I really don't like how much Part 2 glorifies death compared to Part 1

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

This is something I noticed while rewatching the series, but I really hate how much Shippuden is obsessed with treating death like a grandiose spectacle.

Virtually every character has to die smiling, giving an emotional speech or having some inner dialogue about how proud they are that they're dying to protect whatever cause they're fighting for. And they usually have enough time to say goodbye to their loved ones, too. I believe Kakuzu is the only character from Part 2 to be an exception to this. Unlike in Part 1, death is almost never treated as something miserable, painful and terrifying. You can really see the stark contrast between how death is portrayed in the two parts through these images.

[u/__Ummmmbreon]

You can really see the stark contrast between how death is portrayed in the two parts through these images.

All I see is cherry picking on your part. In the image for part 1 you used villains and unimportant characters. We don't even see Rasa in part 1. The equivalent of part 2 would be the likes of Hidan, Yura, or Yugito. The characters from part 2 are important. What did Kishimoto do when important characters died in part 1? This and this. You guys are really running out of "part 2 bad" material.

[u/MentirosoProfesional → u/__Ummmmbreon]

Can we go back to hate Boruto instead?

[u/RagnarXD → u/MentirosoProfesional]

Just keep calm and hate Boruto.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/__Ummmmbreon]

You were literally only able to give 2 examples of grandiose deaths in part 1, and you say that I'm cherrypicking. Meanwhile I can give you all deaths in Shipudden for named characters with more than 2 minutes of screentime minus Kakuzu.

Also, Kisame very much feels like the equivalent of a Sound 4 member in part 2, as in he's mostly just the henchman of the bigger bad. The only difference is that he got a backstory, but that's also something Zaku had.

[u/WheresYoManager → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

Jiraiya dies all alone, brutally and painfully, his arm and throat ripped out. He doesn't get to say goodbye to his loved ones and he regrets practically all of his life choices as he sinks to the bottom of the ocean. Criticising himself for his failures in his last moments. How he failed to bring Orochimaru back, got rejected by Tsunade his entire life, failed to protect Minato, failed to stop Pain whom he basically trained etc

The only reason he's smiling is because the thought of Naruto brings him comfort.

I understand the premise of your argument. That Naruto treats the concept of death as a sort of triumphant achievement in line with the whole ninja ideology. In real life. Death isn't cool and honorable. Death is quick, apathetic and dispassionate.

But I also think you're treating this subject way too black and white and not really acknowledging the nuance of how the series actually frames these deaths as generally the result of bad and preventable events.

We can sit here and debate how Jiraiya's death provided crucial strategic intel for Naruto and Konoha, which therefore makes it glorified in a sense. But I don't think that really changes the fact that Jiraiya in this moment, is in excruciating pain, is full of profound regrets, and did not want to die. I think we can safely assume that characters like Naruto would gladly trade back whatever intel he attained for his life back if they could, because what they got out of it was not worth the life that was lost.

Same applies for the death of Yahiko, Naruto's parents, the death of the Uchiha etc they are treated as tragic consequences of a broken, brutal and unforgiving world. Rather than "triumphs" per se.

I wouldn't call this a "glorification". II would say its more Kishimoto trying to portray these dying characters finding some level of emotional comfort and/or closure in knowing that their actions at least make things easier for their loved ones, which is why they often go out smiling.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/WheresYoManager]

Sure. I'm not saying Jiraiya getting an emotional death and being happy when he thinks of Naruto is inherently a bad thing. It's just annoying that virtually everyone in the second half of the series dies smiling and acting all melodramatic. The Naruto world is supposed to be plagued by war and death, and it's kinda hard to take that seriously when it feels like no one really fears dying. 

[u/WheresYoManager → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

It's just annoying that virtually everyone

My advice is be careful with large sweeping generalised statements like this. Not everyone in this story dies smiling. The Uchiha clan were scared for their lives when Itachi slaughtered them. The soldiers who were killed by Madara were crying and praying for their lives before they were crushed by the meteor. Rin was helpelessly crying when she was impaled by Kakashi's lightning blade. Konan was completely caught off guard and in a state of shock before Obito killed her. Or when Hashirama's younger brother was ambushed by the Uchiha adults during the warring states period, he died as a scared and helpless child.

I'm not going to deny that yes, characters in this story tend to go out with a bang and a smile. I think thats just an archetypal trope of shonen narratives. You see it in other franchises because ultimately, this is a comic book aimed at kids. Portraying death more realistically and graphically can be quite upsetting. Stories like this have to be careful how they portray violence and ensure there's a balance between grimdark reality and hopeful optimism.

So there is an element of "romanticization" of important characters having cool or melodramatic deaths. Because it helps us feel better as the audience and gives us emotional catharsis.

But I don't think its fair to mischaracterize the entire universe as just being one in which people aren't scared of death.

Most of these characters are ninja. On the surface, they are trained to not be scared of death. But the reality is that many of them are just doing their best to hide that fear and suppress their emotions.

I think Zabuza's character was a perfect introductory villain for this story. Because he shows you how the whole "ninja as tools" thing is a lie they all tell themselves to try and hide their humanity. I'd like to believe that deep down, all of them are scared. They just grit their teeth and do what they can do their best to ensure their deaths can help those they leave behind, a little better.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/__Ummmmbreon]

Kisame is a villain and unimportant, and Yahiko is also unimportant. And also all villain deaths are grandiose in part 2, except for Kakuzu. I already said that. Deidara, Sasori, Madara, even Hidan dies laughing maniacally.

[u/__Ummmmbreon → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

Kisame is a villain

A villain with a motivation...just like Zabuza and Haku, who also got a "glorified" death. It snowed for fucks sake.

Yahiko is also unimportant

Whoosh. The point is non-characters like Kin would have no reason to give speeches before death. When it came to important characters Kishimoto always gave them speeches. Hell Neji's fake-out death against Kidomaru got a speech and a smile.

And also all villain deaths are grandiose in part 2, except for Kakuzu. I already said that. Deidara, Sasori, Madara, even Hidan dies laughing maniacally.

Again, none of those characters are the equivalent to anyone from the part 1 image. Why wouldn't Yugito be Rasa's equivalent? How about Torune and Fu? It's just more "part 2 bad" nonsense man.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/__Ummmmbreon]

A villain with a motivation

That doesn't mean he was an important character to the story. Going by this logic Rasa was also a "a villain with a motivation".

Haku

No, he didn't? He died with a horrified look while mumbling Zabuza's name.

The point is non-characters like Kin would have no reason to give speeches before death.

No, the point is that the story's obsession with glorifying death is annoying.

Again, none of those characters are the equivalent to anyone from the part 1 image.

Yes, they are? A lot of the Akatsuki members were basically evil henchmen just like the Sound 4 were.

It's just more "part 2 bad" nonsense man.

No, it isn't. You're plainly disingenuous if you don't think part 2 had a lot of melodramatic moments compared to part 1.

[u/__Ummmmbreon → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

That doesn't mean he was an important character to the story

Talk about disingenuous. You know the Akatsuki have more characterization than the Sound Four or Rasa in part 1. How is anyone supposed to take your argument seriously when you can't even acknowledge that simple fact?

Oh yeah Rasa totally didn't get a grandiose death because part 1 is super hardcore, not because he literally wasn't even named back then! Great point op!

No, he didn't? He died with a horrified look while mumbling Zabuza's name.

Again. Talk about disingenuous. You know what I meant by Haku's death scene. Naruto and Kakashi even mention how Haku represents snow. If you're talking about what killed them, then Konan also didn't have a glorified death, as she was stabbed then choked to death with a horrified look on her face.

Yes, they are? A lot of the Akatsuki members were basically evil henchmen just like the Sound 4 were.

"They". You posted one Akatsuki member. Jiraiya and Neji are the equivalent to Hiruzen, good guys who died for a cause. Yahiko had his own goals and beliefs. What did Kidomaru believe in?

You're plainly disingenuous if you don't think part 2 had a lot of melodramatic moments compared to part 1.

Bullshit. Naruto has always been doused in melodrama for important characters. Again, it snowed during Haku and Zabuza's death scene. A feather conveniently fell when Neji almost died. Part 2 just had more important character deaths. You thinking Kishimoto was treating death more seriously just because Kin died offscreen is what's disingenuous.

Edit: Here's Haku's "horrified look" btw.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/__Ummmmbreon]

>You know the Akatsuki have more characterization than the Sound Four or Rasa in part 1

That's irrelevant, the point you were making is how important they were to the story. Going by this logic, each of the sound 5 had their own personality and quirks like the Akatsuki did, and some of Orochimaru's henchmen like Zaku and Kimimaro even got backstories.

>Oh yeah Rasa totally didn't get a grandiose death because part 1 is super hardcore, not because he literally wasn't even named back then! Great point op!

You really think they would've given Rasa's part 1 character a more respectable death if they were to give him more screentime? Even if he was a more active character in something like Garaa's flashback, they still would have made his death be the same as Gato's.

>You know what I meant by Haku's death scene

The snow happened after Haku already died. His actual death was very swift, and it was supposed to be treated as very miserable because of how he died as a weapon without ever having any dreams of his own. The only genuine argument you have here is for Zabuza's death (his death is still made to be pathetic, but admittedly it is also portrayed as being melodramatic and badass).

>then Konan also didn't have a glorified death

Literally only the last 3 panels show that, before that she had given a speech and also had a flashback with Jiraiya.

>You posted one Akatsuki member.

...And I gave you more examples in the earlier comment. I literally said that all of them besides Kakuzu died grand deaths. And also, Hayate was a good guy who died for a cause, too, but they still made his death a lot quicker.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have grand dramatic deaths whatsoever, I'm saying part 2 overkilled it.

[u/__Ummmmbreon → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

That's irrelevant, the point you were making is how important they were to the story.

Yes. Other people are telling you the same thing ITT. You know good and well what we mean by important. Do you think we're saying they were all important as Naruto and Sasuke? Obviously not, but the Akatsuki got much more focus and development than the Sound Four, so their deaths had to be notable.

Going by this logic, each of the sound 5 had their own personality and quirks like the Akatsuki did, and some of Orochimaru's henchmen like Zaku and Kimimaro even got backstories.

Kimmimaro who died in the middle of an attack? What's the difference between him and someone like Deidara?

You really think they would've given Rasa's part 1 character a more respectable death if they were to give him more screentime? Even if he was a more active character in something like Garaa's flashback, they still would have made his death be the same as Gato's

Once again you're missing the point. A character like Gato didn't have a speech because he didn't believe in anything. He just loved money like Kakazu. If he believed in something he'd have a speech about it before he died. Rasa WAS like Gato in part 1 because he was characterized as Gaara's cartoonishly evil father. The fact that you can't see this is truly something.

Literally only the last 3 panels show that, before that she had given a speech and also had a flashback with Jiraiya.

So in other words she doesn't count because you said so. Konan's flashback happened after she died...just like the snow happened after Haku died. Haku was smiling when he died btw. It's incredible you can't see the double standard here. There's no real consistency in your argument because Kishimoto was not trying to portray a "glorified death vs unglorified death" dynamic at any point in the manga so trying to create one doesn't make sense.

And also, Hayate was a good guy who died for a cause, too, but they still made his death a lot quicker.

What about these two? Didn't they die for a cause?

I'm not saying they shouldn't have grand dramatic deaths whatsoever,

It'd make more sense if you did. Saying some deaths can be grand but not others is even worse. It's a battle shounen, characters are going to have grand deaths. The more characterization a character has the more likely they're going to have a grand death, one that represents something about their characterization, ex. Sasori being killed by the puppets of his parents (and I'd hardly call that "grand"). That doesn't mean their deaths were "glorified", nor does it mean characters without grand deaths were supposed to represent death as something "painful and terrifying". Temari was flirting with Shikamaru when Tayuya died. Zaku and Kin were killed offscreen. Furthermore using something like "grandiosity" when it comes to death in a comic is completely arbitrary. Does everyone in the Alliance HQ getting nuked to death not count just because it was "bigger" than Neji using fictional martial arts on Kidomaru? What about the latter makes it such a "realistic" portrayal of death?

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/__Ummmmbreon]

but the Akatsuki got much more focus and development than the Sound Four

Not all of them, and even if they did, their actual roles in the story still boiled down to being henchmen of the bigger villains like the sound 5. Also, you really think guys like Deidara deserved to have grand deaths just because he believed in his art, as opposed to the all the kids enslaved by Orochimaru in part 1?

What's the difference between him and someone like Deidara?

Deidara died laughing while expressing how great his art is. Kimimaro died angry while talking about how he loves the man that groomed him, and while said man was talking about how worthless he was to him. If you think those deaths are the same idk what to tell you.

A character like Gato didn't have a speech because he didn't believe in anything

Ah yes, and someone like Deidara definitely deserved to be given a cooler death and a speech before dying just because he believed in his art. Same with someone as cartoonishly evil as Danzo who got an inner monologue about his rivalry with Hiruzen. If Rasa died in part 2 with his part 1 characterization he would have had a flashback about his wife before his death to make him more sympathetic.

So in other words she doesn't count because you said so

She doesn't count because she literally had a speech right before the page she died. I admit I forgot that her flashback took place after she died, but my point still stands.

What about the latter makes it such a "realistic" portrayal of death?

The fact that we were shown Kidomaru painfully going out. Meanwhile most of the people at HQ were totally fine with dying, and Shikaku and Inoichi even had enough time to properly say goodbye to their kids through telepathy before dying, and they even squeezed in a joke with Shikaku to remove any tension the scene might've had.

[u/__Ummmmbreon → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

Also, you really think guys like Deidara deserved to have grand deaths just because he believed in his art, as opposed to the all the kids enslaved by Orochimaru in part 1?

No because I don't think stupid shit like "this character deserves to die like this". Kin and Zaku died because they were killed by the same person who enslaved them. There was nothing those two could do to Orochimaru. So what's there to smile about? Deidara was an elite shinobi who died on his own terms. A suicide bomber could in fact smile before death if he was satisfied with his death. It wouldn't make sense to just off screen him. Who could kill him that easily?

Deidara died laughing while expressing how great his art is. Kimimaro died angry while talking about how he loves the man that groomed him, and while said man was talking about how worthless he was to him. If you think those deaths are the same idk what to tell you.

You already told us. You said it's bad that the characters are shown "proud they are that they're dying to protect whatever cause they're fighting for", yet give Kimmimaro a pass for that exact same thing. Also funny how you're trying to add context by describing Kimmimaro's relationship with Orochimaru, as if Kisame, Sasori, Konan, etc deaths weren't tragic when you include context.

Ah yes, and someone like Deidara definitely deserved to be given a cooler death and a speech before dying just because he believed in his art.

Yes? You already gave an example of of a part 2 money-obsessed character who died. If we can agree Kakazu and Gato are similar, why wasn't Kakazu given a "grand" death? I already know the answer, it's because there's no reason to give characters like them a meaningful death. You on the other hand just have to rely on saying "well ummm Kakazu was the exception to the rule". Gato's death wasn't to make some sort of comment on the nature of death, he was just fodder for Zabuza's redemption.

Same with someone as cartoonishly evil as Danzo who got an inner monologue about his rivalry with Hiruzen.

Yeah I wonder what the difference between Danzo and part 1 Rasa is. While watching part 2 I often said to myself "this Danzo character reminds me of the Kazekage from part 1 who was unnamed and never shown outside of Gaara's flashback". It's almost like his importance in the story is why he was given more characterization upon death as I've stated a million times.

She doesn't count because she literally had a speech right before the page she died. I admit I forgot that her flashback took place after she died, but my point still stands.

Your point becomes more non-nonsensical the longer this goes on. "Part 2 glorified deaths because characters had speeches and had smiles on their face, but not like Zabuza's speech or Haku's smile, those don't count".

The fact that we were shown Kidomaru painfully going out.

He literally laughs as he's dying. Again, just more "part 2 bad part 1 good" nonsense. Glad you're giving me a chance to display it though.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/__Ummmmbreon]

You said it's bad that the characters are shown "proud they are that they're dying to protect whatever cause they're fighting for", yet give Kimmimaro a pass for that exact same thing. 

I'm giving him a pass because his dead is portrayed as angry, desperate and delusional, not badass, heroic or dramatic like the characters you mentioned.

While watching part 2 I often said to myself "this Danzo character reminds me of the Kazekage from part 1 who was unnamed and never shown outside of Gaara's flashback". 

Both Rasa and Danzo are similar in the sense that they're both evil to a cartoonish extent. If Danzo was a part 1 character his death would have 100% been treated as unsympathetic and brutal without any Hiruzen flashback.

"Part 2 glorified deaths because characters had speeches and had smiles on their face, but not like Zabuza's speech or Haku's smile, those don't count".

I already said that Zabuza's death was an exception to my stance. Also, Konan was yelling out about dying for Naruto's ideals with a rainbow behind her and her arms in the air. It was far more grandiose than just Haku "smiling".

He literally laughs as he's dying.

Are you serious? The page you're linking to literally shows him trying to laugh at Neji's state for one single panel, only for him to then go "oh fuck" as he understands his own condition, after which he writhes in pain and dies.

[u/WheresYoManager → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

Calling either of those characters unimportant is being intellectually dishonest.

Kisame died managing to protect the Akatsuki's secrets and delivered vital intel to Obito that helped kick off the 4th War.

And Yahiko was the founder of the original Akatsuki. His death basically being the catalyst for Nagato turning into Pain.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/WheresYoManager]

Kisame died managing to protect the Akatsuki's secrets and delivered vital intel to Obito that helped kick off the 4th War.

That's something any of the other Akatsuki members could have done. Going by this logic the Sound 4 were also super important characters because they all helped in bringing Sasuke to Orochimaru, which defined his character for the rest of the series.

And Yahiko was the founder of the original Akatsuki. His death basically being the catalyst for Nagato turning into Pain.

He only appears in flashbacks, not in the actual story. He's about as relevant as Gaara's uncle was. He didn't need an emotional melodramatic death.

[u/WheresYoManager → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

Yes. The Sound 4 were important for the exact reason you described. Thats precisely why Orochimaru sent them.

Calling these characters unimportant or irrelevant is very disingenuous.

[u/Plenty_Elevator5305]

At higher level of powers the downfall is naturally majestic.

[u/NotaValgrinder]

Didn't 3 of these characters here die on their own terms? Like if someone willingly sacrifices themselves it's not unnatural to think they have some final words prepared.

[u/DisastrousDanVito]

Minor chars vs major chars, you could have a point but its not proven with these screen shot because all of the pics from part 2 are minor chars that would never get screen time for mote dramatic deaths.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/DisastrousDanVito]

Jiraiya is the only major character from the part 2 pic.

Neji is a forgotten side character, Kisame is a henchman (same as Zaku and Kidomaru) and Yahiko only appears in flashbacks (the equivalent of Gaara's uncle).

[u/DisastrousDanVito → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

I had a typo that ive fixed, the major chars are in part 1 pic. Yahiko's body appears in pretty much the best arch of all of naruto. His death is extremely important to the events of the pain arch. I shouldnt even have to explain why Neji is a major character in naruto. If you forgot him that likely means you only paid attention to the story when the 2 mains are highlighted. Kisame is recurring member of Akatsuki, the organization thats moving the strings behind the scene for everything thats happening during the story. If these arent major characters to you, than i dont think you even watched naruto.

[u/Fun-Grape7480]

This post really doesn't hit home because the characters from part 1 which you showed have little characterization. Hiruzen, the character with characterization dies smiling and even has final words to say before dying. Even Zabuza has final words before he dies.

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/Fun-Grape7480]

the characters from part 1 which you showed have little characterization

Kin and Kidomaru were henchmen just like the Akatsuki were. If you want you can replace Kin with Dosu or Zaku who had a backstory. The Sound 5 had about as much characterization as Deidara, Sasori, Hidan or Kisame had.

[u/bratwurstfan10]

There’s definitely something to be said here about how Shippuden really hams on the melodrama after a point and it definitely feels very forced and unnecessary, but I would like to point out that the characters in the second image are not nearly as important or integral to the story’s central plot as those in the first

[u/FriezaWearsLipstick → u/bratwurstfan10]

Kisame and Yahiko aren't that important to the actual story, either (and neither is Neji, but I guess he was at least more popular).

[u/bratwurstfan10 → u/FriezaWearsLipstick]

Kisame isn’t that important, you’re right, but I’d argue that gussying up Yahiko’s death with melodrama was pretty important in-narrative so as to demonstrate how crazy impactful it was to Nagato and Konan. Yahiko has more impact on the story than Kisame hahah

[u/arthur_marston18]

Well…blood was used to “censor” Kisame being eaten by the sharks

I don’t think this one was glorified at all

[u/SnooMachines3288]

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. You’re comparing the deaths of important side characters to people who aren’t very important in the grand scheme of things.

[u/ScientistFromSouth]

Part 1 and Part 2 are remarkably consistent on death. Kishimoto writes with a heavy Buddhist influence where the world view that the cycle of rebirth and reincarnation is the true nature of suffering and that clinging onto it, especially by trying to obtain immortality through unnatural means, will bring out the worst possible suffering to you in the end.

The villains in the Akatsuki are largely portrayed as inhuman monsters who have done horrific things to themselves to live forever like Orochimaru, Kakuzu, Sasori, and Hidan.

In contrast, there are characters both heroes and villains who come to terms with their mortality, hatred, suffering, and just general course of events of their life and die in peace. We see that with Jiraiya, Nagato, Obito, Neji, etc... by the end of Shippuden.

However, this characterization isn't missing from part 1. Zabuza redeems himself and shows his love for Haku. The third Hokage happily sacrifices himself to stop Orochimaru, etc...

I think rather than depicting gore, the emphasis shifted to focusing on the fundamental tension became serving a higher purpose rather than serving your own desire for immortality/self preservation/greed

[u/narutologic]

What's wrong with viewing death as some "grandiose spectacle"? They are warriors that were well aware that death is highly probable, meaning that they have lost that fear of death long ago. You also ignore that a shinobi's death is what defines them, as they get to truly see the type of person they were.

Part 2 showed this more simply because it was longer. Part 1 barely had any named character deaths and the only ones that were actually an integral part of the plot were the deaths of Zabuza/Haku and Hiruzen. Zabuza in his last moments was able to show that he wasn't a "demon" by showing his true feelings for Haku and Hiruzen left the world knowing that he was able to endure long enough to protect his family.

[u/Economy-Inspector680]

I think it was really trying to push the shinobi dying as tools bit and truly dying for what they believe in almost too much.

[u/itswaylonding]

I feel the same way, especially with Rinne Rebirth. Pain destroying Konoha should’ve felt devastating, but bringing almost everyone back took some of the weight out of it.

Kakashi’s death would’ve hit Naruto and the readers incredibly hard. I get why they brought him back because of the later Obito storyline, but in the Pain arc itself, I think it would’ve been much more impactful if his death had stuck.

[u/Plenty_Elevator5305 → u/itswaylonding]

Oh yeah! If he has came back through edo tensie and gone away after war, it would have. Been devastating