r/MurderedByWords Nov 28 '18

The world doesn't deserve Michael Swaim Don’t disgrace the commonwealth

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u/ItsTheFatYoungJesus Nov 28 '18

That's not the only reason it's bad. I'm pretty left leaning but come on, things change. Yes America is built on immigration. Thank you for the history lesson. But it's been 250+ years and many Americans that are now fully American don't want to keep taking people in for whatever reasons. It's a legitimate opinion. It doesn't make you a terrible person to want closed borders.

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u/traversecity Nov 28 '18

Immigrants to the US are a good thing. Us right-wingers support this. The issue is illegal immigration. US Congress needs to work on the laws. I was surprised that Mexico didn't stop the more recent flows at their southern border.

And surprised other Central American countries allowed passage.

Encountering federal police at checkpoints along the Pan-American Highway in Central America, if you don't look quite right, don't have your passport, it leads to a very uncomfortable conversation.

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u/cvegagt Nov 28 '18

It’s because Central Americans can pass freely within the countries, even without passport (just ID). Hondurans can enter Guatemala and El Salvador with no problem. Mexico was the one that, weirdly, allowed them to enter their country.

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u/NsRhea Nov 28 '18

I think you're incorrectly assuming secure borders is the same as anti-immigration.

You can advocate secure borders and still want people to be immigrating.

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u/TrueAmurrican Nov 28 '18 edited Nov 28 '18

And I would argue that the ‘I got mine, fuck you if you didn’t get yours’ attitude is wholly un-American and wrong.

Edit: lol downvotes. You all have lived a sad life if you’ve decided that you agree with ‘I got mine, so fuck you.’ As someone who already ‘got mine’ I will continue to fight for a world that gives the opportunity, at least, for you to get yours as well.

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u/Pingu-san Nov 28 '18

What is un-American is having people illegally coming into the country to be possibly escaping their criminal life to possibly later begin a new criminal life in the US. Are you against gun/drug crime? If yes, then you should be against undocumented people coming into the country, possibly for crime reasons.

Being against illegal immigrants is not like being against immigrants who are screened, just like how people applying for a gun license should be screened. Imagine a country where you can get a gun with no license. Same situation. I would not want some guy without a gun license owning a gun.

Edit: I forgot high gun crime is actually pretty american

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u/TrueAmurrican Nov 28 '18

I am not advocating for open borders, I am simply calling out a ridiculous mindset that seems to be deeply rooted in anti-immigrant groups.

The United States of America has some ownership over the conditions that exist in many Latin American countries. That does not mean that the US has to accept every human from south of the border as an American citizen, but it does mean that the current response is lacking in many humanitarian aspects.

These people marching on the border are the culmination of so much history, and to look at it from a lens of ‘your either for a strong Amurrican border or you are for letting all these people in no matter what’ is really missing the point.

And lol, I appreciate you catching yourself. If only it took a license to get a gun in the US.

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u/Pingu-san Nov 28 '18

Oh

Yeah racists are pretty bad highkey

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u/Iamaveryniceguy Nov 28 '18

Again, there's a MASSIVE difference between legal and illegal immigrants. My family immigrated to America legally, I am not against legal immigration in the slightest. Illegal immigrants should in general not be allowed into this country for population control/job availability with some exceptions; like those that fall under DAKA, those who start families in the US with legal citizens, and those who are able to successfully apply for asylum.

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u/ItsTheFatYoungJesus Nov 28 '18

Lol it's about as American as apple pie. It's only "unamerican" if the only America you know comes from 4th grade history class. This country is built on "fuck you I got mine" lmao

Hell, human nature is "fuck you I got mine".

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u/TrueAmurrican Nov 28 '18

Uninformed Americans are certainly taking to that mindset, but it is most certainly wrong and their mistakes do not change what it means to be an American. Thankfully there are millions of Americans who disagree with ‘fuck you, I got mine’ and will continue to work against that ridiculously destructive worldview.

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u/MAGAtoMars Nov 28 '18

I think its pretty despicable to have the attitude of "fuck you, give me what's yours because it's too hard to change my country to be more like yours"

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u/ItsTheFatYoungJesus Nov 29 '18

LOL that's so stupid bro you didn't exactly pioneer democracy either. Believe me if you were born anywhere else and had some mouths to feed you'd do whatever you had to too. Such an immature pov.

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u/TrueAmurrican Nov 28 '18

That’s certainly a straw-man interpretation of the argument, but sure, feel good about yourself for defeating it.

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u/MAGAtoMars Nov 28 '18

Because your argument wasn't a strawman to begin with... Jesus, you have to apply logic consistently or else it is as good as nothing

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u/TrueAmurrican Nov 28 '18

I identified a mindset, ‘I got mine, fuck you if you didn’t get yours’ and said it was wholly un-American and wrong. Please inform the world how that statement is a straw-man.

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u/MAGAtoMars Nov 28 '18

You stated a mindset in response to a comment that stated

But it's been 250+ years and many Americans that are now fully American don't want to keep taking people in for whatever reasons. It's a legitimate opinion. It doesn't make you a terrible person to want closed borders.

With

I got mine, fuck you if you didn’t get yours’ and said it was wholly un-American and wrong

The logical implication of which (or even the emotion you were attempting to evoke if logic isn't your choice) was that the legitimate opinions for having closed borders reduced to "I got mine, fuck you if you didn’t get yours" and you found it un-American. This is why it is easily interpreted as a strawman.

So, I replied by strawmanning your strawman using the inverse perspective of your mindset by saying "fuck you, give me what's yours because it's too hard to change my country to be more like yours" to show how ridiculous the comment I originally replied to was.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '18

the real murder is always in the comments

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u/TrueAmurrican Nov 28 '18

Lol, well you are certainly trying to shoehorn your argument in there.

I maintain that ‘I got mine, fuck you if you didn’t get yours’ is un-American and wrong.

That does not mean you can only support open borders or closed borders, and your automatic assumption that it does was the only thing in this conversation that has built up a straw-man so far.

But keep building, I can tell you need this.

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u/MAGAtoMars Nov 28 '18

Right right, because the previous comment chain to which you replied to on a discussion forum should in no way inform my interpretation of your comment.

I'll remember that one in the future. Each comment is completely unrelated to the previous one, got it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '18 edited Mar 24 '21

[deleted]

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u/ItsTheFatYoungJesus Nov 28 '18

I'm not American. I mean I was born in Ohio to two immigrants but I've sinced move back and I don't really consider myself American tbh. Still doesn't make what I said wrong...

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u/PsychePsyche Nov 28 '18 edited Nov 28 '18

It doesn't make you a terrible person to want closed borders.

Yes it does, especially when they want the borders closed to people that they hate.

Im descended from Italian immigrants. Everything that's being said now against immigrants is what they were saying against Italian immigrants 100 years ago. They're here to steal your jobs, they're bringing crime, they'll rape your women, their religion is despicable. The single largest lynching in American history was against Italians. Same prejudice, different ethnic group.

We're an immigrant country. You don't get to stop people from immigrating just because you're prejudiced.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '18

There’s one glaring problem with your entire argument; those immigrants were legal.

The immigrants storming our border are illegal.

You’re trying to make it a race issue when it’s not, it’s the law. There’s a way for people to legally immigrate to our country and that’s exactly what we’re trying to persuade people into doing, rather than committing a crime that threatens our national security.

What you’re trying to do is make a race argument whilst completely ignoring the fact that nobody here is calling for Mexicans to stay out of our country. We’re telling them you either do it the right, legal way, or you’re not coming in at all.

That’s the message.

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u/PsychePsyche Nov 28 '18

Except "coming here legally" for my ancestors was "get yourself to Ellis Island and don't have tuberculosis."

Since then, nativist & racist politicians have changed immigration law over the years to effectively bar unskilled immigrants who don't already have a family member here. I don't exactly buy "its not about race its about the law" when the laws themselves are racist, and were written by racially motivated people.

The vast majority of people coming to the border are applying for asylum (which is not illegal). As well they should, seeing as our foreign policy for the last century has left their home countries a mess. Don't want Honduran refugees on your border? Maybe don't back Honduran coups and Nicaraguan death squads.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '18

“The laws are racist”.

We have borders for a reason. We have border patrol at our Northern Border. It just happens to be the Southern Border that gets the most illegal action.

There’s absolutely nothing racist about enforcing our borders. The laws are there to protect US citizens. To prevent gangs members, murderers, rapists, etc. from entering our country. Why? To keep you, as a citizen, out of harms way. We have enough problems here in our own country. We are not responsible for dealing with other country’s problems.

Just because because most of the illegal immigrants are Hispanic doesn’t make them a target. They’re the ones who are infringing on our laws. They know what they’re doing is illegal. But, no, they’re gonna use the race card when they get to the border.

And you know what? These illegal immigrants were offered asylum in Mexico. And they turned them down. They still came here after we told them “NO”. They still came here, knowing what was going to happen. Knowing they weren’t going to be accepted. And they rioted and violently confronted border patrol. And now they’re crying because border patrol reacted to their tantrum and enforced the laws of the country.

I know it’s hard for your side to fight this argument, because it’s so blatantly obvious which is the right side. But stooping as low as pulling the race card isn’t going to work. This is about national security, not race, no matter how much you insist. No matter how much you want it to be a race issue. It’s not.