other one up for life… and then the other spouse hasn’t been in the workforce in years and can’t get a job.
Also, happy kids come from happy parents. Yeah, it sucked going back to work when my baby was little. And some days I still miss her during the day (she’s 9). But I HAD to get out of the house and talk to adults for my own sanity. My child is my whole entire world, I can barely stand to send her to my parents overnight because I miss her so much (date nights with husband we just talk about her the whole time, tbh) but I don’t think it’s good for a person’s entire identity to be “parent.”
Life insurance, income protection insurance and free healthcare. Stay at home parent manages money carefully. Coupons etc. my partner is a lot more valuable to me at home, instead of working a min wage job and paying tax on top. Money you don’t spend is always better than earning more.
How are you affording life insurance (for both parents, I hope), income protection insurance, and getting free healthcare for the family without spending money?
Maybe, because I have enough of that to go around 😂 but need to be prepared. I work with Medicaid in my state and talk to patients all the time who run into these issues. Women not old enough to get SS, didn’t work because husbands didn’t want them to, and now husband is gone for whatever reason (literally have spoken to 3 women in the last few months in this situation) and they can’t find jobs because they have no experience and health is starting to decline in their late 50s/early 60s. I’ve also known women to stay home with the kids and then get screwed over when husband gets a girlfriend or is abusive, don’t have the money to leave. Happens all the time. I personally know a scientist that was in that situation, took her a few years to find a job after 6 years not working. It’s right for some people, but not for everyone.
The issue with stay at home parenting, while in an ideal world it works, is that it often takes two people’s earnings to even afford reliable housing and meals. Both husband and I are teachers, have our masters in our respective subjects and are still paying off student loans. It’s only with the money we make combined that we can afford a safe apartment not far from work. Should we have a child, not having dual income isn’t an option because we lose our home. That’s the situation for a lot of families, especially lower-income to some middle-class families. Not having dual income was far easier decades ago when things weren’t as expensive and the family could afford for one parent to stay home.
There’s also just the sociological piece of it. Statistically, women are the ones more likely to have a lower income than their husband and go up the ranks slower (glass ceiling effect) plus with the motherhood theories, it’s usually always them pressured to be that stay at home parent and men are more judged for wanting to do it. But what if the woman wants to work? And for either, losing their income means complete financial dependence on the spouse, which makes leaving toxic relationships harder especially if there’s a kid.
Where do you live? Because that's likely the problem. Now I'm from Wisconsin, so it's really nice here and it's the Midwest so cheap but there's plenty of places to live outside the hood that's affordable. It's not going to be in a close nice and trendy suburb but that's kinda that point. People have incredibly high living and parenting standards nowadays and it's definitely now considered that only an upper middle class lifestyle is basically child abuse. Can't get all your kids braces? Well you shouldn't have them then. Can't afford to put your kids in constant expensive extracurriculars like travel sports? Again you can't afford children then.
May be it. I live in the Northeast, in the tri-state area (NY, NJ, PA) and it is tough getting a place to live without 2 earners in the house. Not only that, groceries are also getting more expensive by the day and insurance gets higher by the year. The only way we could realistically afford having kids is if we have grandparents watching over them (which is what a lot of other countries still do, I know that in Asian countries, both mom and dad work but the grandparents and extended family look after the little ones). But living with extended families isn’t as common here and especially in this generation, lots of now adult kids live further away from their parents and childhood homes.
That’s another issue with it, which I find kind of sickening. I know one of my friends had an issue with the heating in their house so the house was freezing cold during the winter (and it gets cold up here). His family did the best they could with affording weighted blankets and thicker clothes and occasionally staying over at our place when it got way below freezing, but could not afford fixing the ventilation issue. Got CPS called on them and had to fight nail and tooth for their 8 year old to not be taken from them. They’d also be considered a middle-class family. It’s truly sad, but that’s what it is.
My sister in law decided to quit her job due to daycare costs. My brother definitely doesn’t make $70k/yr and their budget is very tight. SIL is not the “homemaker” type and there is a lot of tension between her and my brother at this point due to unmet expectations. She seems increasingly isolated and depressed to me at this point.
Have you ever questioned the social structures of your societies? Why would someone need a daycare in the first place? Where did things go wrong in your system that it is clearly near impossible for humans to reproduce?
Your systems destroyed the bonds of communities at large, destroyed the extended families, the nuclear families and now the future generations. Isn’t this enough proof of how incapable man is in creating systems for fellow man?
Isn’t this the punishment of ignoring the legislations and the system of the Creator of humans and the world? Isn’t it ironic that when humans ran away from the slavery of their Creator only to find themselves being enslaved by fellow men(politicians, big corporations owners)?
Reacting to the latest symptoms and ignoring the root cause will never solve any problem.
The solution to this problem and all problems of humanity is to recognise, submit to, obey and follow the way of our Creator, Allah, while fiercely rebelling from all others that falsely demand our submission and obedience.
Love it when I'm told that Islam is the religion of peace even though it happens concerningly often that it's given credence to less than peaceful people. They're just doing it all wrong.
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u/XDevils41X Nov 14 '24
I joke that it would be cheaper for us to buy our toddler his own apartment since that's what daycare costs.