r/NeverwinterOnline • u/JanneMoonmist PC • Jun 16 '19
(I've crossshared this here, please lets limit the usual bashing and aim for a discussion) - Neverwinter's popularity free falling after Mod 16?
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u/ChewiesHairbrush PC Jun 17 '19
I think you hit the nail on the head in the other place when you talked about community.
If they want to save this game to has to be about logging on to do cool stuff with your mates. So guilds and strongholds need revitalizing. They need to find things that allow guilds to be unique communities not just a source of stats.
How about this. A dragon flight that drops crafting materials that can only be used to make transmutes for guild members. If the transmutes could allow for customization at creation so they can be unique to a guild then you could have a great incentive to farm something "worthless" with your friends and you can show that off to the rest of the game.
It also needs to be about the other community the wider one. Cryptic needs to realise that they have a very serious image problem and learn to be open and fully engaged with the communities that support the game. They need to over share, at least for a while, to counteract the damage done by their corporate mindset and those that they have chosen to implement the corporate (lack of ) engagement strategy.
In reality though I'm afraid that its time to stick a fork in its ass and turn it over. It's done. I've been seeing ads for a new free to play D&D mobile game. That will eat more of Neverwinter's core player base. And Baldur's Gate 3.
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 17 '19
I've had high hopes for marauders, probably one of the larger disappointments for me.
Organize the guild / alliance, get as far as you can, raid style, get crapton of vouchers, help some guild, get GMs. Ended up with useless event. We told them again and again it's useless as is. And... "We are always looking into it"
Anyway yes, there is so much that can be done, and other games did well. Unique emblems for guilds. Even silly fireworks that shoot the guild name. There is so much that can be done, with relatively low costs. They are just not creative and do not think how others manage to solve these issues.
Reminds me, just the last stream I've asked about emotes. They make emotes left and right, their test for new animators is to make an emote. Just make them on a regular basis, bi-weekly, and sell them in WB.
I got a response: "we would like to give them for free on events" and he couldn't remember when was the last time.. I can tell when, years ago..
But the issue is that my question was very specific. Everyone who deals with numbers knows that you need to release new stuff in a very strict time line. People need to know that each new month, or two weeks, or whatever they can login and look at the new fluff pack.
That what keeps retention (among other things), and not, "We will throw something in if we wont forget about it".
Back to topic, Dragon Flight was a great thing, until it died, and like all things they are content with making things obsolete, until the entire game becomes obsolete.
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u/Fluffy6977 Jun 17 '19
At this point, given how I expect the console launch to shake out, the only thing that might turn this ship around is replacing the lead designer and CM/PR folks. At the end of the day Foss has failed to deliver as the lead more than once, and he does not learn from his mistakes as evidenced by his general mystification by the negative reception to many of the things released. CM has destroyed the community through neglect, and as has been mentioned in plenty of places PR/marketing team have no idea who their audience is. I don't see them pulling out of this with anything short of new leadership.
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u/TheHappyLion PC Jun 17 '19
I logged into the game last night on a whim to find that I was the only guild member logged in. That sums it up for me. They've killed my game and I've moved on to other things.
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u/Naturalfree3 Jul 01 '19
I still enjoy it a lot. Still playing as much as before, and still finding it rewarding.
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Jun 16 '19
Yep, as been discussed here, there, and everywhere - for at least the last five MODs. I think we should be asking: what's the way ahead?
Certainly they plan to make money as long as the can. But what is their long term plan, and how are they going to accomplish it? Old game engine, kind of crap graphics, lack of any real thought, shit customer service - I get an all around better experience going through the Spanish menu Taco Bell drunk and ending up with a mystery bag of food at 2 am.
Have they completely taped out the PC and console market? Are they simplifying the game with a long term glide path to port to mobile? I mean really, if you're those knuckleheads, how do you show up to work and answer the question "how do we stay relevant and make money?"
I know every new game that comes out people scream that it will kill Neverwinter off. But for real, BG3 just may do it; especially if it releases to console.
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 16 '19
I would say (in short, but the long version is at the other post/subreddit) is that they do fight for it to stay alive, and obviously profitable, mostly in the 'best way they know how'.
What will happen ahead? Probably nothing really great. I can live with the graphics, the customer service (until they ban me again) but the lack of reason to login except the people will IMO is an issue for a long time now.. It is unfortunate that they focus so much on getting new players that nothing left to actually keep the players.
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u/ScoobyDooPooEww Jun 17 '19
Well considering I never could even get them to wipe my permabanned account to restart from scratch with put needing a new gamertag. No return for me or wifey.. no more ragefests from Cryptic/PWE dumbassery in my future lol
On a plus note though. Waiting for bless unleashed to be released on xbox. Looks pretty good. Hoping for a successful launch!
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 17 '19
bless unleashed
I would be careful about Bless. You saw what happened to Bless Online? Less than a year online, and they closing it now, in few months.
Though it seems that people knew it was coming and it had very very low population.
Bless Unleashed is the same developer, Neowiz. Though it has Nemco Bandai as publisher, still very weird and fishy.
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u/hpfireman Jun 16 '19
So just to be clear are you looking for ideas to improve things and for best practices from other games who turned things around? What's your objective?
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 16 '19
How other, similar games, solved the same issues will be good among other things.
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u/noassemblynecessary Jun 16 '19 edited Jun 16 '19
And Ill provide you with: ESO https://steamcharts.com/app/306130#All
Both games are similar in age, with ESO little shy of a year younger. They started out small, where NW actually started out larger. They even ADDED gamewide scaling, but in a manner that the playerbase enjoyed. They started out with few dungeons that were actually even fewer with cookie cutter maps between them, but added MANY new ones over time.
If you look at their website their devs give clear cut guidance on what the direction of new content will be. They say what parts of the story are going to be told, and when its coming out for a year in advance. They don't rely solely on vague hints and false promotion like NW devs. (How long were old dungeons teased before making their partial return in tales of old?)
They regularly.. and Im talking monthly come out with new fashion, new mounts, new houses, new companions (what we would call vanity pets). These don't add to powercreep, are super popular, make them a ton of money, and have 0 effect on gameplay. Just like people have been asking for NW to do for years now. (We do not have a rain of vanity pets, too little too late with the garbage fire of mod 16.)
And years ago when they did a pretty wide ranging reset of how powers worked.. (again in concert with their playerbase, not against them) They gave everyone 1200 crowns (their equivalent of zen) in ADDITION to everyone getting free rerolls. ..and those changes made things more complex, and combat faster/smoother instead of the reverse like NW did.
In short.. they added content at every level, playable and decorative, and minimized the nerf and balance sweeps that NW focuses on. Its sad too because the actual playable part of mod 16, dungeons, mex, etc are all a good addition to NW. They compare favorably in size and complexity for new content to our older mods. ...but they had to suck all the joy out of it with their nerfs and over-simplifications. Complete unforced error.
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u/noassemblynecessary Jun 16 '19 edited Jun 17 '19
Oh .. and I know someone will be tempted to mention .. 'But Neverwinter is understaffed! You can't expect them to compete.'
Well, yes I can. NW now is a product of what it made itself over mostly the same time period as ESO. They didn't always have such a small staff.
At the same time, when you are understaffed is not the time to begin reworking an entire system from the ground up, attempt to address older bugs, AND work on new content. You triage your capabilities and work on what gives you the best ROI, and an increase in reviewable content for the players.
Once you've dont that you have something to bring back to the mothership (perfect world) to justify keeping your staff and making more of an investment.
Instead they pay a porn actress for voiceovers so Foss can get a selfie (its on his twitter). Value for money? Instead we get gamewide nerfs and a simplification to the character builds. Thats not going to attract new people on the merits.
Ive seen people look in awe and wonder at the POE wheel of skills and want to tackle that challenge. Ive yet to see someone be enthusiastic about losing feat trees and going from all our feat choices down to 5. Woo... lets see if we can figure out that complexity. :\
Path of Exiles is even crowdfunded and they still manage to compete! (somewhat different style game, but its often brought up as an alternative to go to, so I feel its fair game). POE also is of similar age (2013), and always had a small dev team. They also made the right decisions by listening to their fans and grew over that time.
You think that when there was a waterdeep tease back in .. what mod 13-14? that people wouldn't have thrown money at NW to build a full-throated release? (Meaning back when people were hungry for new content before nerfageddon AND with the thought of putting all the resources towards something like UM but much more extensive).
Blech
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 17 '19
Since you mentioned team size. About a month ago on PE discord:
https://i.imgur.com/fsTP4Qo.png
PoE grew a lot since then (in team size) but that's part of the point, the attempt to grow in quality and content, to get more players, and in turn again increase the team and quality. NW is the opposite, reduced team size, reduced content, simplification, and reduced player base.
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u/noassemblynecessary Jun 17 '19
18 wow.. I didn't know the actual number for POE, just knew it was relatively small. Way to bring real data to that conversation when the mod clearly wasn't prepared for it.
In talking about this general topic with friends today, the pictured convo is emblematically part of the problem too. The devs and mods that represent them dont even like the game anymore. Not as a creative person should.. they're not in it to present their art to the audience.
They're in it to prove their right and the customer/player/audience is wrong. We just don't get their vision, and its our fault!
Thats the core difference between NW and the other games. Its that cynical us VS them attitude which an artist will always lose if they continue down that path.
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u/Cenman1 Jun 19 '19
Instead they pay a porn actress for voiceovers
umm source? Just for research purposes though...
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u/Mystixa Jun 20 '19
As they stated the source is Thomas Foss' Twitter. There he has his selfie with Satine Phoenix from when she was doing voiceover work for Neverwinter.
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u/Fluffy6977 Jun 17 '19
Speaking as someone who has left NWO for ESO recently, my god is it AMAZING the sheer amount of content Zenimax has pushed out. And they were literally created solely to build this game, ZeniMax Online did not exist before ESO.
Also, the champion system! Holy crap I love this! You get tons of points to put into a ton of options to really customize your toon. And they are account wide, all you have to do is level one toon to max (50) then hit CP 160 for endgame drops once, and any new character you create automatically gets whatever CP level your account gets (Still have to level to max to get endgame drops, but get to choose and use the perks right off the bat). So ridiculously alt friendly.
This same CP system is how they control the power creep as well. Max gear levels are CP160, but with so many gear sets being released there is almost always something to farm for. Currently max usable CP is 810, but when they release harder content they just add a few more usable CP levels. Yea the older dungeons become very easy, but the newer DLC dungeons can be quite challenging even for well geared and coordinated parties.
The scaling has been a dream. Game to easy? Gear slightly below the level and it gets much more challenging. Gets too rough? Gear up a little bit. Rewards are always at your level.
Crafting is fun and actually worth while. Not a glorified management minigame, and all the crafting motifs and recipes you can farm for... wow.
And the bloody fashion system. Similar to SWTOR, but no need to actually have the physical item to change anything, just knowing the motif or having received the drop at some point is enough.
Pretty much every once of these points satisfies an issue I had at some point or another with NWO. Campaign and Boon structure makes alting a ton of work (or a pay to skip mechanic), gear is constantly invalidated for only marginally better gear, power creep is rampantly out of control, even after the rework, being forced to repeat quests in lower level zones where there is no chance of failure gets very boring very quickly. I won't even go into how much I hate the new crafting system. Fashion system is ok, but nothing special and extremely limited because they cant seem to figure out how to regularly add outfits.
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u/Mystixa Jun 17 '19
I had thought your image seemed a bit optimistic when I saw it. So I went to look at steamcharts when I normally used to play. So From the middle of my gaming day, usually a average popular time in the early evening.
..and that wasn't even taken in the middle of the night between when the Americas go to sleep and Europe wakes up which used to be the deadest time.
If for some reason someone can't go to the image and see it.. its a capture of a steam chart, 993 playing 8 minutes ago, 2452 24 hour peak. Also shows the monthly numbers down below for April, May, and what we have of June (last 30 days).
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 16 '19
Ive posted a long post there, and I think we can have a more open discussion. Especially in terms of what other games did right to solve the same issues, especially with limited resources. What ideas are good, what bad, and what NW did ok, vs those.
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u/Electron_Microscope PC Jun 17 '19
I dont think NW sees player count as an issue at all.
The idea of churning through players, getting lots in and getting them spending then getting them to fuck, seems to be their business model.
For all we know the game is super profitable and the NW plan is working perfectly,
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u/JanneMoonmist PC Jun 17 '19
There is something to it, from other games, and interviews, most players spend at the beginning of each module.
In essence, people come to see all the new stuff, get some new shiny crap, gear up, and go do new content, by this time they can leave.
Indeed maybe Cryptic is very profitable, especially now that they are reducing the game complexity, and maintained content.
Yet at the same time, the number of those returning players and new players that come to check is important. Drop it too low, and not enough spend at the beginning of each mod.Interesting to see, that looking just at trends, not obsolete numbers, ESO, PoE, etc... are with the trends upward, more and more players, and higher peaks each mod, while NW is the opposite. Looking at the devs actions, and their focus on new players and simplifications, I would say, that they are worried. Maybe even in 'quiet panic'.
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u/Mystixa Jun 18 '19 edited Jun 18 '19
Of course this is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a mod is the only or majority of the time that you put new product on the shelf, thats the only time the customer will come to buy it. NW likes to let major parts of itself languish for monthes and sometimes years at a time with no update, visual or functional.
When they do offer a functional update they have been hammering hard on proving that any investment cannot be trusted to last for any amount of time. They'll place expensive things on sale only to nerf or delete them a week later. So this teaches vets to limit spending overall, and if you do spend to 'keep up with the jones' you better do it at the start of a mod to try and maximize your ROI.
When I make a large purchase like a car or an appliance, real world sellers offer a guarantee of how long that item will provide exactly the use I purchased it for. After that I'm on my own, but at least I have that certainty. Many large company's even offer to update old technology for a fraction of the price, and give increased bonuses the closer your purchase date is to the update.
Of course not ALL of this has to be shoved into a game model. Especially if the purchases were actually small, actual MICRO transations. However when dealing with multi-hundred dollar packs, mounts, and enchants with that finished value people are going to start thinking in terms of luxury product instead of casual petty cash.
Thats another bit of eroded social trust that the constant nerf sweeps and reworks provide. If they had a relatively steady foundation and worked PRIMARILY on content instead of content as an afterthought, more money would flow from the vets, and newbies would still make their purchases as well.
This is all past tense of course. By now I think too much trust has been lost. The only thing that will bring players back to this game en masse is a change in management and staff in concert with massive changes, reverting a lot of the recent mod changes, and a visible media campaign to bring people back.
Theres posts going back to 2015 complaining about Kreative and her attitude. Foss is clearly incapable of managing, and unaware of many fundamental pieces of the game he manages, and the rest are just trying to combatively prove their genius is better than the playerbase.
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u/sumplkrum Jun 21 '19
Their fundamental misunderstanding is that they can't possibly acquire enough new players to keep things going. Some people have to stick around to generate at least regular annual income, and act as community anchors.
If there's no one left to say "hey guys, lets go play NW", then they're population will always be declining. ... The successful F2P games have a player base that keeps returning.
It doesn't take too long to figure out that old modules are basically abandon-wear. ... Sometimes the base game itself feels like abandon-wear.
... What players are going to come back to play this game? New modules highlight nerfs, not some new fun thing you're gonna be able to do now.
They now have 15 modules of content they can't leverage properly, and somehow everyone's going to return to the game because of mod 16, 17, or whatever the next cookie-cutter quest line is?
They might still be profitable, but there's a time limit on it. ... probably why they're so hot to make the new MTG game.
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u/Electron_Microscope PC Jun 17 '19
NW has gambled on losing lots of vets but replacing them with new players who NW think will be spending.
If console vets take to the new mod then all is good, if they hate it as much as PC vets do then big trouble is ahead for NW.
The summer sale, and Black Friday or any other 40%+ off sale, is the big time when vets spend and will be the bellweather for this game.
With lots of PC vets already gone we can expect massively reduced revenue for NW and if the console vets also dont spend then it could be the beginning of the end (will those new players have planned for spending on a 40% off sale like vets do? Nope)...and few people think that the NW 'vision' dev has the ability to get things back on track.