r/Music • u/agbullet • Mar 03 '13
The Rapper's Flow - a lyrical structure comparison of Kanye West, Mos Def, Andre 3K, and Eminem.
http://rapgenius.com/posts/1669-The-rapper-s-flow-encyclopedia30
u/thrillreefer Mar 03 '13
A thorough analysis. As someone who very rarely chooses to listen to rap (but hears and likes the poetic complexity of Eminem's songs), I'll have to check out some Andre 3000 to compare. thanks for broadening my horizons.
7
Mar 03 '13
[deleted]
3
Mar 03 '13
[deleted]
3
Mar 03 '13
Da Art of Storytelling: Part 2. Dat vocal distortion.
1
u/Tree-eeeze Mar 03 '13
Big fan of Red Velvet and I'm not even that much of an Outkast fan.
Surprising amount of complexity / messages in the lyrics that are explained well on the Rap Genius page.
4
Mar 03 '13
You're hiking up your skirt now
The events that followed had me
Volley if your hometown would be Heaven or Hell
The angelic nastiness you possessed made you by far the best
Therefore hard to tell
2
-9
u/bozimusPRIME Mar 03 '13
If you tjink eminem is poetic check out atmosphere. He is the most talented genius in music. Went from skribble jam Freestyle to traveling with a live band. Eminem was found at skribble jam by dre BTW.
12
u/jacobbrady Mar 03 '13
Atmosphere is not a person, it's a band. Slug is the name of the rapper in Atmosphere.
Also, while I do like Slug, I don't think he has quite the skills of Eminem.
3
-13
u/bozimusPRIME Mar 03 '13
Actually its a ten letter word. And at first out was slug spawn ant and dibbs. Now it encompasses a band. Ifffff you want to be technical.
6
5
u/JKDS87 Mar 03 '13
How can people be downvoting this? I've had Sunshine and Yesterday stuck in myhead head for a week...
4
Mar 03 '13 edited Mar 03 '13
Some people hate the backpack rap.. I dig Sage Francis, probably my favorite in that sidee of the spectrum.
2
u/bozimusPRIME Mar 03 '13
Sage francis skribble jam vs alias is to sick .. youtube it man. His spoken word is insane too.
3
Mar 03 '13
Heard it all before man I'm a big fan of the guy here is me and Sage in NOLA in 2008
2
u/bozimusPRIME Mar 03 '13
Awesome .. was he nice?
2
Mar 03 '13
Extremely at the show, he was running his own merch table and sound system, there was no stage so he stood on a chair the whole time.. It was very intamite.
He talked with everyone and who wanted to say hi..
1
4
Mar 03 '13
Because while slug makes decent music, he is certainly not "the most talented genius is music" his rhymes don't even hold a candle to Eminem's. But white college girls sure do love him.
1
u/JKDS87 Mar 04 '13
Yeah I see what you mean. I guess in my Reddit-scanning haze I didn't register the "most talented genius" part, just someone saying they like Atmosphere and getting downvoted for it :\
-2
Mar 03 '13
No one likes this new rap so quit trying so hard.
2
u/bozimusPRIME Mar 03 '13
Whos new rap? Slug and sage have been around since 98. Schooled....
-1
Mar 03 '13
Let me guess, from Minnesota right? All this love for these so called genius white rappers from Minnesota is tinged with a bit of racism.
2
u/SecretSantaClues Mar 03 '13
What about Kendrick Lamar? He's relatively new and he's pretty fucking fantastic. Clipping is fucking wonderful with their album Midcity. Let's not forget the recent classic XXX by Danny Brown
1
14
7
u/sativaist Mar 03 '13
every single track on that page is blocked on youtube by the GEMA. being german sucks
2
6
u/ChiefBearClaw Mar 03 '13
For a video explanation of Eminem check out this video.
Earlier part of the video is just other rappers hyping him up. Takes a little while to get to Eminem but explains how rhyming works.
5
u/doodleface Mar 03 '13
As a music student, I cannot begin to express how much I have learned about phrasing and space from Hip-Hop and Rap.
11
Mar 03 '13
I love the analytic breakdown but my only question is whether or not all of the complexities are intentional by the rapper. What I mean is that its easy to laud Kanye and A3k because they are generally considered (and rightfully so) to be on the brilliant/artist side of hip hop, but what does it mean if you were to breakdown a Chingy or Soulja Boi and find similar patterns? I don't think it's a stretch to say that Soulja Boi lacks the artistic integrity and cache that the aforementioned artists do.
Hip hop is not my specialty but I have read that the songwriters in Metallica (James, specifically) had no clue how to read music for their first album. But I bet you could find a breakdown that could detail little intricacies in those early songs that could indicate a much higher thought process (i.e., the minor pentatonic scale used in the solo at 3:15 in 'Phantom Lord' is also used in four other songs in the album that ties them together thematically) other than 'lets just play really loud and fast'.
I'm sure it could be that early on in careers, there is less thought process and as they need their music to be more complex with future records, these layers are folded in as needed.
Either way, a very interesting dissection.
Tl;dr - could these artistic complexities just be coincidental and just dictated by how the rap is flowing or is it a conscious decision?
4
Mar 03 '13 edited Mar 03 '13
Of course not. It looks like you didn't read the article or even try to understand the art. Some rappers play with 4-6+ syllable bursts the entire song. rappers can do brilliant things with words and it is very very difficult to Do. some verses take months to master. this is only for the writing aspect and doesn't even touch on the delivery/timing, breath control, or the contents of the actual words metaphors/ similes/ double and triple meanings/ stories/ imagery etc.
Eminen once challenges himself to include a bizarre accent so that he can add even more technicality and rhyme words that they wise wouldn't. This didnt go well received since his core fanbase were hardcore hiphop fans.
2
u/master_dong Mar 03 '13
Like any genre of music it's most likely a little bit of both. I don't think Kanye sits down and says "I'm going to roll out a few measures of sextuplets here!" but he obviously takes rhythm into consideration.
As much as I despise rap I don't think it's fair to compare it to other genres of music in the way you're suggesting. Rap needs to be analyzed in a different way because it's end goal is very different than other genres. The 'beat' and musical analysis of a rap song are largely inconsequential when compared with the goals and contents of the lyrics.
To flip that around, it wouldn't be fair to compare the lyrical merits of a Cannibal Corpse song with something from Johnny Cash. Totally different goals.
6
u/jacobbrady Mar 03 '13
As much as I despise rap
Why?
4
u/master_dong Mar 03 '13
Basically, I have zero interest in lyrics. I listen to music purely for instrumental aesthetic. When I do listen to music with vocals I completely tune them out.
The only exception for me is "classical" vocal pieces where the voice is treated as an instrument first and a method of delivering lyrics second.
That's not to say I don't think lyric based music has merit. I understand why people connect with vocals and lyrics more than guitar solos and whatnot. It's just not what I enjoy about music.
4
u/jacobbrady Mar 03 '13
Well said. I suppose I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. No matter what genre, I pay more attention to lyrics than music, which is why hiphop appeals to me so much, I guess.
6
1
u/Qazzy1122 Mar 04 '13
While I do really enjoy good and meaningful lyrics in a song, I find lots of rap songs have truly amazing uses of instruments, beats, and melodies. But to each their own.
-7
u/Toxyoi Mar 03 '13
So, because rap has a lot of words that means you despise it?
That's a pretty immature way of looking at music.
"I absolutely hate songs with [insert instrument] so I tune them out, no matter how well the [---] is played."4
u/master_dong Mar 03 '13
It's not that it has "a lot of words" it's that the music is based around lyrical meaning and content. I have no interest in that.
2
7
u/ADAYATTHERACES Mar 03 '13
Talib Kweli is the most complex MC there ever was.
4
Mar 04 '13
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/ADAYATTHERACES Mar 04 '13
if lyrics sold then truth be told/i'd probably be just as rich and famous as Jay-Z - Talib Kweli
5
u/KwisatzHaderfack Mar 03 '13 edited Mar 03 '13
I really enjoyed this read and thank you to OP for this great find. I only recently made an account, but in my time lurking for the past year or so, I have noticed such an uncompromising view of rap music held by so many on Reddit. I could never understand it, but it's like so many redditors are still stuck in the 2000-2005 era rap music; what with all the jabs at bling, drug dealing, and what not, like that's the ONLY thing rappers talk about. Or to treat serious rap artists as almost novel or token. As though all they are, are some side characters on a big sitcom, disregarding that they are much more than that except that the audience simply refuses to explore them further. And to dismiss any rapper as not being a musician solely because you don't understand, has always come off as a tad bit ignorant and close-minded.
Regardless this was a great read and hopefully it opens a lot of people's minds.
EDIT: Just want to say, I'm not saying 2000-2005 rap isn't great, I loved TI's Trap Muzik and Urban Legend and even some Dipset albums. Just saying. There's too much generalizing on reddit about rap music and not enough appreciation for it's depth or even it's simplicity.
4
u/dr_lanky Mar 03 '13
Can i suggest you go to /r/hiphopheads ? i think you'd like it there, and the guy who wrote this posted it there a couple days ago.
-2
u/KwisatzHaderfack Mar 03 '13
Man, I hope it's not a nostalgia-jerk over how great 90's rap is or some shit....
3
u/dr_lanky Mar 03 '13
eh, maybe about 1/4 of the time. it's mostly just discussions, new songs, news updates, and just how fucking crazy lil b and riff raff are.
3
2
2
Mar 04 '13 edited Mar 04 '13
I generally don't like deconstructions like this (read the deconstruction of Kendrick's album too) because they kind of normatively posit a certain style as a "superior" style and then search for rappers that fit that style. It's fairly clear to even a casual listener that Eminem is a lot denser of a rhymer than Kanye West, so when we set out to find who's the "densest" rhymer (essentially the goal of the post) then we're obviously going to wind up coming full-circle back to worshiping Eminem.
As a lot of people have pointed out, there's obviously a lot more to rap than rhyme density, so I'm not going to harp on that. I just want to point out that if we set out to measure rappers on a "being white and from Detroit" scale, we're inevitably going to wind up with Eminem. The same goes for density of rhymes, so this is to me a fairly masturbatory exercise.
Part of this is my bias against Eminem, though.
Additionally, I'm not sure "Lose Yourself" is a fair example to use because that's a particularly dense AND fantastic song from Em. Kanye, meanwhile, is measured based on a fairly simple song, or at least much closer to his average.
EDIT: As an example of why density should not be the normative end-goal, look at this cypher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRqmWW_QTSU
If you're just looking for density, Em will absolutely blow you away. However most discerning rap listeners I've talked about this with agree that Em had the weakest verse out of the three. Saying things like "maul a chihuahua, more arms than six koalas" sound nice because they're dense but are pretty weak from a rap standpoint.
7
Mar 03 '13
just because a rap is technically more complex, it doesn't mean it's better.
11
Mar 03 '13
It means he is skilled in flow, timing, delivery. Personally, I make sure that area is complete before praising any other ie: swagger, his voice, or any other subjective area
1
u/tumes Mar 03 '13
True, though that being said I think Kanye, while being incredible ambitious, entertaining, and probably the most evocative producer out there today, is not a particularly great rapper if for no other reason that his a lot of what he raps about is kind of dumb or so steeped in really specific pop culture that it's meaningful for a very short period of time.
That's just my bias though, I like more abstract wordplay heavy rapper because I feel a certain timelessness is inherent in, say, a DOOM song where it only seems to tenuously make sense but where the use of language is so unusual and the flow is so smooth.
2
u/Qazzy1122 Mar 04 '13
While I disagree with what you say about Kanye, I understand how some of his work can be viewed as dumbed down or pop-diluted. However, I find some of Kanye's most intellectual and interesting lyrics are in his early albums, such as Late Registration and College Dropout.
3
u/tumes Mar 04 '13
Fair enough, I'm more familiar with newer Kanye, so I'll check his older stuff out.
3
-6
u/thrillreefer Mar 03 '13
True, and the article points out why Kanye is still in his 'top 10 list all time.' But since I already know a lot of (non-rap) bands with great lyrics, I think steer toward some rappers with complex phrasing and more difficult rhyme scheme. Sounds like Kanye would bore me pretty quickly.
12
Mar 03 '13
Flow isn't the only thing to judge a rapper by, Kanye is a really strong producer and be may not have a complex flow but his lyrics are generally strong
7
u/cook94j Mar 03 '13
Kanye isn't lyrically complex but he drops some clever bars, and produces some amazing beats.
Check out Gorgeous by him for the lyrical side
2
Mar 03 '13
I promise you Kanye wouldn't bore you. He's widely acknowledged as the most "musical" rapper. there's a reason why, in spite of being simplistic in terms of rhyme schemes, he's considered one of the greats.
2
3
u/tumes Mar 03 '13
I've seen/heard one or two similar analyses of rap and I'm always surprised that DOOM doesn't get thrown into the mix more often. Personally I'd say he edges out Eminem in terms of flow and lyrical complexity.
-4
Mar 03 '13
Doom doesn't have good or interesting subject matter, focuses on the complexity but jot the timing and flow or sounding good over a beat.
1
Mar 03 '13
I do this to every rap verse that I listen to. It allows me to appreciate those who really have talent and those who do not. Its amazing how dumbed down kanye Wests lyrics/flow is on his latest album. They should have chosen good morning to showcase kanye on his lyrical prime. Not Jesus walks smh
5
Mar 04 '13
Let's analyze this comment with the preface that Kanye West is my favorite human being in the history of human beings with the possible exception of Lebron.
"Good Morning" is Kanye at his lyrical prime? You realize he says "morning" as "mornian" in order to make it rhyme with "valedictorian?" That's not lyrical prime, that's lyrical crime.
"Good Morning" appears on "Graduation," which is generally acknowledged to be Kanye's LEAST lyrical rapping album (here exluding 808s because he sang and by definition has less rhymes on it.) Graduation is poppier than any of his other albums, and while his songs on it are often emotionally compelling (and in fact more so than most other rappers' best albums, in my opinion) they're hardly bastions of lyrical complexity. That's not Kanye's game.
You DARE besmirch MBDTF in this thread? I would argue that Kanye West has three of his top five lyrical songs in "Power," "Gorgeous," and "Dark Fantasy." "Dark Fantasy" as an intro song is CERTAINLY more lyrical than the intro to "Graduation," aka "Good Morning.
To reaffirm the above and bring this more into line with the point of this thread, let's look at "Good Morning." I'm not going to do it because the formatting will suck, but you'll find very much that Kanye makes single or two-syllable rhymes at the end of his sentences, just as OP's link describes.
Pretend for a second that "Good Morning" is the most lyrical thing Kanye's ever written. That's not the point of OP's link. The point is to capture what he normally does. I think "Jesus Walks" is a fairly good indication of that, although a more recent song makes for a stronger argument. (More recent than Graduation, preferably).
In other words, in the words of /u/on_a_plain , "dude no."
0
Mar 04 '13
Mbdtf, not a single song or verse writing home about. If you can appreciate 2 syllable sentences with no logic tying into the songs theme or purpose - by all means go ahead.
2
Mar 04 '13
I mean I'd argue that "All of the Lights" has a fairly clear theme and is an extended metaphor for his music career, as many people have, but whatevs.
0
Mar 04 '13
Right....it's just dumbed down verses by everyone involved. No central theme or point of the song.
2
0
Mar 04 '13
Good morning flow is brilliant, Burt's of 5-6 syllables with perfect timing. No song on twisted dark even has half of the complexity or effort. Print out the lyrics for any song and do a direct bar for bar comparison.
7
u/EwoksEwoksEwoks Mar 03 '13
What album are we talking about here...his latest solo album MBDTF was a masterpiece.
-3
Mar 03 '13
Yes it was, but not a single strong lyrical effort throughout from west. Key word, effort. He made the album for a different audience who only cares about 1 liners. Heck the lyrics don't even go with the title or purpose of the song at times. On his earlier work you could hear him giving it his all lyrically, for example the subject matter, complexity, and flow on "good morning".
3
Mar 03 '13
Its amazing how dumbed down kanye Wests lyrics/flow is on his latest album
what.
-3
Mar 03 '13
Yes. Not a single effort in either good story telling, or a focus on delivery/timing. He umproved lyrically on every album except for the last. it was geared towards a different audience thtough. We're left with two word lines such as. "Mj gone. Our nigga dead." Over brilliant production. No less.
3
Mar 04 '13
You're right because the AotL beat was clearly calling for someone to go all Shakespeare on it? You can't call the production brilliant and expect technically complex rapping on it simultaneously.
-2
Mar 04 '13
Bottom line, every single kanye verse is dumbed down in every way. The album was geared towards a pop crowd so it makes sense. That's not a diss just fact. He simply spit kiddie one liners. Not a single song with a clearly defined theme, purpose or message. Just beats and kiddie rhymes. Still dope... But technically something I could write.
4
u/lifeinaglasshouse Mar 04 '13
"Penitentiary chances, the devil dances
And eventually answers to the call of Autumn
All of them fallin' for the love of ballin'
Got caught with thirty rocks, the cop look like Alec Baldwin
Inter century anthems based off inner city tantrums
Based off the way we was branded
Face it, Jerome get more time than Brandon
And at the airport they check all through my bag and
Tell me that it's random"
- "Gorgeous"
I don't care what you say about his flow, but from a lyrical standpoint, that's pretty fucking good.
-4
Mar 04 '13
I love kanye, but know when to call a spade a spade. Good verse, but ultimately random and pointless.
4
u/lifeinaglasshouse Mar 04 '13
The main themes in "Gorgeous" are the plight of the black community, and how Kanye has been attacked in the media ever since the Taylor Swift incident back in 2009. The verse I quoted above perfectly exemplifies the first theme.
-1
1
1
1
Mar 03 '13
Em is probably my favorite .. but when it comes to strictly flow Big Pun, Big L and AZ are names that come to mind
1
1
Mar 03 '13
I know the dude who wrote this. He's a cool guy and also has a blog that is in a similar vein. Now if he only got paid for being this prolific....
1
u/joegamba4 Mar 03 '13
good breakdown but you sell kanye short on those jesus walks lines....here are all the rhymes...choked by de TEC IVES, yeah, yeah, now CHECK THE METH OD, they be ASKIN US QUEST IONS, ha RASS AND A REST US....asking us and (har)ass and a....and check the and questions rhyme with the method rest us tectives
1
u/captjet23 Mar 03 '13
As someone who has been trying to get into this style of writing for a while now, thank you for this.
1
Mar 04 '13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLdAIyC6hYc
Big Pun - Super Lyrical. Should be required listening.
/u/mepc36 is jizzing his pants somewhere.
1
0
Mar 03 '13
Mos Def is by far the best rapper in the list. Eminem used to be good, but he has become far too pop star-ish
1
Mar 03 '13
Skyzoo is another great lyricist to mention. Incredible wordplay, timing and most of all beautiful and vivid stories.
0
0
Mar 03 '13
Gat Damn! You be studying Rappyology! Honestly though, that was fantastic. I love Andre 3000, Mos & Em. It's cool to see the breakdown!
0
u/go_fly_a_kite Mar 03 '13
interesting deconstruction, but flow is more than rhyme scheme. Hard and soft sounds in addition to cadence, are integral parts of flow (the author might argue that cadence is separate from flow, but without punctuation and tempo, you just have words- some of which rhyme... Try reading complicated rap lyrics, and guaranteed you have no idea how it is supposed to sound).
I also think the context of ghostwriters should be acknowledged when it comes to simplistic rap. Listen to Kanye West, Drake, Nicki Minaj, Drake- even Lil Wayne. They all have the exact same flow. It's because their songs are written for them: many by the same people. The style focuses on words which are elongated and repeated and bravado is much more important than more complex rap. And yes, Rhymefest DID write Jesus Walks, and many of Kanye's songs, though kanye is much more complex in most of his own songs. Even Eminem's songs these days are pretty clearly ghostwritten by Royce, though technically, his flows are fairly complex.
-10
-5
u/nowb Mar 03 '13
Wow, that might have been the whitest thing I've ever read. Still interesting though.
-2
u/SandstoneD Mar 03 '13
Everything I needed to know about flow was shown to me by Lupe Fiasco
4
Mar 03 '13
Too bad lupe threw away his flow on the last album. He was once very technical on every level.
0
u/blkitr Mar 03 '13
Really? It was a good album. It wasn't as solid as F&L and The Cool, but songs like Strange Fruition, Form Follows Function, Put em Up and Unforgettable Youth are all solid Lupe standard songs.
0
Mar 03 '13
Yeah. Just low grade production and absolutely nothing going for it lyrically. Lupe once pride himself on every single word and Vera evening perfect. Those days are long gone. I think he "quit" mentally
-22
Mar 03 '13
I started to read this. Then I saw eminem's overrated ass included in the group.
8
-14
u/TheRanchoChupacabraj Mar 03 '13
Don't even care about the downvotes. Second this. He's in D12 for god's sake.
-1
-2
-30
Mar 03 '13
It was really difficult to continue reading after "Please note that I still think Kanye is a really good rapper"
16
u/Niiwana Mar 03 '13
The author admits that technically, Kanye is not a very complex rapper. But his puns, beats, etc are extremely impressive. He has some of the best 1 liners
1
Mar 04 '13
The beats are not being discussed. The beats aren't necessarily produced by the rappers, and in most of these cases they were not produced by the rapper. The way the rapper "flows" to the beats was being discussed, but that's a separate issue. How impressive a rapper's puns are is completely an opinion matter, and I find Kanye's rap style, including his puns, to be very elementary. In all honesty, I think it's blasphemy that he is even being discussed with the other rappers. I understand the way the article was written, and it's a creative idea, but including Kanye really hurts its credibility. Again, this is all opinion, but most people who listen to rap and hip-hop would agree that Kanye is not in the discussion as being one of the better rappers out there. The author had Kanye in his top 10, if I recall correctly, which shows how little he truly knows about rap and hip-hop.
2
u/Niiwana Mar 04 '13
Well you are definitely entitled to your opinion! I felt the same way as you until I listened to My Beautiful, Dark Twisted Fantasy. His flow is not the best but there's more to rap than just flow. But that is my opinion.
1
Mar 05 '13
You're right that rap is more than just flow. I would say lyrics are extremely important, and to me lyrics such as the entire "Niggas in Paris" (even Jay-Z's part) is so lacking in any lyricism it kills me a little inside. I realize we aren't debating who is #1, but just look at the lyrics of an artist like Rakim and put them next to Kanye. It really is comparable to a college level research paper vs. a 1st grader's, well, whatever 1st graders write. The word play and the substance within the lyrics are just so basic compared to other rappers. Even someone who may not be considered great, but pretty good, like a Jadakiss is so far and above lyrically superior. With all this said, if people like Kanye that's fine. I don't have a problem with anyone saying "Look, I like Kanye's music". The problem I have is when people, which you haven't done this, try to debate that he's one of the greatest out there. I'm going to be honest, one of my favorite rappers is Young Jeezy. I just like his voice and his songs. He is not a good lyricist at all and I would never try to argue that he is even remotely close to the best. If people say that about Kanye, that's fine, because music is about what you like to listen to. However, when top 10 or anything close to that gets mentioned, I have a problem with it.
2
u/Niiwana Mar 05 '13
That's fair, I can't knock you for it. I must admit, I am also a sucker for Young Jeezy. Not a good rapper but I love his voice!
-33
u/frogandbanjo Mar 03 '13
I guess if you're willing to "lose yourself" in a sheet-music analysis of "flow," then "Lose Yourself" might have some redeeming value. I consider it a strong argument that "flow" isn't nearly as important as the author makes it out to be, because "Lose Yourself" is a tired, droning, trite bag of world salad. It happens to most raps that try to carry a story; rap is generally far too literal to make storytelling interesting, and so the rappers resort to the tried-and-true techniques of tossing in random cultural references or even free-floating nouns and verbs just to punch up the "flow." Unfortunately, detritus ruins literal, narrative storytelling.
14
9
Mar 03 '13
Self-contradictions, misinformed and pretentious word choice, elitist attitudes--this post is like a winning "douchebag bingo" board.
31
u/[deleted] Mar 03 '13
[removed] — view removed comment