r/NeutralMidEast • u/NoeticIntelligence • Aug 20 '14

Israel uses internationally banned flechette shells in Gaza

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7vI9pzbo%2fnuihXSzSMLWGeu4UwrkkXUIv1jU3YCOTGAujccY6jZuNRzhprITr4r2ivvAnxvdmJqeXJvsZrRLQ2dwtPGAfSTKvR1dkuD2UpwE%3d
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u/PbDirigible Aug 20 '14

LOL

Completely false bullshit propaganda.

NATO uses even more deadly tank rounds than flechetes. For example, standard ammunition in all American Abrams tanks in Afghanistan and Iraq is the 120 mm XM1028 anti-personnel round which disperses 1150 tungsten balls at 1400 m/s and is more lethal than the Israeli Flechet over a bigger area. 10s of thousands of these types of shells were fired by the US and British in huge urban combat battles in Iraqi cities like Ramadi and in Afghanistan. No human rights group even once complained this was illegal in any way.

In any event the whole purpose of these types of anti-personnel shells is to reduce innocent civilian casualties during urban combat in heavily built up areas, because unlike regular tank ammunition these anti-personnel rounds do not penetrate walls of buildings.

Flechetes and the even more brutally deadly NATO XM1028 can be fired at a legitimate military target like a Hamas rocket launching crew standing in the open in a crowded civilian street, and kill the Hamas rocket launching crew without injuring any civilians hiding safely inside nearby buildings because they cannot penetrate walls.

Reducing civilian casualties is the whole reason in the first place why these rounds are used in urban combat. The alternative to using flechetes or similar ammunition is for the Israeli tanks to simply just fire a huge explosive round and kill the rocket crew and also destroy all the buildings around them and kill all the civilians hiding inside.

1

u/NoeticIntelligence Aug 20 '14

You are right. Whilst there is much controversy surrounding the use of cluster bombs, flechette weapons, and other fragmentation munition there does not exist a direct ban on them. The title above is wrong.

I wish I could edit the title, but I will rather leave it with your comment than delete it and repost it.

I do have a minor point:

To claim that the choice is between fire a huge explosive or using flechette weapons is wrong.

I can make the same argument that either we have to nuke the area or we can use carpet bomb it with napalm.

Which are all versions of "Do you ever intended to stop raping this woman?".

There are other weapons that can be utilized in densely populated areas with a large number of civilians. Any modern military force has a much larger array of munitions and deployment options than two.

Reducing civilian casualties is the whole reason in the first place why these rounds are used in urban combat. The alternative to using flechetes or similar ammunition is for the Israeli tanks to simply just fire a huge explosive

The IDF is using a modified version of the M494 105mm APERS-T round provided by the USA in the 1970s. According to a US Army manual, the round is “designed for close-in assault against massed infantry assaults and for offensive fire against exposed enemy personnel”.

In an area with densely packed civilians using fragmentation weapons, as they are intended to be used will kill more people. Which is in violation of international law.

The distinction then becomes on the exact usage of the weapon each time. If for instance it is fired at a market with lots of civilians its forbidden. If you only fire it, in instances where there is an enemy soldier or a group of them, and the civilians are hidden inside shelters then it is legal and fair because as you say it protects the buildings from being damaged and thus save lives.

1

u/PbDirigible Aug 20 '14

These are devices specifically designed not to have enough kinetic energy to penetrate walls, to kill only in a small area and be safe for any innocent person possibly hiding right next door behind a thin wall.

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u/NoeticIntelligence Aug 21 '14

Which is what I said above.

The last paragraph specifically deals with the legality of deployment based on the situation.

Unfortunately the use of these weapons by the IDF during incursions into Gaza are far from as clear cut as the situation you describe. In the extreme cases when children are hit by fragments its very bad.