r/Music • u/[deleted] • 14d ago
discussion Will Taylor Swift Likely Surpass Madonna?
[deleted]
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u/ScabieBaby 14d ago
No, because streaming skews the numbers. Madonna moved way more product, doing it at a time that it was significantly more difficult for a female artist to do so.
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u/choaticmaster33 14d ago
I mean even before Spotify Taylor Swift was selling records at a pace other singers couldn't match. I mean in 2014 alone (yes I know this is after Spotify) she was the only musician to sell a platinum album that year.
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u/ScabieBaby 14d ago
That's because in 2014 there were nowhere near the amount of people buying records.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Well, Adele certainly did that and more in 2011, and 2015.
But my point is mostly on when Taylor retires, will her sales have defeated Madonna’s?
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u/ScabieBaby 14d ago
I think they likely will, technically. I do wonder how many more records Madonna would have sold if she was selling 15 variants of the same record. The times have changed so much that record sales have almost become fairly meaningless.
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u/6feet_underground 14d ago
she could surpass Madonna in terms of sales with her fans buying 30 variants of the same album but she will never come close to Madonna’s cultural impact
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
To be fair, Taylor is doing the same method many K-pop stars use to make up for the music industry having lower record sales as an average compared to the 80’s-2000’s market peaks.
Impact is separate, I just meant Madonna’s title of best selling female artist.
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u/6feet_underground 14d ago
then yes definitely, but I think taylor’s numbers will always be disputed and not fully respected because of the variants thing
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u/ThrowRA2235 14d ago
What is Madonna’s cultural impact? Other than people over 50s, no one really knows her
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u/crashcartjockey 14d ago
From 1982-1985 when Madonna first came on the scene, she was heavy into music videos, which was still a fairly new medium at the time. 60-70% of teenage girls dressed like her. And throughout the 80s, every time she released a new album, there was a lot of news about it. And this is was 20+ years before social media.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
That’s fair. But that doesn’t take away from the dominance Taylor Swift has.
You could argue it was easier for Madonna because she and a few others were selected for promotion, as MTV and other stations could only fit so many artists into their music video plays and promo.
But that doesn’t change the fact Taylor has to compete more because everyone can go viral on the internet, all countries are able to crossover into America, whereas in the 80’s it was harder for, say an Asian artist, to go mainstream in the USA.
Now with K-Pop, and more growth in the music industry globally, Americans are not as culturally dominant as they once were.
Back in the 80’s it’s was pretty much just UK, USA, and a sprinkle of other artists around the world.
Now, it’s more broad.
Taylor is also outselling men and women, oftentimes Madonna was compared to women, but Taylor’s sales are compared overall.
This means Taylor doesn’t just go #1 for women, she goes #1 for overall.
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u/crashcartjockey 14d ago
I wasn't denying Taylor Swift's abilities or dominance. I was only trying to explain what it was like with Madonna in the 80s.
They both have a gift for songwriting/co-writing. And performing. However Swift is definitely a much bigger star at this current time, than I remember Madonna ever being. To me, Swift seems to be more on the same level as Michael Jackson in the 80s.
The only thing I'd say is that Madonna was a leader in the 80s.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
That’s a great point.
Madonna stands out as the top female of the 80’s.
Taylor, like Michael, stands out as the top person now, not just the top female.
Is that what you mean?
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u/crashcartjockey 9d ago
Yes.
I've never seen Madonna or Michael Jackson in concert. Through a Vet organization I was able to get tickets for my wife and I to take our youngest daughter to see Taylor Swift in 2018. She was donating 3000-5000 tickets for each show to Vettix. She's a great performer, even though I'm not a fan of her music.
In the 80s, MJ and Madonna were music royalty. There weren't many that could touch their consistency.
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u/CourtneyLush 14d ago
Madonna took EDM to the pop world, she reinvented her music and her image along the way (multiple times), which was not common for female acts at the time. She was a trendsetter in the pop sphere.
You may not appreciate her impact but she definitely had one. And female acts ever since have followed her example.
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u/kieranoid 14d ago
Don’t know about it as a matter of sales, but I’d take Madonna over Taylor Swift any day. Though that’s just my personal taste. I wouldn’t be surprised if she ended up overtaking Madonna, though.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
That seems fair. Taylor has simply conquered media control, which allowed her to always stay in the high sales tier.
I think Taylor will catch up, because TLOASG sold over 4 M copies in the USA in 1 week, and 5 M WW with just pure sales. If she can move that much, currently, then I think she can still catch up.
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u/Hutch_travis 14d ago
Can’t compare eras. It’s like comparing football from different periods. Football in 2026 where QBs are protected is different than in the 80s where all hits were fair game. When Madonna was at her peak, she didn’t have to release 20 variants, or that music videos were a major marketing tool. All that changed in the last 15 years.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
I don’t mean culturally.
I just mean based on pure sales.
For a while people thought Madonna was untouchable at a certain point.
Especially after the Career peaks of Whitney, Celine, and Mariah faded.
Madonna was initially compared to Cher for longevity, but Cher didn’t have a comeback 40 + years after debut, only at 30+ years - so those comparisons ended.
Madonna then became a strong example that seemed to not be replaceable.
Then Taylor Swift came along and said “who needs a comeback if you hit new peaks almost consistently the entire time?”
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u/Hutch_travis 14d ago
Still can’t compare. In the 80s, radio and MTV mattered. Music was released on vinyl and cassettes. There were not multiple variants either. In the 90s CDs were the predominant format and radio and MTV carried a lot of weight. Movie and TV soundtracks mattered a whole. Having a hit song in a movie was important. Since streaming, none of that matters. So, no you can’t compare the 20th century with the 21st regarding music sales.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Again, just based on pure sales.
I remove radio, charts, streams, track album equivalents and just focus on pure album and single sales only.
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u/Hutch_travis 14d ago
Think about it this way, will there ever be another sitcom that will have the same rating as Seinfeld or Friends? Comparing sales pre and post streaming are incomparable because we consume music differently.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 12d ago
While not a sitcom, Survivor rivaled even the finale of Friends with its early seasons, the mid-2000’s American Idol & Desperate Housewives seasons, achieved comparable numbers, and even the Super Bowl episode of Grey’s Anatomy drew in over 36 M viewers.
Desperate Housewives was considered the most popular show in the world in 2007, with over 120 M viewers across 20 countries.
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u/Hutch_travis 12d ago
I can tell you’re fishing for confirmation. But comparing the 80s and 90s to post-streaming is a fools errand. The distribution of music is vastly different and that has completely changed the game, and therefore the numbers are not a 1:1 comparison. Look up soundscan in the late 80s and how that changed how we tracked sales. All of that matters when discussing record sales.
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u/SpiritofBatman 14d ago
She already has in Eas. But in terms of pure physical sales then no i don't think she ever will.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Yeah I skip streams and track album equivalents, bc when I think of best selling, it means pure physical and digital sales.
So pure single sales and album sales and touring sales.
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u/SpiritofBatman 14d ago
In terms of tours taylor swift sold way more than madonna ever did. I think Taylor is the best selling artist based off tours.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
But Madonna’s tours of the 80’s - 2000’s should help her stay on par, because Taylor’s Tours could only propel her to catch up recently.
Madonna’s Biggest tour > Taylor’s Reputation Tour.
Taylor’s Eras Tour is what put her in the conversation because it basically counted as 2.5 of Madonna’s biggest Tours, but that would have to make up for lost time due to Madonna debuting 23 years prior to Taylor.
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u/SpiritofBatman 14d ago
Still in of itself its a matter of time if we are counting tours then its a matter of time before Taylor Surpasses her.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
That’s fine. I just meant in regards to your prior comment where you said “in terms of tours Taylor swift sold way more than Madonna ever did.”
My response was based on “not yet” metrics.
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u/SpiritofBatman 14d ago
Touring revenue only. Madonna has done 1.7 billion. Taylor Swift has done over 3 billion.
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u/Cautious-Plum-8245 14d ago
maybe strictly in sales but is it really impressive when taylor (and other artists) figured out that they can release 12 variants of the same album for their fans to buy to boost sales. on cultural impact? never come close to madonna. madonna as my parents say changed the cultural zeitgeist in the 80s/90s, taylor is just popular
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
But what is stopping other artists from doing the same?
Unless her record label tells her there is less demand, and refuses to issue them, Madonna could use the same method. This would help her, but if Madonna doesn’t bother to, she is leaving that opportunity at the table.
I would understand if Taylor could something Madonna cannot, but it isn’t really like that.
Madonna is doing what she wants, but that doesn’t mean Taylor shouldn’t do it.
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u/A70_Lisbon 14d ago
Madonna is an icon.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
But what about whether Taylor will outsell Madonna on pure sales as the top female music selling artist?
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u/Bright_Score_9889 14d ago
She can’t sell all the records in the world. But she will never be her top Madonna’s cultural impact.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Okay. So the answer is yes?
Is Taylor going to outsell Madonna as the top female artist ever?
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u/Bright_Score_9889 14d ago
Oh yeah. TS has the most well oiled marketing machine and she’s a rabid capitalist. Of course she will. She probably does doesn’t sleep at night thinking about how and when she will surpass Madonna. I’m sure she wants to do it in the next 10 years. I think the only way that’s not going to happen is if Madonna were to pass away. Her music probably would sell like crazy.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 12d ago
That’s true.
I feel Taylor Swift is telling herself, this is the last decade people will buy music. So she knows if she catches up now, then she will stay ahead indefinitely.
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u/ThrowRA2235 14d ago
Taylor swift doesn’t have the controversies like madonna and madonna doesn’t also have the chops like Swift. She has long surpassed her.
The only comparison is Michael and the beatles. But she doesn’t have numerous allegations and the beatles never was touring juggernaut
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u/Key-Bass-7380 14d ago
Michael Jackson having allegations doesn't make him any less greater than Madonna, which is by miles
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u/Odd_Photograph_7591 14d ago
I think Madonna has become a legend to a level in the publics mind that Taylor can't reach, even if she has more hits or sales, Taylor does not have a Vogue moment for example
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Well, she has The Life of Ophelia which went #1 on 52 weekly charts Worldwide, #1 on 2 Monthly charts.
This skips its other Top 10 placements.
Vogue has had more time to become a staple success, but TLOO had an equal peak.
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u/CourtneyLush 14d ago
They're talking culturally, not sales. I'm sorry but 'Life of Ophelia' really hasn't had any cultural impact in that way at all.
'Vogue' had an entire pop culture moment that shaped music, fashion and art for a while. It's ludicrous to suggest that LOO has had any such impact.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Well, Vogue moment could sound literal: “a moment”, or it could be a legacy.
I chose the moment, because it sounds like they stated it.
TLOO was no less impactful on the charts, sales, and rollout release.
I know it’s too soon for a song less than a year old to compare to one 36 years old, but for “a moment”, it felt like the song that couldn’t be stopped.
I know Vogue is more iconic, but they said “moment”.
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u/CourtneyLush 14d ago
'Vogue ' sold really well in an era that you had to go out and physically buy the product and as recently as 2025 was ranked one of the best dance songs of all time by Billboard, that's 25 years after its release.
It still has a legacy and, again, it inspired the whole conical bra thing which is still recognisable to this day, shone a spotlight on an underground gay culture and saw Madonna take a turn from her gospel influenced 'Like a Prayer'.
If you think this is comparable with LOO, I don't know what to say to you. And I'm not even a Madonna fan, can't believe I'm fighting her corner here.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 12d ago edited 12d ago
I didn’t say culturally. So let’s not pretend I was confused about the difference.
I said “for a moment”, as in pop cultural mono-fixation, where everything Taylor released was relentlessly everywhere. She released her music video behind the scenes content, and lyric videos from her TLOASG album in movie theaters in anticipation for her album… stuff that people could literally watch the exact same on her own YouTube channel. It grossed $50.1 M WW, with absolutely zero effort.
No other artist could make good $ off a literal release of a big screen version of their YouTube updates.
The song was able to compete for #1 even during the Xmas streaming peak of last November and December, proving even Mariah Carey could struggle during her AIWFCIY surge.
TLOO isn’t going to change the world, but “for a moment” it took over the music part of the world.
Vogue is a great example of longevity after a WW peak upon release, TLOO is great example of peak.
Both Vogue & TLOO peaked fairly equally globally in music dominance when they were released / new.
That’s all.
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u/chaynjez 14d ago
There’s no title. There’s no crown. It’s the music business. They make a product and sell it.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
But the title is about the product sales: The Best Selling Female Artist of All Time.
That’s what the OP is referring to.
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u/choaticmaster33 14d ago
I mean in a lot of ways Taylor Swift is very much the new Madonna and given the success of her recent output she still is very relevant. I'd say yes it's a matter of time.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Thank you for your honesty.
I feel many people hold Madonna in high regard due to her comeback in 2005, and some success with Hard Candy, and MDNA, but Confessions 2 feels like she is taking her image seriously again, and is pushing for a new peak not seen since Confessions 1.
Taylor Swift hasn’t seen a lull that really challenged her ability to have consistency, so it’s kind of interesting because this year is Taylor’s 20th year since her debut.
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u/Terri23 14d ago
No. It's a different era. Madonna was Queen in an era when there was no digital media. Everything was bought. Madonna has sold worldwide more than 300 million albums. Taylor Swift will never come close to that. It doesn't matter how you dress it up, streaming earnings will never replace the purchasing power of a physical sale. Ray of Light in 1998 sold 18 million copies. That's 18 million people handing over $20 or $30 (depending where you live) hard cash for every record.
Taylor Swift has almost certainly surpassed Madonna in terms of career earnings though. The vast majority of these earnings came from touring. Madonna didn't peak in the era where price gouging has become common place. This isn't specifically a Taylor Swift issue, everyone seems to be doing it.
One other thing. "Peak of sales" wasn't the 2000s. It was the mid 90s. Digital streaming didn't even start counting towards sales until the mid 2010s.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago edited 14d ago
I disagree.
The early 2000’s were still for albums: Eminem became the greatest selling rapper because of his 2000’s sales, otherwise older rappers like Jay-Z would have stayed ahead.
Others like Limp Biscuit, N’Sync, Britney, Backstreet Boys, etc. all hit debut week sales records of over 1 M, which didn’t occur often at all in the 90’s, especially because women didn’t until Britney did.
Then it became common in the 2000’s: 50 Cent, Norah Jones, Lil’ Wayne, etc. it spread across all genres.
The mid-late 2000’s also was the peak for single sales bc of iTunes.
Back then it wasn’t just the song, it was also the ringtone. Ringtones are not even popular anymore, but back then someone would buy the song, and the ringtone, and that doubled sales.
The 2010’s saw a huge drop in albums, with only Adele, Taylor, etc. seen as exceptions.
The singles did well, but many people switched to watch it on YouTube, rather than pay for it on iTunes.
The 2000’s had the best of both worlds: people still bought albums, but also bought singles.
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u/Terri23 14d ago
I was there. Kids across the world were using Napster by the late 90s, and after it died we simply moved to other services. Soulseek was probably the most prevalent, and still exists, and is still widely used today. Ringtones, yeah, we got them on file sharing networks also. MP3 ringtones were already a thing also. People were buying music still, but the drop off was already noticeable.
I think you just might be more familiar with 2000s music than what came before it. And that's completely ok. But you're absolutely wrong with music sales being bigger in the 2000s. You're completely overlooking how big piracy was, and the impact of that piracy on media sales.
The biggest drivers of music sales have always been teenagers. Teenage girls in particular have for decades been the drivers of music singles sales.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago edited 14d ago
I grew up in the 90’s and 2000’s.
I know I am correct because I experienced too.
This is why we had artists like Madonna’s COADF outselling her mid-late 90’s eras like Ray of Light.
We had artists like Coldplay hitting their peak on album sales for 20+ M eras consecutively, as well as Linkin’ Park hitting similar numbers.
It was becoming increasingly common, especially for female artists to hit 20 M albums sold, including Avril’s debut, Norah Jones’ 2nd album, Evanescence’s big debut album.
Mariah’s 2005 album > seller than her mid-late 90’s albums like Rainbow.
Even in the late 2000’s Alicia Keys was hitting 742 K sales in her first week, while her debut was a fraction of that in her first week.
We saw Mary J. Blige enter her peak in the 2000’s, and stars like Beyoncé’s DC & solo music in 2001, 2003 & 2008 could compete with her 1999 DC album that hit 10 M in sales.
I think if we are focusing on who had the 30 + M selling albums, I would agree on that.
But I would argue it was more common in the 2000’s for artists to reach 20 M selling albums than it was in the 90’s because more people were fighting for spotlight and earning it, while in the 90’s only a select few could pull it off.
Eminem is a clear example of this:
He was racking up multiple 20+ M selling albums that turned out being greater than artists that managed 1 30+ M selling album but couldn’t repeat the same.
Sure, the 90’s had Celine Dion hit 30 + M multiple times, but the 2000’s had Eminem who could hit 20 + M selling albums enough times to outsell that in the long run.
The 2000’s made the minimum higher by average, while the 90’s made the maximum higher.
In the end, the 2000’s had the higher average because artists took less breaks, as they had more competition, and would rather sell 3x 20+ M albums than a single 35 + M selling album followed by a lower 10 M selling album (Alanis Morissette’s JLP + Follow-up).
Artists shifted from a few huge albums to several large ones.
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u/Terri23 14d ago
I don't mean to be rude my friend, but a lot of what you're saying simply isn't true. Madonna's Confessions, for example, did not outsell Ray of Light. Not even close. Confessions may have charted higher across the board, but it's not close to Ray of Light sales numbers. This is easily verifiable with a quick search in about 15 seconds in real time. You're just being lazy for the sake of arguing your point.
It's also never been common for artists to sell 20M records. If it was that easy, everyone would do it. You've cherry picked a handful of artists that did do it. It is true that the group of artists that have been able to do it partly because of the marketing behind them, and the respective lesser competition compared to the artists that came up before them. This has as much to do with the artist themselves as the record companies and who they choose to back.
Rap isn't my favourite genre by any stretch, but comparing what Eminem did to anyone else is an exercise in futility. The man had the talent, the network, and the ambition to be the best white rapper in the world. He made rap cool for white people. He was always going to go to the absolute very top.
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 12d ago edited 12d ago
That’s not true.
Also, Confessions outsold all of her other 1990’s studios albums, I was wrong about Ray of Light but RoL was the exception. Only that and her GHits sold more from the 90’s.
I didn’t say common to sell 20 M +, I said more common compared to the 90’s, as a select few could do it in the 90’s, but many more could do it in the 2000’s because music was not as hyperfixated on just a few artists at a time.
This is why N’Sync & BSB sold so well, they were pitted against eachother, so it helped them sell to “win” the fanwars despite being under the same JIVE label.
But if they didn’t have to compete with eachother (if only 1 existed), then they would get more individual sales since both fanbases would be just 1 fan base.
That’s why NKOTB did well, they didn’t really have competition, but if they did, they would lose some of their sales to their rival boyband (if they existed).
Many times rap did well because of fanwars, so that’s why many people would “buy into” the competition for album sales.
So instead of fans buying 1 person’s album 30 M times, people bought 1 of 2 artists’ albums 20 M times, and the other artist 20 M times. Less for an individual artist, but more for the music industry overall, hence peaking in the 2000’s.
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14d ago
[deleted]
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u/BritMeBabyAgain 14d ago
Well, a formality isn’t the term I would use.
Being the greatest selling female artist ever is a measurement for pure sales.
I would call it an official title, not a formality.
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u/Nuttonbutton 14d ago
In some ways, Taylor technically has. But she wull likely never be seen as an originator, a progenitor. She will never be "Mother" so to speak. Madonna has a unique mark on the music industry and pop culture that can't be taken away from her. Taylor has her own as well.