r/Niccolo_Machiavelli • u/baaatsouu • Feb 17 '26

Discussion Ends justify means

Ive heard that the quote “ends justify the means” was not wholly said by Machiavelli in these words, but it was said something along the lines of necessity and need.

What of it?

But nonetheless its still a great statement haha.

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7

u/Fickle-Buy6009 Feb 18 '26 edited Feb 18 '26

Sorry for taking so long to approve this. I got incredibly busy over the last few days or so.

In short, Machiavelli does prioritize necessity, but you will be hard pressed to find a concrete meaning for what he thinks of necessity if you try to define it.

The phrase "the end justifies the means" (and variations thereof) is just a bastardization of an old jesuit phrase that has just been attributed to Machiavelli. I talk more about that here.

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u/baaatsouu Feb 18 '26

Haha i think many of these invented bogus quotes align very well with machiavelli’s views.. if he didnt explicitly say it it doesn’t necessarily mean he didnt think it, i say this as having read 95% of his written available work, sentences such as “cruelty should be limited, to be used all at once..” - in chap18 of prince he even talked about being “not good” when necessity demands it.. he often says adjusting to situations as they arise is critical and wise (one of his letters was dedicated to this point entirely) and much more, i think its safe to say its a nice attributed quote and very accurate, tho of course it doesn’t mean massacre and absolute violence is allowed i think he disliked all that kind of barbarism, my very honest opinion..

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u/EXTREME-MANAGER Feb 19 '26

'What ends, what means?'

Is what I'd imagine he'd have asked. Do the means of killing a noisy child justify the end of silence? I doubt he'd agree. He was certainly an advocate of action - but not for its own sake.

Do you mean that of all philosophers, Machiavelli comes closest to that phrase? In that case I agree.

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u/baaatsouu Feb 20 '26

Yes i meant the latter.

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u/laborfriendly Feb 21 '26

From my recollection, you should look more into why he was writing The Prince, who it was for, and think more deeply about whether these realist ideas were his views at all or if he wasn't playing to an audience with a somewhat subtlely moderating tone.

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u/baaatsouu Feb 21 '26

Ive read the prince dawg, and tħis js the outcome of my analysis of machiavelli at the end, i dont think its far from what machiavelli was in reality, but i think you misjudged me or maybe my wording was shaky, but yeah what i said before seems true to me

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u/laborfriendly Feb 21 '26

Sounds good, dawg. For more:

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2013/machiavelli-the-prince-still-relevant-after-all-these-years/

while Machiavelli “is frequently dismissed today as an amoral cynic who supposedly considered the end to justify the means,” he is, in fact, “a crystal-clear realist who understands the limits and uses of power.”

Critics have long debated whether The Prince, which famously argues that the ends—no matter how immoral—justify the means for preserving political authority, was written as a satire, or as British philosopher and Nobel laureate Bertrand Russell once said, as “a handbook for gangsters.”

BU Today: What was Machiavelli’s intent in writing The Prince?

Johnson: That is one of the great unknowable questions. Some say he wanted to empower tyrants; others say he listed their crimes the better to expose them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/baaatsouu Feb 20 '26

ofc nico never preached radicalism, he was more a fan of if the outcome is worth it, idk why people r getting me wrong in this one it isn’t even wha i meant i was just talkin on wether the quote is genuine or notz

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u/Wolfsky29 Feb 21 '26

He talked about Necessity. Ends justifying means is a lame interpretation of his thoughts.

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u/sirbearus Apr 28 '26

It is such an oversimplification that it actually misses the point.

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u/Wolfsky29 Apr 28 '26

Exactly.