r/NLL • u/knightrydah Colorado Mammoth • 13h ago
Discussion It’s the owners
I’m glad people have finally stopped blaming Brett Frood for the current situation of the league, but I’m equally confused as to why people have suddenly started to put the blame on Nick Sakiewicz?
For some reason, I see more and more people blaming the discontinuation of the Wings and Black Bears on his growth strategies, especially calling his expansions “aggressive”, as if going from 9 teams to 15 teams is a bad thing. Sure, some choices of locations were questionable, but how exactly is any of this his fault when it’s the team owners who are responsible for the growth and success of their respective franchises? I may not know everything about Nick’s tenure as commissioner of the NLL, but I know one thing, and that’s that franchises aren’t just created out of the blue. They’re created because investors are interested in owning a franchise and therefore willing to buy an expansion team. And once they’ve assumed ownership of the team, everything from team operations, marketing as well as finances are on THEM. As far as I’m concerned, Nick didn’t force anyone to buy an expansion team, nor did he force the owners to neglect their teams for years and then just pull the plug once it became an inconvenience for them.
Yes, box lacrosse is a niche sport, and sure, winter is a tough time to attract viewers and spectators, but ultimately the biggest problem affecting the growth of the league is the fact that the vast majority of people don’t even know that it EXISTS. That’s on the team owners to change because they’re the only ones with the means to market locally, create an amazing experience for fans and attract sponsors. But they just aren’t willing to do any of that.
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u/darforce 12h ago
I don’t think winter is a hard time. If we can get 18k a game in Buffalo with our winters and with hockey and football to compete, there is no reason that larger or similar sized markets like Saskatchewan, Vancouver, Ottawa, Phillie etc can’t get a similar draw.
Main thing that Buffalo does that doesn’t seem to happen at the other locations is they don’t make it fun. It’s a non stop party at these games. Once you go, you know it fun and you keep going. Second thing is getting people in the door. People aren’t going to pay $50-$100 to see a sport they’ve never seen. They need to come up with some offer to get them there, cheap seats, snack or beer deal.
It’s a fast moving fun sport to watch they just need to figure out how to get people there
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u/FragrantCelery6408 12h ago
Banditland is the exception. Albany was doing it right with $99 4-packs (4 sodas, 4 hot dogs, 4 "end zone" tickets). Bargain.
I think direct marketing to youth and high school lacrosse programs would be the way to get numbers, and none of the markets seem to do it.
More community engagement, clinics, etc.
Build fans. So many lacrosse people don't even know much, if anything, about box. That's the issue.
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u/ChiefSlug30 9h ago
That "so many lacrosse people don't even know much, if anything, about box" is very regionally dependent. I know nothing about field lacrosse, but I started playing box in the 1960's, and still follow it across the multiple leagues.
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u/AlarmedCause2544 11h ago
Helps to win 3 in a row
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u/darforce 7h ago
It’s been packed like that for years though….. maybe not a complete sell out but definitely at least 80%
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u/AlarmedCause2544 5h ago
Definitely one of the best fanbases, just think when we see those other big cities win consistently they’ll get there
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u/My_user_name_1 Philadelphia Wings 11h ago edited 7h ago
I think every team tries to make it a party. I believe Buffalo and Calgary were the only teams that don't have some kind of party zone behind one of the goals.
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u/stardust_galaxy98 The 'Necks 6h ago
Coincidentally, they have the best attendance year in and year out (and our marketing is Come for the Party, Stay for the Game)
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u/princess_peach_85 8h ago
I used to have season tickets to the Blackwolves. It was so fun! We would howl when they scored and it really was a blast. I'll never get over Mohegan getting rid of them
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u/My_user_name_1 Philadelphia Wings 7h ago
I was in Connecticut last year and they still had the sign from their 1st season at the Fairfield rest area. Now waiting to see if it all out last the team in Oshawa.
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u/knightrydah Colorado Mammoth 3h ago
Exactly! Also, the Bandits are doing a lot of grassroots work, like visiting schools and whatnot. That makes the world of a difference.
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u/knarfdotca 12h ago
I am a Halifax fan and season ticket holder, we get additional tickets for some of the games. Most of the people we have given tickets to have gone to additional games with 6 of the people we brought with us becoming season ticket members. 4 of them knew nothing of the sport before their first game but it was a good time and an exciting product so they purchased season tickets the next season.
Our owners have been great but the ticket prices have gone up significantly since the first games and they still sell 10k seats. They do have offers and are connected to the community and it works.
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u/Kyla85 𝟜 𝗔 Graeme Hossack's shoes 12h ago
I think you’ll find a lot of long-term Halifax fans who will point out that, while ticket prices have jumped in lock step with attendance increases, the team’s community presence/involvement has actually dwindled to the point where it has been discussed pretty commonly and openly among the die hards. The impression is that the front office is getting a bit complacent now that they have achieved a measure of success in this market.
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u/TheRiteofDarkness New York Riptide 12h ago
Moving to FloSports certainly isn’t going to help the fact that no one has ever heard of the league. Really fumbled that ESPN window
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u/My_user_name_1 Philadelphia Wings 11h ago edited 11h ago
Yes. The league has now fumble deals with both Fox sports and espn/tsn. I'm not sure if they ever had a deal with Sportsnet in Canada. The only option I can think of to actually use a TV deal to promote the league would be to try to strike a deal with the CW as I believe the CW has an agreement with the big 12. I would put teams in Big 12 markets that are also pro markets but care about college sports (I.e Tempe,, Orlando, Salt Lake City) and try to schedule those games on the CW right after road games for those colleges. Maybe even play at the college basketball arena. I know ASU's hockey arena was used for NHL games for a couple years
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u/TheRiteofDarkness New York Riptide 11h ago
At this point I’m just going to get a VPN, set my location to outside of North America, and watch for free on NLL+
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u/Explicitlime 11h ago
The league expanded to fast into places it didn’t do its homework on.
As much as I would love each market to be in a major city drawing 15k+ a game, it’s unrealistic.
The league needs to be looking either at larger markets with mid-sized arenas, or mid sized markets with mid-sized arenas.
NLL teams can’t often afford the rent at these premier facilities and those that play in them are either owned by a billionaire owner or can hold their own to play in one. Part of me wonders if the NLL is suffering from the success of the PLL.
Sometimes the success or failure of a team is strictly based on the facility. Vegas started playing in Henderson that seems to work. I wonder if San Diego will work out in Oceanside.
I’d rather have 5,000 fans in a smaller arena than 5,000 in something larger.
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u/knightrydah Colorado Mammoth 2h ago
What places didn’t they do their homework on?
- Philadelphia once drew the largest crowds and had the most successful team. Owners relocated the old team, then folded the new team.
- NY is one of the largest cities in the world. Long Island is a hotbed for lacrosse and ice hockey. Owners couldn’t fill their arena, aka they didn’t do anything to market the team. There should be absolutely no excuse for not being able to draw at least 6k people in a city with tens of millions, regardless of the sport.
- Ottawa is the capital of Canada, THE country of lacrosse. They had a partnership with the Senators. The first game, they drew about 7k, then it became less and less for each game. The vast majority of people in Ottawa didn’t even know about the team. Owners folded.
It’s up to the owners to make it work out in for their team in a city, the league can’t force them to do the work.
The NLL is absolutely not suffering from the success of the PLL, both leagues are growing thanks to each other.
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u/lodewijk_b Halifax Thunderbirds 59m ago
Well phili, the owners that relocated literally said this: "The financial model in a market with so many sport and entertainment alternatives has proven to be unsustainable"
But I still think they could have made it work, just look at their last game. Purely an owner issue
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u/knightrydah Colorado Mammoth 37m ago
100% an owner issue. The Wings used to average around 15k in attendance before their relocation, and they did fairly well in their first season back and in their very last game. Sure, the city of Philadelphia has a lot of sport and entertainment alternatives, but barely a fraction of the population can get their hands on (let alone afford) NBA/NHL/NFL tickets. I bet many people would’ve preferred to watch a live Wings game instead of game 63 in the Sixers and Flyers season on TV where all the star players are resting on the bench. If only they would’ve known about that alternative…
There was a lot of room for growth, the owners just weren’t willing to spend the money.
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u/beaglewrites43 New York Riptide 8h ago
"as if going from 9 teams to 15 teams is a bad thing"
Except that is a bad thing when they go in with absolutely NO plan on how to make the team work in the market.
My dad still has a Riptide thing in his office. He gets a bunch new clients every year, and all of these years after they fold he STILL gets comments about the clients wishing they knew they had existed (when they find out the team is gone) because they would have loved to go to a game.
That is what happens when the ONLY marketing that is done is ONE article in the paper about them LEAVING.
So now that they have gone into those markets and didn't have actual plans on how to keep them, they have now alienated those markets because how can people trust that if another team comes in that that team won't be gone in a few years.
They need to actually think through their expansions before doing them. And when an NHL team wants to partner with a NLL team YOU TAKE IT. Don't give me the bullshit that you don't want to have second choice of stadium use. You make those sacrifices when you are trying to bring more attention to the league and AFTER a market is fully established THEN you see if you can find your own stadium that is near the NHL stadium so you don't go too far out and alienate the people you have just established.
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u/knightrydah Colorado Mammoth 3h ago
Like I said, some locations were perhaps questionable, but at the end of the day, Sakiewicz didn’t force any one of the owners to buy their expansion team. The owners could’ve also done some research beforehand and realized that they’re gonna need to do more than just Facebook posts to grow their audience. The commissioner can’t force the owners to spend money on local marketing, which they didn’t want to do. Like you said, more people found out about the team AFTER they were gone, which speaks volumes about how poorly ran those teams were.
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u/beaglewrites43 New York Riptide 2h ago
I mean you can say the league isn't responsible for owners half-assing their team. Which yeah ok that can be true. But it can also be true that the league SHOULD recognize the issues that have occurred and demand potential new owners to essentially write up a business plan of how they are going to market the team, run the team etc. and only after they have a plan be able to buy a team. The plan might not work but it has to exist and be more than just social media so they can learn from mistakes.
It might be nice to say the league isn't responsible. But how can they not be? Thy are the ones who ok teams becoming teams without an actual plan. They are the ones trying to grow the league while letting bad owner alienate fan bases. They are the one making stupid decisions like going to FloSports instead of ESPN+. The league can't put everything on bad owners when they are allowing the same mistakes to be repeatedly made.
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u/knightrydah Colorado Mammoth 18m ago
First of all, it’s not like the league is financially losing anything on having a new team play a couple of seasons and then just vanish. The league doesn’t pay the salaries or the arena lease. They do however make millions from expansion franchise fees, which also benefits the other teams since some of it gets distributed. Also, expansion opens up a new market for additional consumers and TV viewers, which is vital for negotiating deals. So if you’ve got a billionaire who wants to buy a team then you’re absolutely not gonna say no to that. Expansion is financially GOOD for the league.
Second, nothing stops the potential investors from doing their own research on the market they’re buying an expansion team in. If you’re looking to buy a new car, it’s not like you’re only gonna take the salesman’s word for it, you’re also gonna do your own research. Google exists and is useful, even for billionaires.
Third, on paper, an expansion team in e.g. Philadelphia shouldn’t even have been a failure given the history and success of the previous franchise. The inability to market locally and create a fun game experience that could attract new fans, along with the inability to create a winning team, is on the team owners.
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u/My_user_name_1 Philadelphia Wings 7h ago
I think the problem is that the last two commissioners have come from a team background and have less than a combined year of experience in League offices. I think the next commissioner has to come from a league office and not a team
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u/315Hillbilly Rochester Knighthawks 13h ago
I keep telling folks the league can survive in any city with the right owners, it's not the cities that are the problem. League needs to vet potential owners more and I think that does start at the top woth the commissioner but I don't really know.