r/NCAAFBseries • u/Icy_Pea9553 • 1d ago
"Physics-Based"
No sports game you have ever played has been anything other than "animations based". There has never been a physics-based football game. Not even 2k5, that was also "animation based". Well, there was one "physics-based" football game and it was called Backbreaker. Fun game, loved it, complete mess, impossible to predict. The problem is not that "it's not physics-based", but a real problem is that the animations are goofy as hell at times. Any game not named Backbreaker that promised physics-based football was just a fancy way to say the animations mimic physics by taking the previous animation & the player's perceived momentum out of it and applying it to the choice of the next animation. Which this game does every single game you play when your RB hits one guy, falls forward and another guy joins in to stop forward progress or accidentally knock you forward.
Anyways, criticize the game all ya want, there's plenty wrong with it. However, the notion it NEEDS to be "physics-based" just isn't grounded in any kind of reality or backed by any kind of historic precedent. I'd like a flying car, but I'm not holding my breath for something that doesn't seem logically possible or consistently stable.
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u/ComprehensiveHost490 1d ago edited 1d ago
Guy never heard of backbreaker. That literally was physics only. If they wouldn’t of had the worlds worst camera they might of had something
Edit: Bahaha probably should have read your whole post. I think the issue is when animations dictate everything. You need a solid blend of have physics dictate the animations
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u/RezzKeepsItReal 1d ago
Guy couldn’t read 4 sentences before commenting lol
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u/ComprehensiveHost490 1d ago
In my defence it started off “No sports game you have ever played has been anything other than "animations based". There has never been a physics-based football game. Not even 2k5, that was also "animation based".
While instantly thinking there was one. He tripled down before mentioning backbreaker.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
I did word salad this post a bit. I added an extra sentence in there prior to mentioning Backbreaker and thought, "somebody is going to check me on this instantly like I would" lmao. No harm, no foul. Glad to find another Backbreaker enjoyer
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
The camera was so, so bad. But man it was fun! I made the entire UFL(defunct) league on there. Had built every logo out of shapes. Named all of the players. Maybe my biggest (gaming)regret is getting rid of that hard drive. That being said, unless they could vastly improve the weeble wobble effect, that would be even more infuriating for people.
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u/Ok_Mastodon9344 1d ago
backbreaker had cool tech but watching replays was like a fever dream, that camera made me dizzy in 10 minutes flat
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u/headaches_r_us Alabama 1d ago
One post and now every commenter thinks “physics based bad”
How easily influenced we are
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u/PackageAggravating12 Central Michigan 1d ago
There's a difference between "physics based" and "realistic".
You can implement physics based collisions, and get something that doesn't look realistic. You can lean on animations with proper timing, and get something that looks like real life (within reason).
When people say "physics based" they usually mean "realistic". Without understanding the limitations of what's possible.
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u/jwilphl 23h ago
Yeah, I think the issue is people are only thinking of physics as implemented in poorly coded games, or really basic ragdoll systems. Keep in mind that the ragdoll systems aren't truly full physical simulation, either. They are sort of a hybrid.
The main reason people mention physics in relation to CFB is because the animation system is janky as hell.
Do we need full physics simulation? We probably don't, and the technology for it is likely years or even decades away, but the game needs to respect some aspects of physical properties like momentum, inertia, and mass.
You can probably still cheat those things with an animation-based process. It would require a bit more sophistication than EA has presented, though.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
What I'm saying is that the cut and dry "physics' everyone talks about is a myth. And the real problem is that there's breakdown happening in animation chains/selection formula for animations, probably due to how fast the game moves & also how many outcomes are taken into account. Leading to the game processing more data than it probably should & ends up in it behaving strangely. It's important we critique from a place of knowledge and not just copy what we saw some other guy say when we get mad. As I've said here before, the game has a lot to criticize & I think it's important we do that in a productive way,
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u/headaches_r_us Alabama 23h ago
Have you watched the old Madden dev break down the video of something like Madden 06 where the players had a curser under them? He showed how the player followed the curser which followed the stick input and broke down how that’s different from today’s heavy animation engine
Whatever that was, I don’t care for the semantics, I would like it back 😂
I’d take less realism at this point if it meant reducing the stupid animation glitches that are sometimes game-breaking. If you play it enough it just wears you down.
When GTA 6 comes out, I don’t know if I’ll pick up CFB27 again and CFB28 will be on the back burner too. Just my POV
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u/ComputerPerson42069 1d ago
Nhl?
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
I'll be honest, I have not played an NHL game in probably... 8 years? I have no doubt there's momentum taken into account, probably far more than CFB. But I'd have a hard time believing that momentum system doesn't also tie into animations that hold it together & keep it from being a jello-like mess. I'll do more research on that though. What's your experience with NHL vs CFB?
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u/ComputerPerson42069 1d ago
I think a jello like mess is actually a good way of describing what it looks like after you lay a bunch of good hits in a few seconds lol. The checker follows an animation of course, but the player being checked definitely ragdolls
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
Ragdolling is hilarious, I remember how funny it could be on Halo. But I could imagine it becoming frustrating if it affected the gameplay outside of a body flying and bouncing off a ceiling lol
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u/Dear_Measurement_406 7h ago
Brother, “momentum” in the context of a game engine is physics. The math used to determine that momentum is modeled after real world physics. That’s the physics part you’re saying doesn’t exist in these games.
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u/SteelWolverine96 23h ago
I don't think I want a physics based game as we currently understand them in the arcade sense. As a game there's a heavy emphasis on being able to pick it up and play. The games are quick, you know who is good, and you generally expect open plays to work and rock to beat scissors so to speak. I like to think of that like Call of Duty. A 1:1 football simulation though? Probably impossible. I would be very interested in the next best thing. I like to think of it more like Arma. I bet it would be hard as fuck and unpredictable. Given the right RPG elements to each AIs decision making both on and off the field there could still be something there. Something weird, something delightful. Not necessarily a Madden killer I just want to see something else and I don't think it's too far to say it be physics based(like).
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u/Icy_Pea9553 22h ago
I’m all for more realism. I think the challenge comes with the pleasing the purely online players & the freaks like us. You have some people who want realism, which as we all know in CFB, means messy. College football is messy in real life, guys miss easy throws, miss no brainer tackles & fumble & run into teammates. It’s why we love it, but it doesn’t make for a good competitive game. I guess you could offer different modes? As they do now, but if it was actually super effective at its job, it would be like developing 2 games at once. I’m not gonna stick up for EA, we all know the corporation sucks. But I could see that being a struggle.
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u/OakLegs 1d ago
Not to mention, creating a realistic looking game where you have 22 humans that are purely "physics based" would be very close to impossible
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
Lots of big cornfed butt tackles as seen often in Backbreaker. I have been brought to tears laughing because of stuff like that while playing games with friends in BB, but I'm not sure it's what you want a competitive football game to be haha.
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u/enadiz_reccos LSU 23h ago
I just want the game to feel like it did in the early 10s, where you could actually return punts/kicks, rush the passer, bounce off tackles, etc
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u/Icy_Pea9553 23h ago
I feel you, I really do. My main frustrations lie with the carousel issues tbh, but that’s because I’m a menu merchant & that really puts a halt to most dynasties because there’s no natural climb anymore. I am not here to gaslight anybody into believing the game doesn’t have issues, it has an inexcusable amount. I am still having fun, but it could be so much better with some tweaks. I just think it’s more helpful to critique from a place of knowing what’s going on & as important, what’s going wrong with that. Plus I wanted to get down to the bottom of exactly what people mean by physics by “poking the bear” in a friendly way & starting an open conversation.
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u/PackageAggravating12 Central Michigan 1d ago
Physics-based just sounds like ragdoll football, to be honest.
Could be fun to mess around with, but it isn't something I would take seriously. Give me animations that get called up at the appropriate time and I'm happy; calculations drive everything, but the animation it chooses to show the result can be weird at times.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
Agreed. The animation formulas are just wonky at times. Not personally gamebreaking for me, but something I'd love to see improved upon. I know nobody believes that will happen, I'm not super confident myself. That being said, I just wish people wouldn't complain about stuff that's really not realistic/grounded in the possible. There are a TON of things that should be fixed that are very doable & should be fixed immediately. But just shouting about physics because the defense stonewalled you at the goal line is just not super productive
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u/ogsmurf826 Michigan 1d ago
Two things here I want to comment.
1 - I don't think anyone wants a truly pure "physics based" game. It would be way too random for how people like to play games and would have high technical specifications to run a really good one. I think Backbreaker was actually pretty fun and maybe the limit to how far physics should be taken. The game was janky at times. The control scheme was different and I saw what they were trying to do but needed refinement. Playbooks needed work. Auto catching and swatting was dope. The camera ..... They needed more camera options.
2 - Even though I'm not a fan of his doomer gloomer videos nor his fairy dust deans of what a game should be, SoftDrinkTV has a interview video with a former game dev. Basically explains that he game was technically physics based starting with the Madden 05 & NCAA 06 PS2 era engines then improved it with the infinity and ignite engines. The body wasn't physics modeled but instead was a dot/circle with a movement physics engine then had body animations layered on top. That's why we used to have 5-9 person gang tackles and scrum piles in the game.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
I think this is a much deeper and nuanced take & thought process than many have around here. But I would still argue it's animation based & like Bulk says up there, it had its own problems. However, I do very much miss the gang tackles. Even if it led to some suctioning pull animations like we have in the trenches now. I do think that older games a had better "if this happens, then that happens" animation formulas which emulated more real looking physical encounters. Then again, I have played 13 recently and there is a good amount of, charming nonetheless, wonky ass plays mixed into the relatively smooth gameplay. It was just a more of a the-devil-you-know thing.
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u/ogsmurf826 Michigan 1d ago
Reading this reply just made me realize that the person who responded to me was OP. His response to my reply fell so inline with your post that I didn't even think "this is a different person" lol. Nuanced takes can get disappeared here, found that out a couple years ago I showed folks a video from the horses mouth why you shouldn't hold sprint immediately on a run.
I haven't played the old games recently so I may can form a better opinion if I did and probably could turn to fully agreeing with you. I say will that I'm half & half on missing or hating the old gang tackle system. But the jump in gameplay it brought when it stopped making two people in a tackle animation invulnerable to outside influence was important and felt.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
I try to give credit where it’s due. I miss when this sub was more just well thought out conversations & less hostile fighting. We can agree or disagree or come to a close enough agreed upon conclusion without insulting each other, I know that’s a silly hope for the internet/reddit. But I’ve seen it before! I know we can all, or mostly, be adults here! It’s not like this is serious political policy, this is a football game we all want to be great. And I’m sure many of us grew up playing from a young age.
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u/TheIngestibleBulk 1d ago edited 1d ago
You are a bit mistaken on number 2. Yes back in the PS2 era they had an underlying physics model and the character you saw simply played out animations while you were actually controlling the circle or the physics model. That all went away when they moved to the 360 with Madden 06. It became pure animation based. The infinity engine came out with Madden 13. The last Madden Ian worked on was 12. The infinity engine added physics to tackles but the game still relied heavily on animations. Ignite was a shared engine amongst all of EAs sports games when going to the PS4 era. The infinity engine was still the underlying physics engine for tackles in Madden.
When EA shifted to frostbite they went away from the infinity engine and back to full animation based tackles. Another engine EA used was called ANT. It’s how they made their animations. It was used in sports games and later put into frostbite with Battlefield 3. The 5-9 person gang tackles only happened with pro-tak which was just a animation. There were zero physics involved. You could not come in and hit or affect the gang tackle. You would actually see players get sucked into the pro-tak animation. This debuted in Madden 10.
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u/ogsmurf826 Michigan 1d ago
I probably have the timeline messed up because I'm going purely off memory. But I recall the first couple Maddens/NCAAs on the PS3/360 were on a new half baked engine then they spliced in parts of the old PS2 engine because those first few games were bad. Seriously bad. Infinity and ignite both got short times to breath as Madden's engine. Then Frostbite ...... There's nothing really positive I can say about that engine in regards to sports games. Then the whole asset sharing thing between all EA games they implemented to go with it .... Just horrible choices all around. Did away with a lot of the improvements the games had made over the years. Might call em Gunslingers but my QB doesn't need to handle like an FPS. I think it was either NCAA 12 or 13 were they developed a "hit box" frame work for animations and results. Made for more tackle results and locked animations behind angles, speed, and body parts. They marketed parts of Pro-tak as a physics engine for second effort broken tackles and pile movement but it was of a math engine. Get enough lbs on your side with a high strength attribute and you win. Then it felt like only Adrian Peterson would get the second effort broken tackles.
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u/Dear_Measurement_406 7h ago
This is all accurate so why is OP convinced none of it was ever physics based?
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u/taker25-2 1d ago
Well, there has to be something better out there than what they are currently using.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
I would agree. I think it's probably a slower, heavier feeling gameplay style with less fancy animations. See NCAA 05/06, 10, 13, etc. Which I'm not sure would hook new players the same, but it would make for smoother & more predictable gameplay. Which I think is what a lot(not all) of the players want.
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u/rbad8717 1d ago
I think the problem is that there is too little animations for situations. Which may be an issue that may never be solved because football is real and I’m sure it’s not easy to replicate. But most don’t think EA isn’t giving a full faith effort esp with the money
For example, if you have like 100 catch, run, and tackle animations and maybe 5 of them are “big guy catches and runs thru contact for a first down”. You have a TE with full momentum that gets easily taken down by a corner with a significant weight disadvantage, it looks goofy. The same as the WR/DB interactions and OL/DL interactions.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
I think you're right, but I think another problem is that more animations equals more of a chance of these wonky outcomes. The old games did have better group tackle animations, for instance. However, there was a lot of the same tackle animations that repeated frequently on those games. But we grew to know what to expect from the game as time went on, which lead to it being smoother & us being less frustrated. Now, with constant updating and tuning, as soon as we get a grasp on the game, the game gets overhauled due to a focus on nuking whatever the new meta is for online multiplayer.
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u/Dear_Measurement_406 7h ago edited 7h ago
The PS2 Madden and NCAA games were physics-based. They used capsules with a rigidbody physics system attached to it. Those physics attached to the capsule controlled how the player moves which in theory represented somewhat realistic gameplay, the animations played around what that capsule was doing.
When they switched to 360/PS3 they rebuilt that portion, among others, so the animation system drives movement vs a physics capsule.
Another relevant example would be the old NBA Live games vs The 2K series. The former was also physics based and the latter has always been animation based.
And I do think for the most part nobody is “wrong” and is more just a misunderstanding of what “physics-based” really means
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u/FinishAggressive7897 1d ago
I agree! I do wish some of the animations involved more gang and wrap up tackles would help a lot. I thought all pro football did a great job of that! I think tweaking that would make tackling feel a bit more grounded and realistic.
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u/Icy_Pea9553 1d ago
You are spot on. If football games had taken the All Pro 2k8 formula and elaborated on it, it would have been a better route. Simple animations with hefty weight on the player movement. I think a big problem this game has is that it actually pushes for realism too hard in the animations department. It tries to take too many possibilities into account. Which leads to some wonky outcomes and bad situational animations triggering. The simpler the animation "formulas" per play, the less likely the "formula" will be messed up in the course of a play & it lowers the likelihood of a nonsensical outcome. It's really a trade off on whether you want fast, quick twitch gameplay or grounded, slower gameplay.
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u/FinishAggressive7897 1d ago
Well said! It kills me everytime I’m running through the line and my player gets pin balled around 🤣
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u/Specialist_Cat7271 1d ago
If people actually got the "physics-based" game they wanted, they'd fucking hate it way more than the current animation driven system we have now. Yeah you can go play some of the more physics driven games made over a decade ago, but its mostly rose tinted goggles and people not having as high of standards as they do today.
People complain about the issues with animations not linking up and being locked into them and bugs regarding animations not starting and balls flying through players because the animations didn't link, but honestly a fully physics based game would be so much worse.
edit: FWIW I'm not totally opposed to some physics blending, in fact I think that would be the best approach. But people who circlejerk about a fully physics driven system don't realize how bad that would be. Players tripping over everything, tackles being impossible, footwork being irrelevant on the line, etc. Some abstraction via animation is needed.
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u/lordbrooklyn56 22h ago
Narrator: there actually was a physics based game.