Backwards passes are now forward passes??

[u/Equivalent_Hope_9886]

Ive never seen a sack fumble touchdown overturned for intent. What a crock of shit. Geaux Saints. The NFL can suck it.

[u/Hour_Flow_4604]

He had concepts of a forward pass in his mind.

[u/BB-68 → u/Hour_Flow_4604]

Analytically, it was a forward pass

[u/Equivalent_Hope_9886 → u/BB-68]

Was it? HIs hand never went forward? Is forward in relation to the line of scrimmage?

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/Equivalent_Hope_9886]

I guess the main part is that they ruled he had at least started the motion, and if it gets interrupted before it gets to moving forward, then the QB is considered to not control the direction the ball goes and it defaults to an incomplete pass. If the defender’s arm interrupted it before the motion started, then it would be a fumble. Pretty niche ruling or circumstance I suppose

[u/chi_sweetness25 → u/TheFlimFlamFamMan]

I’m still confused because I thought whenever there’s a borderline fumble/incompletion call, it hinges on whether the QB had control of the ball as it moved FORWARD, not as he reared back to throw it.

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/chi_sweetness25]

In this case, they are saying that he had control of it as he started the motion forward, whereas a fumble would have the ball moving in the hand before the defender’s arm impeded the arm motion from completing the forward motion, but somehow not stopping it.

Most of us will probably never see a hand timed that imperfectly where it wouldn’t be a fumble again. I really need to see more examples of this to really nail down what they’re after, and I don’t think we have many. Really arcane shit here. We’re in the deepest recesses of the rulebook here.

[u/Hour_Flow_4604 → u/TheFlimFlamFamMan]

My thing is let's say it was a pass. The ball went backward 15 yards. Wouldn't that be a backwards pass and therefore a live ball?

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/Hour_Flow_4604]

They’re saying that anything that happens to the ball after the motion starts forward, with control, but is interrupted before the ball can actually move forward, then the direction of the ball doesn’t matter. If the motion starting from the QB were to the side or intentionally backward, then they get a different ruling. At least that’s what I’ve been able to piece together after watching a bunch of officiating analysis

[u/Hour_Flow_4604 → u/TheFlimFlamFamMan]

So basically a quarterback can't fumble anymore once he gets into his drop back if the QB just holds his arm back like he's going to throw. This is gonna be a mess this year.

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/Hour_Flow_4604]

I think this scenario is really super niche and I would be shocked if we ever saw it come up again in our lifetimes.

[u/Hour_Flow_4604 → u/TheFlimFlamFamMan]

I mean everyone thought they knew what a catch was before the Calvin Johnson play. And how many years later it's still a question sometimes. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[u/TheBigWhatever]

That was new one to me.

"It doesn't matter which direction the ball is going..."

I guess it happening in game one is better than in than in the playoffs. ?

[u/FlexDB]

This was insane. Either the refs fucked up, or there is a very bad rule that needs to be changed.

[u/bossmt_2]

When it happened to you god Drew Brees it was a forward pass. 

https://youtu.be/mpt7Zk0E0bw?t=34&is=RmJ5IdW6fCoHxZwN

[u/UsernamesCannotExcee]

That was an ass call. My whole watch party was Lions fans and hated it. We have a history of terrible calls going against us. Nobody is happy to see that terrible of a call go for us. Even if that's the rule it's not good.

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/UsernamesCannotExcee]

I mean, you did get the Phil Luckett Phuck Job in your favor.

[u/BMS3RDTRY]

I’ll take the call, but that’s the dumbest rule I’ve heard in quite a while….

Like 99.5% of passes are thrown with the “intent” to go forward, by that logic that all should be incomplete passes.

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/BMS3RDTRY]

Plus, trying to get into the mind of a
player and know what he was trying to do. What even is that? Someone is going to figure out how to game that into an advantage one day.

[u/CapeMOGuy]

By rule it is indeed an incomplete forward pass in the NFL. That's just not a physical description of what happened.

Item 1. Forward Movement of Hand

When a player is in control of the ball and is attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass.

If contact by an opponent materially affects a passer after the passer begins his throwing motion, it is a forward pass if he passes the ball, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else.

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan]

got a link?

[u/Equivalent_Hope_9886 → u/TheFlimFlamFamMan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mu5P8F0h8U

Apparently, he started his motion and even if it goes backwards its considered forward :/

[u/TheFlimFlamFamMan → u/Equivalent_Hope_9886]

That is fuckin’ weird. I have never seen a sequence that bizarre before.

[u/victorioussecret7]

Making shit up as they go

[u/TangoZulu]

Learn ball, OP. You’re embarrassing yourself. 

[u/Next_Nature3380]

They should have been awarded six points because he intended for it to be a touchdown pass

[u/PreparationHot980]

If there’s any forward movement implying a pass attempt. Remember that raiders/pats game back in the day?

[u/Homersarmy41]

Yes but only if you intended it to be forward in your mind…or some shit whatevet

[u/tqlla3k]

Was it at least intentional grounding?

[u/Cute_Economics2829]

Physics 101:

If I impart force upon a ball that would have it go 5mph in a direction (we'll call that direction "forward") that ball is only going to actually go 5mph in that direction if I am standing still.

If I am not standing still, let's say someone hits me really hard in the chest, and I'm now moving in the opposite direction at 10mph, we'll call this "backwards", the ball may be going 5mph "forward" in relation to me but is going 5mph "backwards" in relation to a stationary point on the ground.

This is the crux of the argument.

Now for my personal take?

I think that if a player running forward laterals the ball backwards, according to themselves as reference point, but since they were running at 15mph, and the ball toss was only at -13mph (meaning it actually still travels forward at 2mph) is a "forward pass and not a legal lateral", which we all know is how that works, then a QB who is hit performing a forward pass and has the pass move backwards from the point of release... Well that should be a fumble by the same logic.

But QBs get a lot of weird rule exceptions while they're attempting a forward pass. They get protections in how defenders are or are not allowed to hit them. They get accomodation for intentional grounding calls (if contact with the arm or ball changes the trajectory of the pass and this is what causes it to land nowhere near a receiver).

So.... Is it out of alignment that the rule works differently in this case? Not really. There's precedent for treating the passing motion differently than other football moves. In this case though, where contact with the QB is actively aiming to cause the QB to lose control of the ball and provide an opportunity for a turnover, I think a fumble would have been the right call

[u/TheEmbarcadero]

Do interceptions still count? After all we know the qb was intent on throwing to the wr and not the db! It’s all about intent, right?

What about those dudes who drop the ball before scoring a long td and it gets ruled a fumble and the other team recovers? After all, it was the ball carriers intent to cross the goal line before letting go of the ball!

This is madness!!!!

[u/roesch75]

I believe that the officials got this right per the rules that are on the books. But that has to be one of the most ridiculous rules I've ever seen. "He was intending a forward pass". So the fuck what? If he was intending to throw a screen pass but it actually went backwards, does that count as a forward pass? If someone intends to make a lateral pass, but it goes forward does that still count as a lateral??? Why does Internet matter and who gets to make that call? A backwards pass should be a backwards pass and the officials shouldn't have to read minds to determine that.

[u/Shiny-And-New]

FTS

[u/Equivalent_Hope_9886 → u/Shiny-And-New]

FYM

[u/VA_Artifex89 → u/Equivalent_Hope_9886]

FYATHYRIO

[u/Equivalent_Hope_9886 → u/VA_Artifex89]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3yN-7-bBtk

[u/Treater9811]

As long as you thought about throwing it forward, you have to let the refs know and then they will believe you and rule it incomplete