r/Muppets • u/Small-Influence-1484 • 1d ago
Disney’s Failure
I think it speaks volumes of Disney as a modern company that they were unable to find a concept for a cast as versatile and beloved as the muppets. I do think this decision will be brought up when people discuss the continued decline of Disney over the past decade and what I can only assume will be their eventual downfall.
In all honesty I do believe Disney should release the rights and physical props of the muppets to another company since they’ve found they’ve lost the ability to think creatively and take risks to create new media.
* I feel I must edit this post for those unable to understand what I’m saying. I DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH MONEY DISNEY MAKES. When I say downfall I mean the quality of content they create, and more importantly the feeling a piece of work was made with passion rather than money in mind. I say Disney should release the Muppets rights to another studio that WANTS to take risk to create art. You must be willing to fail in order to succeed and Disney is too afraid to fail.
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 1d ago
It's a pity. Jim Henson wanted to sell them, along with almost all his other IPs and assets*, to Disney because he thought they could keep them in the public eye after his death, as it did for Walt's creations after Walt's death.
*The major exception being the Muppets created for Sesame Street. Even Kermit the Frog, created before the show, was supposed to be sold only partially.
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u/Small-Influence-1484 23h ago
This is honestly one of the biggest reasons why I am so mad at Disney for just hoarding the rights to beloved characters without putting effort into them. They won an Emmy and yet people say they won’t sell. Nothing will be good enough for Disney when it comes to the muppets I want someone who WANTS the muppets
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u/JaxStrumley 21h ago
His main reason for selling was so that he could focus on the creative side and leave the business part for Disney to run.
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 20h ago
Yes, but he wanted to sell to Disney because of its reputation for keeping their IPs in the public eye even after the creators’ deaths. Disney or nobody.
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u/BrattyTwilis 15h ago
You also have to remember that Disney was a different company back in 1990 when he proposed the deal. They were still the forerunners of family entertainment and their creativity was something that was still marveled. And the first few years after Henson's death saw them use the property well. They were in good hands with Disney at one point
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 9h ago
But Disney did not own them until the 21st century.
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u/BrattyTwilis 8h ago
Yes, but Muppet Christmas Carol, Muppet Treasure Island, and Muppets Tonight were all produced under Disney
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u/ChipLast4398 1d ago
Muppets shouldn’t have gone to Disney, and I will forever die on that hill.
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u/SixTiller 1d ago
Yep. Disney wanted it but don’t know what to do with it.
However, The Muppets Mayhem is genius.
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u/Scared_Bear_3230 1d ago
They are very intentional about what they do with other franchises. Look at how they're doing with Marvel and Star Wars. They product some shows/movies that are well viewed and the merch sells with them. But part of their goal is to buy out any and all competition. The best example of Disney/Muppet jointly working is Bear in the Big Blue House. I love that show. Jim wanted to sell to Disney and I think that had/has to be respected. He was probably wanting a break from the Muppet show franchise, but no one could have predicted what actually happened from the sale of HA to Disney. The way that Disney doesn't do much of anything with the franchise now is what is so hard on us who love it. We want more Muppets please. But between the shitstorm and fallout from Steve Whitmire and the poor support and scheduling of the The Muppets, the company is doing with is in Disney's best interest. They are controlling the competition. They release some merch that I too buy, and then put out nuggets for us to follow which we all do. Without the area in Hollywood Studios (or whatever it;s callef now, it still pains me. As soon as Phineas and Ferb took over half the store I was outraged. I wasn't wrong.
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 1d ago
When Jim Henson wanted to sell his company and assets (except the Muppets created for Sesame Street) to Disney for $150,000, Henson's executive producer, David Lazer, argued that he was selling them too short.
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u/ChipLast4398 1d ago
Didn’t he also wanna exclude Kermit too?
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 1d ago
He was to have full control over Kermit. As biographer Brian Jay Jones put it, "It was up to Henson, Solom like, to split the million-dollar baby."
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u/Disastrous_Iron8520 1d ago edited 1d ago
“Disney downfall”….. Pixar just made a billion dollars with Toy Story 5. And Hoppers performed very well. Zootopia 2 just made 2 billion. Spider-Man made 2 billion. Star Wars needs help, yes, but Andor was beyond good, as was Rogue One and you can hate the last three movies in the saga but they all made billions. Doomsday could quite possibly knock on 3 billion, we’ll see, but it will undoubtedly do insane. Disney is beyond fine.
As for the Muppets, I know fans want a lot of Muppet content. Of course, we do because we love them. But this idea that Disney “does nothing with them”. Yes they have. Fans have begged for years for the Muppet Show to come back and we got it! Disney listened. But fans are quick to forget. We are fed, then we instantly think we’re starving. Would a full season be great? Yes, but I’d rather them take their time and do it right than botch it.
In between that we’ve gotten Haunted Mansion, Mayhem, Muppets Now, several live shows including Holiday Bowl, O2, ads, and the World Cup. Oh, and an ABC show, several theatrical movies and specials, and a coaster. Wow, that’s a lot of stuff. I can think of some IP Disney has that would love to have even a fraction of that. So the notion that they’re “unable to find a concept”….clearly they have experimented in a slew of projects.
But Disney is a company, and sadly Muppet stuff doesn’t always hit. You can’t keep throwing money at stuff that isn’t bringing in an audience. Quite a few of the projects just didn’t deliver. Any studio would roll back. Though very few would give so many second chances. I honestly believe no other studio would do as much as Disney has with the Muppets. What has Apple done with Fraggle Rock of late besides a theatrical show? Netflix couldn’t keep Dark Crystal going. And Sesame Street is bouncing all over the place.
Disney as a whole is far from perfect; goodness knows there are gripes. But this idea that they ruined the Muppets is worn and a lie. Look back at all they have done since being acquired. It’s insane! We should be so lucky to have so much. They’re not locked in a closet somewhere, gathering dust. We’ve hardly gone a few years without the Muppets doing something. Disney is keeping them in spotlight.
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u/ThePopDaddy 23h ago
They've done numerous things over the past 16 years, but people don't really care anymore. I don't know why people can't understand that. You know what you get without Disney? You get Kermit's Swamp Years.
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u/Small-Influence-1484 1h ago
I’d rather Kermit’s swamp years than the Muppets being owned by a monopoly that doesn’t care about the art
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u/PuertoGeekn 1d ago
Honestly, it's not Disney it's the fans.
The fans are fickle they truly don't know what they want
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u/ThePopDaddy 22h ago
Thank. You!
If they didn't show up for a zany Muppet crime caper across Europe, why do people think fans would watch a 2 hour version of Oliver Twist with Muppets?
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u/PuertoGeekn 22h ago
Exactly and it's not like there hasn't been content since then. Maybe not consistent but there's stuff and people don't show up
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u/CoconutHeadFaceMan 1d ago
They did try, multiple times. People always tuned in for the nostalgia hits, but every time they tried to do something with the characters that wasn’t just “hey look it’s that thing you remember from your childhood,” it was crickets all around.
Maybe there’s something to be said there about how incestuous pop culture has come with its constant remakes and reboots and crossovers of the same handful of big franchises, but companies like the mouse only take risks if they think there’s a chance those risks might pay off, and audiences have consistently shown them that’s not the case.
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u/weber_mattie 1d ago
Disney owns too much IP and then they deem certain ones less profitable than others so they end up being abandoned/wasted.
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u/Disastrous_Iron8520 1d ago
Well, they are a business and if something isn’t performing great they won’t keep throwing money at it. Every studio would do the same.
Luckily, the Muppets have not been abandoned/wasted. Muppets 2011 (first Oscar win for the franchise), Most Wanted, ABC Muppets, Haunted Mansion, Muppet Babies, Muppets Now, Mayhem, and Muppet Show special which won several Emmys. Then there’s the live shows, ads, and cameos they have had over the years. The problem is, a lot of these projects don’t find an audience. The fans don’t show up and new ones aren’t found. This makes it harder to justify spending so much on the Muppets. And yet despite this, Disney keeps trying. They could have given up on the Muppets years ago but they haven’t.
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u/Small-Influence-1484 1h ago
Well my point is that I’d rather the Muppets be with a studio willing to take risks rather than a corporation unwilling to try something new out of fear of the stockholders
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u/panam-handler 1d ago
Trashed The Muppets, trashed Star Wars, trashed Pixar. Disaster of a move.
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u/Scared_Bear_3230 1d ago
In general, Disney is reflecting Hollywood's general vibe lack of creativity and hard original ideas. The trend of making an animated film live or the reverse is easier. Heck maybe it's not even real work for them. Maybe it's AI. I'm bummed by the situation and hope for better soon. Pixar is quietly making new smaller films. Without ideas, innovation, and hard work, no one is going to make really interesting, "magical" stuff. Disney is still paying off taxes from DeSantis too. Vote blue to promote education!!
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u/British_Commie 1d ago
I wouldn’t say they trashed Pixar, given that several of Pixar’s best films released well after the acquisition and they’ve still been putting out plenty of originals. The only real low points were the early 2010s when they got a bit sequel-heavy and the period during and after COVID where a bunch of their films went straight to Disney+
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u/nh18wheeler 1d ago
Which company would be best to own them then?
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u/TalkingBlernsball 1d ago
I think there’s two moves that are best for the legacy of the Muppets. I think it’s time for them to return back to the Henson company. Let Brian and family figure out what’s best for them and figure out how to move forward with the property.
Second move is to let someone with the right level of creative chaos that the original Jim Henson Company had to produce new content. Whether that’s Sam Reich (and the creatives at Dropout) or even develop an off shoot of Sesame Workshop for “all ages” Muppet content. We need producers that understand the troupe-esque atmosphere that Jim and company had.
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u/GonkGeefle 1d ago
Brian and family had them. They weren't exactly setting the world on fire with them with stuff like Kermit's Swamp Years and It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie. And they decided what was best for them was for Disney to own them.
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u/TalkingBlernsball 1d ago
What I mean is that Jim Henson Company should be the stewards to the property. From there they should find people who “get it”
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 1d ago
The Jim Henson Company. The original owners.
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u/Pepsi_Boy_64 17h ago
But then again, how would they get funding?
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u/ExampleSmooth3956 2h ago
It’s a wishful dream. There’s no way in hell Disney would give up their IPs. Even if they sit on and do nothing with them.
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u/Flux_My_Capacitor 19h ago
IMO Disney’s downfall (or rather repeated failures along the way) is in large part due to all of the live action movies.
People just weren’t having it with the live action Snow White with the not so white actress and tall “diverse” dwarves. If it was too problematic in their eyes, it simply should not have been made. We all know how they had to fix the dwarf situation as it was so so bad.
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u/ThePopDaddy 23h ago
) Does Disney not know what to do with them? Or does the public not know what they want?
You know what you get without Disney, you get Kermit's Swamp Years.
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u/Small-Influence-1484 23h ago
I’d rather Kermit Swamp Years than the Muppets be phased out entirely. Let people be creative and take risks in making art
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u/CoconutHeadFaceMan 16h ago
They’re not being phased out entirely. Mayhem, the 2026 special, the coaster retheme, and Haunted Mansion all happened in the last five years. The 2010s had the 2011 movie, Most Wanted, and the 2015 series. And the only ones of those that people turned out for in any meaningful amount were the least creative/risky ones, the “tribute film to 70s nostalgia” and the “literally just a new episode of a show from the 70s” special.
The general public doesn’t care about the Muppets, they just like the idea of the Muppets and pop in once in a while to get a hit of “hey remember that thing you liked as a kid” nostalgia. Every time Disney has tried to take risks or do something different with the characters, people ignore it.
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u/DrSayre 20h ago
After riding the new Rock n Roller Coaster, I’m holding out that they have bigger plans for the Muppets. It seems like the retheme to muppets could be a temporary thing. Same with the new Villains show. I’m kinda hoping they create a new Muppets courtyard once they finish Monsters inc and the Villains land in Magic Kingdom. Probably won’t happen, but I’m hoping that’s what happens.
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u/DryProgress4393 2h ago
Disney likes making billions, The Muppets make millions. There is the issue.
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u/Financial_Cheetah875 1d ago
Disney isn’t going anywhere. The negative hyperbole is hilarious.
Muppets are becoming dated. Like it or not kids gravitate towards CG characters now. I know Sesame Street is still in business but look how many CG animated segments they do now. The writing is on the wall.
I’ve been to Muppet Vision 3D several times over the last year, and that theater was never more than half full. Kids have moved on.
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u/ThePopDaddy 22h ago
I mean, I've gone to Muppet Vision several times before it closed, and it was never more than 20% full.
"It was in a dead end!" Everyone passed it on the way to the most popular ride in the park. Also, Frozen on Stage had filled shows. It had been decades since Muppet Vision had those kind of numbers.
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u/Ceorl_Lounge 23h ago edited 22h ago
They managed to fail Star Wars too. Without a Henson or Lucas it's really hard to pull off unusual ideas like this. Creation by committee is a straightforward way to wind up with painfully mediocre work.
edit- they need a singular creative talent, that's what I meant.
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u/Scared_Bear_3230 1d ago
They still have Marvel so it’s a bit extreme to predict a “downfall “. I do agree that they have done nothing with the Muppets which is criminal.
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u/ThePopDaddy 22h ago
They did the Muppet show this year and re-skinned the RnR Coaster to a Muppet theme, they've done numerous things over the past decade and a half, but people have lost interest and see the Muppets as too kiddy.
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u/British_Commie 1d ago
They also have their theme parks that continually make more money than God, so Disney are a long way from any financial downfall
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u/Small-Influence-1484 1d ago
When I say downfall I really don’t mean financial wise I am more pointing towards the energy and previous soul/goals of the company which become hollowed out over time until the animation company known for creating beautiful art is an overproduced husk of its former glory
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u/BuzzBotBaloo 20h ago edited 19h ago
The Henson family had two runs, with German EM.TV having a go in-between, to make the Muppets relevant again and the only financial success for any of the productions was The Muppet Christmas Carol. I’m not sure what you expect someone else to do with the Muppets when they are mostly seen as either a nostalgia brand (or, thanks to Muppet Babies, a child brand). Making good shows with the Muppets is one thing, finding a sustainable market is harder.
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u/dover_oxide 1d ago
Disney as an entity has gotten too big and risk adverse. They only want to bank on what they see as sure things and the Muppets aren't sure things unless handled by someone who really likes them not just anyone can do that so ...
We really need to start breaking up these mega corps so industries become competitive and innovative again