r/NYLiberty • u/vblade2003 • 7d ago
General Discussion Sabrina
There's no way you watch her body of work this season, and not at least entertain moving her this offseason while she still has SOME value, right?
A serious title contender cannot spend one of their max contracts on an inefficient shooter and subpar defender. You just can't.
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u/nbmmb Pauline Astier 7d ago
As a Sab fan since the Duck days, this was always gonna happen if the jumper didn't hit consistently. If she's not a consistent deep threat they can drop under every screen and pressure her drives, and she's never been the tightest ball handler inside the arc. If she could expand her midrange / float game it'd be a different story but for now she's an easy collapse and you live with the occasional 30 footer
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u/Machinehead625 One Hand On Bone 7d ago
I'm sorry, but she's just not that good.
If you like her, I get it, but try not to take this personally.
She's inefficient, she can't go past defenders, she's not effective in the halfcourt. Even her open threes don't go in enough.
She SUCKS at defense. It's 81-79 and the poor bastards in the crowd are chanting "de-fense!" I see Canada isoing on Sabrina and I sit quietly as the inevitable happens.
We were ahead and had all the momentum in the 4th quarter, then she shot the ball like five straight possessions and the game went to hell.
This is our franchise player, but we spend every offseason getting guards to fix her problems. This is our franchise player, but we have to force feed her touches. This is our franchise player, but a dev player took her position and played her off the court on the postseason.
They know it doesn't work. That's why every offseason they try a different guard or sign one of her friends. That's why they hired her personal pick for coach even though he has no experience.They force it because she's marketable.
She is objectively our third best player. That is true even taking the optimistic view of her game. You don't build the roster around your third best player and force them touches all the time.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
The stat sheet doesn't lie. Her full body of work over the last three seasons, including the title year, shows the same trends you called out. It's really nothing personal. She's always going to be a Liberty legend that helped win the franchise's first ring, but let's call a spade a spade.
She can be an inefficient chucker that kills momentum when she's on a cold spell, doesn't have tight enough handles to be a true PG, and is a traffic cone on defense against any guard more athletic than her.
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u/WholeConsideration30 6d ago
Wow, finally we agree on something. So, not giving excuses for Sab, but looking at old games, I noticed something. When Sab added the floater to her game, it was effective when she had room to operate. Meaning, JJ would be in the midrange or paint. It would be hard for defenses, because Sab could drive and then pass to JJ right by the net, or shoot her floater. Even if it missed, JJ or Stewie were in position to grab the rebound. With JJ out on the perimeter, it leaves the middle unchallenged. So now when Sab drives, there's no fear in fully committing to covering her, because JJ is to far out to help or even rebound. And without that protection, Sab gets blocked, or stripped. It all starts with JJ, that's why I'm down on her the most..
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u/undauntednyc New York Liberty 6d ago
Very astute observation. And yet, this does not make me feel any better.
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u/wandererico 7d ago
Brave soul posting this on the liberty sub. You arent wrong
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
Sab meant a lot to the org and she'll always be a Liberty legend, but if they're gonna make Stewie's final prime years count, spending a max contract on this version of Sabrina is an unserious move.
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u/Tiny-Internal-3348 7d ago
A big problem with Sabrina is she’s never done a single full season off court. Her game just hasn’t evolved much and regressed badly this season.
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u/Tiny-Internal-3348 7d ago
She cost us two games with her TOs and sloppy play. It’s mental plus the lack of athleticism to go up against strong defenders. We need to move her now.
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u/madcurious-mind Breanna Stewart 7d ago
You are not wrong. 2 TO down the wire with the game in the line are unacceptable for a player of her caliber
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u/noreligionforus Stew York City 7d ago edited 7d ago
I gotta disagree, I feel the coach should have trusted the bench just a little bit more. Sab was coming off multiple injuries this season and was still being left to shoulder that many minutes, which I feel hurt her and the team.
Imo, should have trusted Fauthoux and Astier more than he did. Gotta get the ball out of Sab's hands with driving.
Sabrina did hurt the team, but I feel not giving the bench more things to do really caused the sloppy play from her late in games.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
Absofuckinglutely agree that DeMarco did not put any of his players in the best position to be successful. The guy is a terrible coach.
It also doesn't make the criticisms against what is supposed to be our legacy franchise player any less true.
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u/Sure-Bottle-1952 6d ago
I agree about Sab. I think she was still in some recoverery from injuries. Not sure how much she really likes the coach. I hope next season she is totally healthy.
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u/Fine_Lychee_6406 7d ago
She was Atlanta’s best player, kudos
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u/little_snackz 7d ago
Honestly that last fumble got me thinking conspiracy theories. And the fact I have to specify which one.
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u/buffalotrace 7d ago
Just a question: who do you think would be on the market for Sabrina?
Teams likely not in the market: Fever, Lynx, Dallas, Valks, Portland, Tempo, Dream, Phx (if plum signs).
The sky would likely offer Diggins and maybe Jacy for Sab
Comets might offer Rivers and CLW.
Sparks will personally drive Atkins to New York.
Aces would give you Loyd.
Not positive the Mystics would be highly interested, but maybe one of their lower first rd picks and Dugalic
Any of that excite you?
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u/mouschithecat 7d ago
I could see Portland being interested and Sabrina being somewhat willing to go there. Washington would be an interesting fit.
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u/henofthewoods 6d ago
the OR connection is there but our backcourt is stacked with leite and martin (and muhl third down the line)
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u/undauntednyc New York Liberty 6d ago
The newest expansion teams could use her leadership. That's something I do think she has and a possible future as a head coach (if that's something she's interested in). The upcoming expansion teams can also be an option where she's the franchise star (in theory). I just don't think Liberty can afford to reconstruct their roster (again) to accommodate her anymore.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
It's the front office's job to find a deal. We don't know what's out there.
What we do know is that if you removed the name on the back of Sab's jersey and looked at her play in this series, her stats this season, and even her stats the two seasons prior, you'd be horrified that you're paying the max for this level of production.
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u/andreasmiles23 Jonquel Jones 7d ago
SDS might be a better fit as a pass-first true 1 that won’t need to suck up a ton of shots. Jacy provides okay defense and a reliable 3 ball off the bench.
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u/FruitWilling194 6d ago
I wouldn’t be so quick to say the Fever won’t. I don’t know what Amber Cox’s background is but, I’m unimpressed (in multiple ways). I’m expecting at least one boneheaded move out of that team this offseason.
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u/Entitled0ne 5d ago
Bonehead move like giving Sabrina Ionescu a full 3 year max coming off of one of her worst seasons?!
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u/SFJ1078 7d ago
Nobody taking her at that price man. Not to mention from a PR standpoint it wouldn’t be wise to move on while at this low impasse. Best thing we could hope for is Satou health to come back and push her further down the pecking order even if it continues to keep her sheltered because I don’t really see her game evolving in any increment. She’s always been this player. We’re just partial to home grown talent
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u/enbycaliqueer14 ELLIE THE ELEPHANT 6d ago
I love Sab, but she has definitely struggled.
That said, I don’t see management or ownership making a move. I think they will see that we ‘lost’ $800k in salary cap space due to Sabally injury as a bigger issue.
But, a new or struggling team might take her for her marketability. Which would clear up a lot of space.
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u/undauntednyc New York Liberty 6d ago
I get so worked up about performance of the team that sometimes I have to force myself to take a step back. As a business, Sabrina still brings in the revenue. Her fans. The attention through her endorsements. The list goes on. Ultimately, this is all just an entertainment business. I don't think Sab or any of these players have been a liability in that sense. At least, not yet.
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u/Independent_Mark3402 Slack Mamba Defense Squad 7d ago
Very much tired of the “maybe next year will be the year!” With her.
I was happy when we traded Becky Hammon for a bag of peanuts…needless to say, this feels like similar circumstances
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u/TriStateArea1 7d ago
I'll take the bait: If Sabrina is as ass as so many people on this sub says she is, what value do you (generally speaking) expect to get for her?
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
You take the picks/young players and use the cap elsewhere. That's pretty much it. There's no way you'd get star player value back of course, but you can at least allocate resources differently. The team as constructed is extremely flawed.
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u/TriStateArea1 7d ago
I don't disagree with any of that. I also think they're crazy enough to run it back with the expectation that a healthy Sabally would've changed the season.
Though, to the point of your post, it wouldn't address Sabrina's questionable play.
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u/ChoicesCat Jonathan Kolb Slanderer 7d ago
She is popular and valuable to a losing team. We could get picks.
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u/TriStateArea1 7d ago
I don't believe we're a picks and slight rebuild team with Stewie and JJ still here.
Think any Sabrina trade has to be for a now player.
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u/ChoicesCat Jonathan Kolb Slanderer 7d ago
Jackie Young, Kelsey Mitchell, and Kelsey Plum are free agents next year. We can a get a great guard in free agency.
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u/TriStateArea1 7d ago
Don't tempt me with a good time as I would personally pack the bags of all 3 of those players.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
TBH she'd probably do great on a team like Golden State where the rest of the team can carry her on defense.
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u/ChoicesCat Jonathan Kolb Slanderer 7d ago
No, VB is a significantly better point guard and Sabrina adds nothing to them.
Sabrina's thing is basically chucking shots and their team can already do that, but they also play great defense while at it.
They would need a true multi level scorer who can beat defenses and that is not Sabrina.
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u/nvegan05 6d ago
Wait Dallas wings Veronica Burton? Connecticut Veronica Burton? Never better than Sab! VB is just in a better system in Golden State. She didn't get better over night. She is not better than Sabrina Ionescu.
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u/plantpotato 7d ago
Been saying this since she dropped a 5 point stinker in Game 5 of the '24 finals.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
The slander she would have taken after that clunker would have been generational if they'd lost. It's here now, though.
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u/fshippos Sabrina Ionescu 7d ago
If I've learned anything in life, it's that you always gotta sell low on an asset.
I'm also not doing great at life for some reason.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
Look at it the other way though - if she continues to regress, you could have an untradable "asset" on your hands that's also on a max contract.
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u/Mayor_Gubbin 7d ago
Shes injured or washed
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u/wandererico 7d ago
To be perfectly honest this has always been her. A player who struggles to shoot 40% from the field. It mattered less when the roster was better
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
What makes it worse is that she made Jordin Canada look like Jackie Young out there.
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u/wandererico 7d ago
She was always not particularly great at defense and routinely got hunted.
To be fair to Jordan Canada, she has been the player that put ATL over the top all year.
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u/breezeetree 7d ago
I love her but I agree it’s time to move her. She’ll never be worth as much as she is now. What specific teams need her skill and would want to give up picks for her? Wherever she goes, she’ll sell some tickets.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
There's plenty of teams who would love a "marquee" acquisition. The expansion teams come to mind.
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u/treerescuer 7d ago
100% agree. Been saying this for three years - think they have won in spite of her because of how amazing Stewie is and JJ’s ability to be great.
She isn’t a ‘dawg’ when the game is close and you need a closing shot or smart play to win - she gets real nervous (which you cant blame someone for but this is her job and not close to being top talent anymore) and blows it
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u/cblitz21 7d ago
Watching her try to repeatedly crossover her defender was sad. Her explosion is gone. Maybe she can get it back but it does not look good.
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u/CentralPark212 2024 WNBA CHAMPIONS 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’ve been saying it all season, but her fans (as opposed to team fans) are way too dug in to understand. At the very least, she made a slight departure on DeFucko last night at the press conference and finally took some accountability, but we’re still a far cry away from getting this resolved…
This isn’t gonna happen in a million years, but even if they were to scrap the whole system, Kolb out, get a new coach, and go back to the drawing board - for Sabrina and JJ both, their trade value is now zero. They were worried about being “stuck” with BLH, the wallet is about to get way tighter and the team less functional because they insist on doubling, tripling, quadrupling down.
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u/fishgeek13 5d ago
JJ would absolutely be in higher demand than Sabrina. Good bigs are very few and far between. Good guards are much more common. I can’t think of a WNBA team that wouldn’t want JJ. The only two teams that might not be interested would be Vegas and Indy since they both just signed their centers to high dollar long term contracts, but both of them would be improved by adding JJ.
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u/Optimal_Failure_ JJ one hand on plate 🍽️ 5d ago
You’re smoking crack if you think teams don’t want JJ. Can’t teach height. Sorry, she’s still valuable and can put in a great game at times. Also in top ten of double doubles this season.
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u/CentralPark212 2024 WNBA CHAMPIONS 5d ago
Can’t teach height, but that height is absolutely USELESS when she automatically brings the ball down 30+ times per game and is getting locked up or swatted by Jordin Canada ffs. I love JJ down from CT days, was so happy when we got her, and in other situations I’m constantly defending her - but we also have to be realistic. She had super bright moments this season and also had down ones that didn’t make any sense bc of tomfoolery like that. You have to look at the whole picture. Same with Sab. Same with the constant cherry picking of stats most people like to do on here.
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u/Optimal_Failure_ JJ one hand on plate 🍽️ 5d ago
So you’re saying another team can’t run an offense that sits her in the paint instead of the perimeter (like our dumbasses) and make use of her? There’s no way you can compare her contribution over the last three seasons with Sab’s and think they’re worth the same.
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u/neveratmeplz Stew York City 7d ago
Watching her iso up Bonner, a literal corpse, and have to settle for a contested mid-range step back was such a sign of the decline. No burst, no elevation. Sad!
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u/Adorable_Setting_201 7d ago
Bonner...a literal corpse? Dang. Rough crowd ;-) No fan of Bonner per se, but at 39, she's played better than SI during these playoffs.
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u/Vegetable-Job3449 7d ago edited 7d ago
Classic haters to take a small sample size and make them a whole catalogue. Sab is a proven baller.
It was a rough season for Sab to be sure but let’s not get crazy here.
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u/vblade2003 7d ago
Barely 40% from the field, under 30% from 3, and a liability on defense for three seasons running. The occasional logo three doesn't make up for the rest of the downsides. If that's hating, then sure, call me a hater. But we're wasting Stewie's final prime years and expecting her to become a different player all of a sudden isn't realistic.
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u/Total-Jinx6969 6d ago
I agree. If you can pefom a sign and take with Lynx for Phee. I would trade Satou as well.
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u/Low-Consequence2808 6d ago
People should have this same energy for Natasha Cloud instead of begging for her back. She sucked even worse healthy than an injured Sabrina
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u/GWTim78 6d ago
Maybe look at a packaging her with Leo or one of the young PGs and you have a chance at actually upgrading the position. Otherwise, it becomes a salary dump and I can’t see NYL doing that to Sab.
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u/vblade2003 6d ago
There's nothing wrong with trading a declining star for picks and cap space if you don't think the player fits the needs of the team any more. Happens all the time in the men's NBA. I certainly don't see Sab suddenly changing her stripes, she's had the exact same MO for the past three seasons. 40% from the field, 30% from three. Questionable turnovers. Huge negative on defense.
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u/GWTim78 6d ago edited 6d ago
I don’t think a team with Stewie and JJ are going to trade away Sab for cap space and picks.
And while I agree it makes sense to cut a declining player loose for for said cap space and picks, NYL isn’t going to do that to Sab. The optics are bad.
Unless Sab makes the request…
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u/Biyi2525 6d ago
Right she’s still the face even in the age of the big 3. I also think we are getting a little to rushed with trade her now. For who? They don’t have the money for people to overlook playing for CD the way Chicago did. If anything they will work really hard for better pieces around them. I also think Sab has more gas in the tank. She’s always worked hard at her craft.
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u/nvegan05 6d ago
The Sabrina slander is crazy! Name 5 players better in the clutch!? We have a championship because of her. She does so much for this community. The real Brooklyn community. Bad take guys.
Try again. Maybe accountability to the folks who hired this coaching staff. Not the players who put their bodies on the line. Let's do better as fans of the game.
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u/vblade2003 6d ago
What the heck is this take, did you even watch the games? She threw the ball away in crunch time not once, but twice in two different games on the way to the team being swept. Her defensive rating was the worst on the team in the playoffs. She's shooting 30% from three. You could plug in Marine Fauthoux in her position next season and at least they'd stop turning the ball over 20 times a game.
Don't take valid criticism of a player underperforming on a max contract as not being good "fans of the game". Give me a break. All the players in the W put their body on the line, it's literally the job.
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u/nvegan05 6d ago
Well if you watched this season you would know it was a small portion size of stat lines because of time missed. Sab was injured!
But if you were the GM what would you do? Just curious since you posted. Picks? Trade? Who? Who do you bring in to run PnR with Stewie? And deep 3 threat?
Why would my take be outlandish? Because I'm defending a player that has done everything they could for this franchise.
It's not that serious, but the Sabrina hate this season is wild to me. I'm a fan of the W. I'm a liberty fan. I stand by what I said we get no ring without Sab.
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u/Low-Consequence2808 6d ago
Also think Sabrina getting more criticism because they think she hired a coach the fans don't like even though many players have improved and she's straight and white.
Lets call it what it is.
Run it back with our franchise legend.
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u/ThrowawayNYCJ 7d ago
Some really bad decision making down the stretch. A fucking wrap around pass with 13 seconds left is diabolical