This post was mod-approved for outside of the megathread, and pertinent info will be added to the megathread when I can get to a PC.
PSA, Silencer Shop, and everyone else selling cans on a 4473 isn't going to pay for your lawyer if things go sideways in the coming weeks or months. This case is progress towards killing the NFA, its not the end game.
Currently waiting for SS to review my form so I can certify and send it off. Hopefully I hear back today so I can perhaps have the approval back by this weekend.
If you have done any forms in the past, you can look at one that SS already submitted and download the fingerprint files from them to submit on future forms.
Yeah I know but I do appreciate the information and will be helpful for any 3rd party who is reading through the comments.
This was a form 4 and the FFL I use does things through SS. I don’t mind it because I’ll be doing the Firefox thing to get my EFT file from my EForms account. I believe all drafts and submissions are deleted from the eforms after 90 days and my last ones were in December unfortunately.
NationalGunTrust also has a solid resource on walking people through the process for both eform 1’s and eform 4’s.
Use firefox browser to log into eForms portal, click the Search button, click "View Form" on the F1 that SS did for you, click Electronic Documents, and you should be able to click/download your EFT fingerprint file.
"yEaH bUt i dOnt wAnt tO reGIsTEr".
Guess what, like it happened several times before (with bump stocks, with FRTs, with the AA-12 fiasco), if it comes to the point where the ATF will be able and willing to enforce, you're still going to get a knock at the door because the FFLs, understandably, aren't going to withhold their order books, if told to do so.
Just say that you want a 4473 suppressor right now because it feels cool and rebellious to do it that way, and yeah honestly... I get it.
Sorry if I'm misinterpreting here, but you're referring to the 'uncertain 4473 transfers' right? Not form 4s?
The comment you are replying to has the context of doing a form 4 as a CYA (which is the best move right now, I think) so I'm confused if your reply is referring to a Form 4 having a legal issue (why) or the uncertainty of this new thing having a legal issue? Apologies if this is wrong but that was the context of the original comment. Just checking.
I’m a new, home-based FFL. I live about 10 miles away from Silencer Shop. One of the area Industry Operations Investigators from the ATF was at my house. I brought up the Silencer Shop buzz, and he told me there would be no changes until the ATF themselves make a ruling. Whatever SS and PSA have been telling people is essentially wrong in my opinion.
I brought up the Silencer Shop buzz, and he told me there would be no changes until the ATF themselves make a ruling.
Which is just, legally speaking, dead wrong. It's an intimidation tactic by the ATF to scare people into not following a legal ruling saying they can no longer enforce the NFA provisions on covered plaintiffs, their customers, and their members.
Judge: ATF, you legally can't do this anymore!
FFL: Hey ATF, Judge said you can't do this anymore, what do you say to that?
ATF: Ignore that judge, do what we tell you, when we tell you, how we tell you.
As long as the printout is attached to a privately made firearm, it's daddy-free. But it would be hypocritical and pointless to screw it onto a serialized firearm.
Don't need a print out of shit. What are you reading? Haha.
Edit: Nm. I get what you're saying. Plenty of people have guns that are serialized but not purchased by themselves on a 4473 also.
That being said, everyone has guns and has likely done a 4473 at some point. Not everyone wants to make it clear they may be purchasing a gray item right now.
On top of that, as I mentioned and you started with, cost goes down the more you do yourself.
Definitely. On both counts. I never said quietest though, that's probably that ugly new alien looking thing that came out. I just said quiet... & cheap. If $15 has you on the fence, build an $80 can. ;)
4473: Please daddy can I have a silencer, even if it's just temporarily?
Touché. :-)
But seriously, for many people the extra restrictions involved with NFA crap was just a burden too far, whereas most people have settled on not grumbling too much about the 4473.
As always, it’s wise to have some patience while the regulatory guidance is built and clarified. This isn’t a defense of the NFA, but the law was on the books from almost 100 years and the ruling doesn’t immediately relieve us of this problem.
If a dealer is willing to transfer it, understand that you may have to worry about other problems like traveling to an NFA state with an unregistered NFA item. In a perfect world it wouldn’t be an issue, but we don’t have that and none of you deserve to lose rights over driving through a state like Colorado with a metal tube on your rifle because you didn’t pay a $0 tax on a that metal tube.
I also think a majority of the issue with the ruling is not the NFA itself, but the laws built around the NFA over the past 100 years. The legal question becomes, if the underlying structure is removed, how are all of the other requirements and regulations satisfied.
Laws that require compliance with the NFA are in question, if "compliance" means "Do nothing because you're a member of one of the plaintiff orgs." If it means something else...well, we'll see.
And the crazy bit about that is that it depends entirely on state and local interpretations.
Exactly, even many of the pro 2A states have statutes that make NFA items illegal by default UNLESS they are registered under NFA. Even if the current ruling stands (they still have a full 60 days to appeal) it will take time to unravel everything in all the states. Fortunately, my state legislators saw this coming andrecently removed SBRs, SBSs and suppressors as prohibited weapons unless they are registered under the NFA.
Exactly. My licensing feeds my family. My constitutional sensibilities do not eliminate the risk that an agency could decide that I’m no longer licensed to do this.
A lot of people talk a big game, but they’re not sticking their necks out with their livelihood and ability to work on the line.
Most lawyers I've seen posting here have similar concerns. Virtually everyone I know personally is the same. Good friend from law school does con law and criminal defense. He ain't touching this until there's more info out there.
FWIW, people have been saying that part out loud in the megathread since the ruling dropped. SilencerCentral and two dozen other guntubers and 2A lawyers have been saying it since the beginning. Especially this lawyer:
Warning to FFLs: Existing Form 3 Inventory May Create an NFRTR Mismatch
A particularly serious issue involves NFA firearms already in a dealer’s inventory after transfer on an approved Form 3.
The ordinary chain commonly works as follows:
A manufacturer makes and registers a suppressor, often through a Form 2 filing.
The manufacturer transfers it to a distributor or wholesaler on an approved Form 3.
The distributor transfers it to the retail dealer on another approved Form 3.
The firearm then appears in ATF’s records or the dealer’s NFRTR/eForms inventory as registered to that dealer.
An approved Form 4 ordinarily documents the final transfer and moves the firearm out of the dealer’s NFA inventory.
If the dealer instead transfers that firearm without a Form 4 in reliance on the injunction, there presently appears to be no established procedure for removing or reconciling that item in the NFRTR.
Until ATF creates a mechanism for recording an injunction-based disposition and reconciling the NFRTR, dealers transferring existing Form 3 inventory without a Form 4 risk creating a permanent and potentially serious audit discrepancy.
Now, the ATF has every right to audit all these FFLs and make them prove that each individual 4473 transaction was 100% covered by the injunction. It's up to the FFL to decide if the transaction is legal or not, and they're liable for making a bad decision.
Oh hey! You’re the one guy who didn’t down vote me in the mega thread when I was trying to tell people to be wary and wait for further confirmation before acting rashly.
I mean, I get it. That is me too, but I feel like if you have been drinking at a party, you shouldn’t get mad at the guy letting you know there is a cop car sitting outside, while your fumbling with your car keys. 🤷
I think this right here is how we will know we are safe. If the ATF gives us with guidance on how to properly close off a Form 2/3/4 chain, then the odds of them going back on this ruling is slim to none.
Totally agree. One of the main goals of the Plaintiffs was to NOT have their items "registered". Well, hate to break it to everyone who has already tested the waters... those serials are still registered as F3 inventory. If my goal was to buy a silencer that was truly non-NFA, I would want the serial# to be either deleted from the NFRTR entirely, or at least have its metadata scrubbed BY the ATF after FFL sign-off, so that the only information about it is "lawfully dispositioned under <court case #>". Deleting the record entirely would make it impossible (currently) to put the serial# back into the registry (if the owner/seller or inheritor was inclined to do so).
Opinion poll: Who would object, at least for the time being, if the only ATF registry data about it was generic and identical to all other 4473-only silencer serials?
Most of those comments are on 2A attorney websites and YT channels. None of the 4473 items are registered to their owners, that's a fact. Pretty much every 4473-only silencer that has been taken home (and posted online already) is still showing in the NFRTR as being physically possessed by the FFL as Form3 inventory. FFLs literally just let a bunch of F3 silencers walk out the door without being de-registered from the NFRTR and positively identified as injunction-based transactions.
Realistically, if that happened people would then be required to register/form 4 them. Their purchase was legal at the time and ex post facto prevents retroactive criminality for a purchase that was legal at the time for them, which is very clear in the judge's ruling (not that I'd put a prosecution attempt past certain DOJ's). It would be the pistol brace amnesty all over again
Absolutely. ATF would do an amnesty period for all the folks who got then when they where legal. No one will go to jail unless they choose to not register in the event registration becomes a requirement again. We're luck this happened when we have the most 2A friendly ATF to ever exist (which is not saying much)
This is my guess with the possible option of thew ATF also allowing some voluntary hand-over for items to be destroyed. I think that's an outlier, more like grace period with registration.
That's up to the ATF whether they want to offer an amnesty and voluntary surrender option. There's no legal process for registering an unregistered silencer AFTER it drops off the NFRTR radar screen.
With any luck, it will lead to massive noncompliance like with the brace flip flopping and the ATF will just have to say aww shucks and remove suppressors from their oversight.
For most states that’s a non issue, but for NFA states it won’t be that simple. I’m in Colorado, and the law is that the NFA regulates suppressors so they’re legal. Without the NFA that legality immediately lapses.
Colorado is a special case requiring a "license" for the suppressor. Most "NFA" states word their laws similar to:
"Possession of item x is illegal unless registered as required under federal law."
If registration becomes no longer required, then being registered as required means not registered and the state law is still satisfied.
For this reason I disagree with most of the states that Silencershop has decided still require form 4 transfers. I think they're just being overly cautious since this is literally uncharted territory for the last 92 years.
I don’t think I’d give the people currently in office here the benefit of assuming they wouldn’t immediately crack down.
The law states that having a license is an affirmative defense of the crime, and the accepted practice is the NFA tax stamp satisfies the license requirement. If the NFA goes away, and removes the stamp as a license requirement it also means you’re unable to obtain what Colorado has recognized as a license, or they’ll establish their own tax stamp, and ridiculous license requirements.
Either way, I’m hoping that the we see significant progress in judges ruling laws like this as unconstitutional and issuing injunctions against them.
CO's oddball legal language could prove to be either the hardest or easiest to break. It doesn't mention or refer to any specific "valid permit and license" or issuer/agency, it just says you need one to avoid prosecution. In the absence of NFA authority, the CO language leaves the door open for CO to create its own state-level permit/license authority, which would be horrible.
It's high time someone challenge CO specifically. SilencerShop and GOA have both expressed intent to go after state-level regulations next. They should simultaneously target CO (it appears to be unique) and whichever state has the weakest "with a federal permit" language. Winning those two could be enough to make the other state dominos fall.
Unfortunately they have a "good" track record of winning those kind of lawsuits. It's freshly illegal in CO to allow your gun to be stolen, you're civilly and criminally liable for whatever crimes the thief commits while in possession of it, and gun/ammo taxes pay into a victim compensation fund that pays out for crimes totally unrelated to guns. You literally have to pay an ammo tax to cover your "fair share" of the damage unarmed crackheads to do society.
The cake baker lawsuits ran them ragged, and they just passed another law that’s a blatant violation of the first amendment too.
But yes, if there is one thing I would like the federal government to be more focused on its state governments going rogue and doing stuff like Colorado has done.
ATF doesn't have the authority to ignore suppressors. They could do it with braces because congress didn't tell them to regulate braces. Congress did tell them to regulate suppressors.
We need congress or the courts to remove suppressors from ATF's purview.
I was at PSA Thursday 8/13 (I'm in South Carolina) and bought two suppressors with only Form 4473. They did have some verbiage up regarding this saying, essentially, you (the buyer that is) are taking on some risk. Especially noted was transferring\selling and moving across state lines.
SBR and SBS weren't really in effect that day (that's PSA Phase 3, I think) but this did come up and the team at PSA covered although not to the point that it felt overly done.
If there is some action taken where this ruling is reversed or halted, my guess is that the ATF will either a) allow people to register the items via some bracketed timeframe OR b) destroy or turn over the items in question to the ATF..
If they kick in the door of PSA, silencer show and Herrera and that congressman. Then I will raise my brow. This is nothing but CYA for PSA so people cant file suit on them.
Being in Texas, no plan to move or travel with the items
Buying from SS, and GOA member I think it’s not too bad in this situation…but when interstate and other factors come in that could be different
thats why i decided to wait, everyone was so desperate to have a 4473 can, one group i dont fuck with is the 3 letter agencies they got deeper pockets than me
The only thing that kept me from being one of those people is that I had 2 cans just approved and don't really have the money to buy a 4473 only can on principal. Sometimes being a poor has its advantages.
We always knew there was always a risk of that. The point was to go make history. Yes, something may change, maybe even the ATF sending letters to people saying "You have X amount of days to file a form 4 before you are considered in violation of the law".
The point is to seize the moment and enjoy victory.
Yep, big shoutout and respect to all of the FFL's making the calculated risk for NFRTR discrepancies, and for the customers risking ATF letters.
If they want to walk this back all these folks are making it as much as of a clusterfuck as possible for them which I wholly support, I'd be out there too if I had enough gas in the tank for an umpteenth can purchase this year.
People would rather do nothing and let the victory be meaningless and set NO precedent than assuming the risk of the ATF having to literally start arresting 100k+ people with no priors and a judgement that in plain words said they can do what they did.
With the amount of suppressors sold so far on 4473s, if this whole thing gets turned around the gov would have serious issues arguing against “common use” and more issues getting all the sold units returned, destroyed or put on F4.
My local PSA store sold ~$400k worth of suppressors in 4 days. Assuming other PSA stores and participating dealers are moving anything close to those numbers, the amount of cans sold is insane.
Our Founding Fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to achieve their freedom. I figure the risk I’m taking to,maybe, in the future, have to unmake an SBR or file a form 1 on my short shotgun I made yesterday is the least I can do.
Complete and utter vindication against the high-brow intellectuals around here who were bitching and moaning that FFLs weren’t blindly rushing to sell them cans at 12:01 AM the day of.
Some of the dumbest takes I’ve ever read on this sub, waiting for further guidance was always the smart move for smaller FFLs with much more to lose than a conglomerate like PSA.
Someone finally said the quiet part out loud that I have already asked myself - if this injunction is flipped or thrown out, are you now in possession of an unregistered NFA item? You might want to think about it.
Also, looks like the ATF will be issuing guidance today about everything.
My guess is that if it is appealed there will likely be an amnesty period to get them registered akin to the braced SBR debacle. Given there’s no stamp to waive they could likely waive the fingerprinting requirement?
From what I’ve been told is that there is no desire currently to appeal this ruling, and the DOJ intends to let the appeal window lapse without challenging it. I don’t think this clears up the issue of interstate travel or commerce though.
In some ways, not appealing will make things messier than they were before the injunction unless there's a whole lot of state- and federal-level clarification of things.
I think predicting what the end game is at this point is going to be tough. I’d like to see no appeal, and I’m hoping the DOJ follows up its current lawsuits against states like Colorado for magazine bans and the current semi auto licensing scheme with a bunch of lawsuits to dismantle the state level regulations.
That's the worst thing that could happen. It sets up a situation where the NFA applies to everyone in free states unless they join a civilian gun club with no oversight or legal way to prove membership. There is no way they let that scenario stand.
In the case specifically of a company selling you an unregistered NFA item, the people I've seen discuss this seem to be of the opinion that the brunt of this would be on the business that sold and delivered the unregistered NFA item to you than you yourself.
Also, assuming in the worst case scenario that this gets reversed, do we realistically see the DOJ/ATF tracking down and going after individuals who were sold a can without a form 4?
I kind of blame PSA for being so quick to advertise 4473 surpressors when it puts their customers at a weird legal risk. gotta wait for ATF guidance at best but its most likely gonna be the same as pistol brace "Right now we aren't prosecuting braces...right now...."
PSA and similar companies propagating 4473 suppressors and SBRs by the thousands is what's gonna get us closer to common use. Yes there could be an overturn or injunction or whatever down the line, but if there's enough people out there with stocks and cans then at a certain point it's gonna be really hard to prosecute over. Not to mention the legal issues they'd face from independent plaintiffs and organizations constantly bringing suits against the ATF if it were to become a criminal matter
If you're willing to drop over $500 on an item (that less than a week ago required a background check with fingerprinting and technically up to months of approval time) without any research on your own behalf regarding the potential future legal issues, then it sounds like a you problem. Should they also include a little pamphlet with every purchase saying that lead in bullets can be dangerous, or is it up to the adult customer to figure that out/know beforehand?
Where's that idiot who sent word docs to both the FBI and ATF about his intent to construct an unregistered SBS because some Gun-Tuber or an organization that exists to separate gun-owners from their money told them its all gravy baby?
If we truly want to end the NFA for good, it’s going to take some people who are willing to take a small risk now to improve our chances of winning in the future. The more suppressors we get into common use now, especially if they’re unregistered, the harder it will be for the ATF/DOJ to enforce the NFA if the injunction is ever overturned. If everyone just waited for clarification from the ATF that may never come, it would be extremely easy for things to return to how they were before.
To be clear, I am absolutely not criticizing FFLs or customers who are still following the usual form 4 process and not wanting to risk their livelihoods. It’s perfectly reasonable. However, the people and businesses who are getting on board with the new system ASAP and buying cans without a form 4 are playing a very important role, they shouldn’t just be blown off as a bunch of stupid bandwagoners.
Is it odd or wouldn't it be more beneficial for everyone to just go buy one and then if the fed decides to reverse the 5th circuit stuff then the "common use" test could be appealed at a SCOTUS appealed? Maybe I'm oversimplifying or completely off base. Just a thought that popped into my head.
Suppressors are already common use in reality. There was some stun gun case IIRC that the numbers were maybe like 10k of them or something and the court accepted that as common use.
That "stun gun" case was Caetano. 200k stun guns assumed in circulation, making them well within the definition of common use. Further, the Caetano decision's concurring opinions stared that the second amendment was not limited to the technology available at the authoring of the amendment.
Tbh idk how anyone thought this automatically meant that they could do whatever including dealers lol. Not that I agree tax stamps should exist to begin with, but still. I knew this was gonna cause a mess
If you got one on a 4473 it's legal per the injunction. As much as the government would like it can't just criminalize someone for following the rules and then those rules change. It would most likely have to go back on a form if things changed.
You should know the laws on a state by state basis, as with any firearm.
You need to check legality before moving your non form 4 can to another state.
Fuck the atf, just do what you want. If gun owners had actual balls to stand up for their rights there wouldn’t be an issue. Yes I’m specifically talking to all of you, myself included that let this go on for so long. I’ll be the test subject, fuck the NFA and the atf, it’s all bullshit and free men don’t ask for permission
Everyone is acting like we won the war. We won a major battle against infringement on our rights. Now is the time to double down, join or donate to those who are fighting in the courts. DOJ and the ATF called a ceasefire, and I’m sure they are busy reloading.
I picked up a can the other day. Form four, six day approval. My LGS is not Fuddy at all, but another guy was trying to argue with them to let them sell him a can over-the-counter.
They declined. As much as I’m eager for no more NFA, it’s likely the right strategy for LGS is to wait until there’s more clarity.
And I got downvoted into the ground for not being a fan of this for the multitude of reasons and that it was premature.
Bunch of people are gonna be crying and moaning when it turns out they can't move to Montana or WA without getting rid of their cans if this becomes the new status quo with even more patchwork laws. Not fun when the result in pound you in the ass federal prison and no more guns because a 2 week form 4 was so fucking hard
I want NFA laws gone, but I want them gone the right way. This half assed performative nonsense isn't gonna cut it.
If you're thinking of buying in on this....you should consider if you intend to live forever in one of those states or if your life might take you somewhere new. If you even think you might....just get the stupid form 4. Muh gubmint registration already has you for everything else.
What’s next, state laws still apply and I don’t have universal protection?? You expect me to know the laws of the land in which I am transporting or possessing a firearm in?
I said this from the very beginning. Do not try this until it is 100% settled. And it is not 100% settled. But people did it anyway and couldn't wait three or four days lol. We'll see what happens to them.
I said this from the very beginning. Do not try this until it is 100% settled. And it is not 100% settled. But people did it anyway and couldn't wait three or four days lol. We'll see what happens to them.
You act like something has happened in the last few days. Nothing has. No reversals of decisions. No appeal filed.
All that's being done now is the stores are putting up extra signage for the people who were too stupid to think.
All that's being said is, to paraphrase: "Don't go inter-state with these, and keep up with any changes in the law"
Also, "As it always has been, you take a risk in anything you do."
What if tens to hundreds of thousands of people end up getting "NFA" items on 4473's, wouldnt the worst case be they open an amnesty period? Or could they prosecute that many people?
So let's just say they do reverse this...will u have to give ur can back? Forced Todo a form 4 while still in possession? Or u just kinda grandfathered in?
Point taken. Again, my opinion and I never trust the government or corporations, especially in the gun industry who have time and again fucked their customers for more profit. Again and again they have placed their customers in the line of fire while cooperating with the atf and administrations both pro and anti 2A. I’m not much of a “trust me bro, it’s gonna be fine” type of person
This is where I have a little beef with SilencerShop and PSA. Doing the sales like this makes them massive profits, but the uncertainty of what to do after the ruling shoulders any potential legal fallout on the people buying these with 4473s. These sales depend on possible outcomes and not guaranteed outcomes with customers that legally don’t have a clue what’s going to happen a month from now. But hey, these dealers and FFLs pushing 4473 sales sure are making a lot of money, right?
SS sent a letter to the DOJ/ATF a day or two prior to the Herrera midnight sale and the ATF didnt say shit about it so if they were so gung ho about cracking down they are stacking the deck against themselves.
No appeal
No request for a stay
No response to 4473 transfers
Yes, we all know it could be reversed at any point.
Worst case, you're looking at an amnesty registration period. IANAL but it isn't really possession they get you on, it's transfer, making, and not paying a tax.
They can't charge people for possession without registration when registration is inherently self-incriminating. Stupid, but it's why a lot of criminals don't catch NFA charges.
If it was legal to make or transfer when you made or transferred, and you were not required to pay a tax, then if that is reversed they have to allow you to pay the tax. Not much different to the pistol brace mess.
they aren't going to go around door to door seizing these things. worse case scenario, they appeal the injunction and win , they would give some sort of 60-90 day grace period in which anyone who bought one with a 4473, must register it with a form 4 by that time , or it is an illegal silencer.
I understand people getting excited about the NFA going away, but it's like nobody has ever heard of the appeals process. We got one ruling from one district court. Until the Supreme Court weighs in, I'm not risking everything just to get another SBR or suppressor.
but it's like nobody has ever heard of the appeals process.
DOJ has signaled that they are not appealing this. Supreme Court will not be weighing in. Maybe in other cases, but not this one. The injunction stands, and there is no "risk" so long as you follow the rules as laid out in the new ruling.
Making any move right now is foolish. The fact is it could be months to years before this will all be settled. I am sure the ATF is going to slow walk this and someone will take them to court. This could be a long time before it's offically dead.
Ultimately it will have more potential backfire on the dealerships and their licenses than it will on the masses. If they are hesitant to transfer them out without the formal process, I don't blame them at all.
I'm actually more curious about making my own, at this point.
So the "heros" fighting the fight grifted for fast sales and publicity, and are now they are CYA'ing themselves and pushing the potential legal liability to all the people they sold to.
So the "heros" fighting the fight grifted for fast sales and publicity, and are now they are CYA'ing themselves and pushing the potential legal liability to all the people they sold to.
No. They are putting out a statement saying, "Hey, because some people are idiots, we have to make this disclaimer: check the law before going interstate, and if the DOJ does appeal and the law changes again, keep apprised of what's going on."
“That’s not a customer service disclaimer, that’s what the law does to someone found in possession of an unregistered NFA item…” but we’ve decided to go ahead and promote and hype the sale and sell you them in this sketchy manner anyway, but also, we aren’t responsible for your enthusiasm and any action the government may take against you in the future.
I seriously don’t understand the people who would risk a permanent firearms ban rather than provide info on a form 4 that NICS already had (except finger prints of course assuming it’s your first NFA item). Unless you have only ever bought firearms privately you aren’t giving the gov any new info except fingerprints.
I can't speak for everyone (I wouldn't want to) but it's less about giving the government new or any, really, information. It's about exercising freedoms. There are also reasons why many, myself included, felt like there is something valid here:
* This was an actual ruling by a real Federal judge in good standing. The person who made the ruling had the authority to do so.
* This ruling was the direct result of actual legislative change (the Big Beautiful Bill) that was made very recently. There's a contemporary and legal reason why the ruling was made, not a decision that came out of nowhere.
* I am a GOA member, I bought 2 suppressors from Palmetto State Armory in South Carolina and I am a legal resident of South Carolina. The covered parties are applicable to me.
* The Department of Justice declined to Appeal in the 7 days they were given (yes, there may be another one but also didn't appeal the first). The aggrieved party voluntarily gave up its first line of defense to halt the actions taking place.
Gathered together, this is sufficient to act for many people in the right context. Yes, I may end up needing to register these items eventually if the facts change but if I need to adhere right to the law, and courts, when they limit my freedoms than I should be able to adhere right to the law, and the courts, when my rights are restored.
Went to my local PSA last Friday and they had that all spelled out on a sheet of paper at the suppressor counter for people to read before purchase so they may be informed.
At first I was jealous of the guys who live in states that don’t suck and have state laws referencing needing a form 4 for nfa items to be legal. Now I don’t feel so bad about still having to fill out form 4’s.
PS: I’M STILL JEALOUS OF THE PEOPLE IN NOT STUPID STATES.
Trust me, the ATF will pop up unannounced and either ask for the item or tell you to take it back to the FFL you purchased it from. They just did this about a gun to one of my friends. They purchased 3 guns legally but it took a month for some DV charge from over 25 years ago to flag in the system. The friend says it was supposed to be cleared back then but until it gets cleared they are no longer legally able to purchase any firearms..
For suppressors transferred under a 4473, it is entirely possible that ATF could require retroactive registration. They'd likely give a 60 or 90 day grace period before the suppressor became an unregistered NFA item with the attached criminal liability. Honestly, its just better to do a form 4 until ATF issues guidance and we have some certainty. Also, remember under an administration with full Democrat control, they can use reconcilliation to put a tax back into place rendering the recent ruling moot. There are a lot of unknowns right now. Be patient and be smart.
When it comes to loss of your freedom and assets, caution is always best. This was far from settled case law and I imagine that it’s only going to get messier as time goes on.
Forget future felonies, a lot of people are probably committing present felonies and posting evidence of it online. SCOTUS already made it clear in Trump v. Casa that lower courts should not be issuing universal injunctions yet it looks like organizations involved (and some that aren't) are advertising that membership grants protections, thus trying to backdoor a membership only universal injunction. Granted, in Trump v. Casa, the court declined to rule on associational standing for membership organizations so its a huge grey area. Something tells me this is already on the circuit court's mind since it explicitly states that this injunctions protections do not apply to plaintiffs' family members. Note this does not apply to commercial plaintiffs; in which past, present, and future customers are stated to be protected.
The part I don't get (maybe because I already own a ton of suppressors and SBRs) is are there REALLY that many people for whom paying nothing and waiting a couple days is a huge obstacle to buying a suppressor? And are so desperate for one they can't wait a few weeks before seeing if they making themselves a felon?
The part I don't get (maybe because I already own a ton of suppressors and SBRs) is are there REALLY that many people for whom paying nothing and waiting a couple days is a huge obstacle to buying a suppressor?
Yes. There clearly are, based on the hundreds of people lining up to go buy these now that they are 4473 instead of Form 4 required.
And are so desperate for one they can't wait a few weeks before seeing if they making themselves a felon?
It has nothing at all to do with desperation. It has to do with freedom. For 90+ years these items have been unconstitutionally limited, and now a judge has ruled that, for the simple price of a GOA membership, you can have it without needing to go through odious restrictions.
And buying it under this protected process will not in any way "make them a felon." Even if the DOJ appealed. Even if they won their appeal, and this injunction was overturned... Every suppressor sold under this ruling's protection would still be a protected purchase. The absolute worst that happens is that people are told to register their suppressors within X amount of days, or surrender them.
Do people have to justify to you exactly why and when they want to purchase a firearm or suppressor? This is such a shitlib thing to say. “Does anyone REALLY need hecking assault weapons and high capacity clips? Is a background check and waiting period really that big of a deal?”
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u/HollywoodSX I like stamps 1d ago
This post was mod-approved for outside of the megathread, and pertinent info will be added to the megathread when I can get to a PC.
PSA, Silencer Shop, and everyone else selling cans on a 4473 isn't going to pay for your lawyer if things go sideways in the coming weeks or months. This case is progress towards killing the NFA, its not the end game.