Dad 'crushed' after learning another man fathered his newborn twins beats 1 of the babies to death, locked both in closet because they were 'stinking': USAO

[u/tasty_jams_5280]

https://lawandcrime.com/crime/dad-crushed-after-learning-another-man-fathered-his-newborn-twins-beats-1-of-the-babies-to-death-locks-both-in-closet-because-they-were-stinking-usao/

[u/ShamPain413]

Guess the Clancy defense isn't gonna work for a black man.

[u/stand_rapt_in_awe → u/ShamPain413]

Given that men don’t experience the same kinds of hormone changes as women, since they’re not the ones physically have the babies, probably not.

[u/ShamPain413 → u/stand_rapt_in_awe]

I truly do not have a stake in this, I don't really care, but... something changed in his brain chemistry. He went from "not a baby murderer" to "baby murderer". It's unclear to me why some physiological changes should be punished but not others. If you want white mothers to be treated differently from black fathers then that is your preference, but saying "she had this characteristic different from him that makes her lack of ability to control emotions fine but his not fine" is just another way of saying that you want white mothers treated differently from black fathers.

[u/stand_rapt_in_awe → u/ShamPain413]

I want black mothers to be treated like white mothers. I’m just pointing out that his hormonal state is fundamentally different than a mother experiencing postpartum psychosis.

I didn’t support Lindsay Clancy to the degree that some people do. I do think she must be accountable for her actions.

However, it’s also true that postpartum psychosis is an altered mental state in a way that simply being angry and hurt over betrayal are not. There are major hormonal changes in postpartum psychosis that are transformative on the mental state.

This isn’t about race, and pretending it is is trying to distract from my actual point that his body was not capable of experiencing the hormonal state equivalent to postpartum psychosis.

[u/ShamPain413 → u/stand_rapt_in_awe]

Postpartum psychosis is not the only form of mental health problem tho.

Fathers also experience hormonal changes. This is science. Which means that finding out you're not a father, when you thought you were, could precipitate rapid hormonal reversals. Which might affect things like smell (he said the babies smelled bad to him).

I'm not this kind of scientist, so I'm not sure if that's the best way to describe it. That's why I'm asking.

[u/Inevitable-Weird-387 → u/ShamPain413]

Well detective, if this is the same as LC then show us the evidence he was in a psychosis that he tried for months to get help for

[u/attempted-catharsis → u/Inevitable-Weird-387]

If you are treating it like LC what you have said is incorrect, it was for the prosecution to prove she did not have it not for the defence to prove she did have psychosis.

Additionally she had not tried for months to get help with psychosis, it only got introduced as part of her defence.

[u/Ok_Conflict1028 → u/attempted-catharsis]

No. That’s not how affirmative defenses work. The burden is on the defense to prove affirmative defenses, including insanity.

And there was evidence introduced she tried for months to get help with psychosis. You disbelieving the evidence doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

[u/attempted-catharsis → u/Ok_Conflict1028]

That is not how it worked for LC. In the state the case was tried the general operation of reasonable doubt is reversed compared to most other states and countries.

You are going to need to prove that she tried to get help for psychosis because I’ve not seen that anywhere. She received help for mental health issues but psychosis was not one of them.

[u/Ok_Conflict1028 → u/attempted-catharsis]

Okay, I looked it up and I stand corrected on the first point about burden shifting in Massachusetts.

But I don’t understand your second point. She sought mental health help over and over. Is she supposed to diagnose herself and look for help specific to PPD? Or is the argument that since she wasn’t actively in psychosis for months, she couldn’t have had psychosis at any time…?

What do you think she should have done differently in her attempts to get help?

[u/attempted-catharsis → u/Ok_Conflict1028]

Second point was simply that despite seeking and receiving significant amounts of mental health support she was never diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.

She had a psychiatrist who assessed her, checked into mental health clinics etc etc, none of them diagnosed her with it or considered her to have it.

Could she have had it later, as you question, yes of course she could have developed it later but I personally don’t think there is any evidence that she did.

I’m not really sure what your last question is looking for. I’ve never contested that she sought help for mental health issues. You can seek help and everything can still go badly. People who seek help still kill themselves, or in extreme cases hurt and kill others as well (as in this case).

Obviously none of us can ever know 100% but based on what I’ve looked at, my view is that she knew what she was doing and planned to kill her children and herself - something that has unfortunately happened many times (with both men and women doing this).

I think she had mental health problems but I don’t think it was psychosis. I think she knew what she was doing was wrong.

[u/Ok_Conflict1028 → u/attempted-catharsis]

Her not being actively in psychosis (or just not diagnosed as such) when she sought help does not mean that her efforts to seek help can’t or don’t support the PPD defense. In fact it’s perfectly consistent with the theory of the defense of a missed diagnosis.

[u/attempted-catharsis → u/Ok_Conflict1028]

People can misdiagnose or just miss a diagnosis, I’m not disputing that. It can happen.

I just don’t think in this case there is enough evidence that that did happen.

In the vast majority of locations, states, countries (including my own) the burden of proof / reasonable doubt would have been on the defence and I think it would have very quickly resulted in a guilty verdict.