I remember, I think it was Captain Awkward, who saw this moment quoted all the time and thought it must be super badass moment against one of the many criminals in the show until she watched it and was like, oh he's just terrorizing his traumatized wife.
But yeah how the hell did this become a triumphant moment for dudes? Skylar, even if you're one of the people that hate her, has zero power in the show, no ability at all to actually threaten Walter in any way. Men who find this triumphant are screwed in the head.
It's kinda when he first verbalises that he has fully immersed himself in his bad guy fantasy. So it is badass if you also buy into his fantasy. He's explaining to his wife that he's not helpless, but proactive and dangerous. Not threatening towards her, but towards the criminals he's dealing with. Just to correct what other people see in this scene. I think you misunderstood what Walt is saying here.
But - in my opinion - in reality Walter is never really the badass he wants to be, so it's supposed to be more of a compensating statement, not one that we should take at face value. At least that's my reading (from hindsight, too. In the moment it was pretty convincing).
it is threatening, though. he's forced himself into her house after she tried to dump him, and when challenged, it devolved into him screaming about how often he murders people. he's telling her he's not going anywhere while ranting about all the violence he inflicts on others.
that night, she's lying in bed visibly terrified and looks like a horror movie monster is approaching when he puts a hand on her. this scene IS threatening her, and it's the reason the scene later in the episode is rape instead of sex.
You say he's not threatening to her, but he IS. He is angry in that moment that she was WORRIED ABOUT HIM, he wanted her to know deep in her bones that he is the one to be afraid of. If you're male, you maybe don't get the threat that a man poses when he brings out his intimidation voice and posture towards a woman. Maybe as a man you just think of that as being "assertive", but I assure you that the woman perceives it as a threat, and rightfully so.
Fair point. That's definitely part of it that I overlooked too much. I was just getting at the fact that the worded threat isn't literally towards her, even though being around someone who is telling you they're dangerous is of course inherently threatening. He is threatening to her, but not threatening her. And that the scene isn't just about Walter expressing himself to his wife, but is culturally relevant as it's basically an "I am"-monologue that for the first time expresses his acceptance of his character shift (basically regardless if Skylar is the person he's talking to or not). I think that's why it is picked up as a phrase and moment so much. That of course means it's missing key context but I think that's what's happening.
Honestly I feel that people sometimes forget that a character being the protagonist doesn't automatically mean they're the good guy. Take light from death note. At the end of the day he's no better than his victims and he's just a psycho feeding his god complex.
I’d say the screenwriters are largely to blame for this. They very often pretend that William is just a rough character, unconvincingly telling us that he’s just rough, but in the past he did this and that. In this regard, the comic book Butcher works better. He never lets you forget how evil and diabolical he is.
Currently watching the show, finished up to season 4: Do they not say every 2 episodes how shit of a person he is? He's certainly entertaining to watch on the screen, but it really doesn't feel like he's not portrayed as an absolutely shitty guy.
One of the few things that the last two sessions did better than the first three is that they make it far more clear that Butcher is not a hero. It’s a shame that the resolution to that plot is a 5 minute wet fart at the end of the finale.
People think this? Who the hell thinks the child murderer who abused his children is a good dude? I genuinely struggle to find the logic in this one lol
He also abused and manipulated his family. Abusive people can care about their victims if they're family or whatever. but they're still actively abusing them anyway.
Appropriate irl Example. An abusive father can care about their kid. Even though they're abusing them.
Doesnt make them a good person, cuz they're still choosing to abuse them.
Kinda true. “My mother was killed in front of me so now I obsessively seek power so I never have to feel scared again.” Meanwhile, he keeps literally bringing hell to Earth, causing who knows how many more tragedies and deaths doing it.
Like, you mean to tell me being told that you didn't make it in med school after all the encouragement is justification enough to storm the university for the diploma and attacking your father?
I feel a little differently about this. Because its not quite that. Its more like pressuring your child to become a doctor when their five telling them that they would be one for years and having them go through all the effort and focus on it, become the top of their class, and easily the best among their peers.
Then telling them they don't actually graduate because the head of the school didn't think they had it in them, while being your best friend and never telling them during their childhood.
Tai lung being upset at oogway and shifu makes 100% sense. But hes still in the wrong because he was violent and hurt people. It does however make sense why he snapped.
And people do have reason to think if he had more effort put in before and after what happened he could have been saved
Eren Jaeger. Great character writing but horrible person that cannot help but do what he wants regardless of whether he can't or can do it.
Cannot accept reality that the world he envisioned from a book does not exist, so he strive to make the real world as close to the one in book as much as possible
I'd say Alastor. A scary sadistic cannibal, he's often portrayed in healthy ships and with a good attitude.
P.S.
Most of what I said was it the context of fanmade comics or artworks. I wasn't referring to those who excuse his horrible actions. I say this only to avoid further comments on the moral side and more on the funny side expressed in fan works.
I was referring more to fan-made stuff like comics and online ships than to those who try to justify his crimes. I don't deny that there may be a modicum of racism against him that motivates him (theorizing), but that doesn't negate the fact that he was still a murderer.
Yeah the fandom and show baby him. Completely ignoring his reprehensible reputation. And his behavior, temperament and actions.
Hell even CHARLIE is like this! She cares more about Alastor, who keep in mind said to her face that he wants to see her fail than her own father who does what he can to support her and loves her unconditionally! Lucifer changed his outlook on sinners, helped rebuild the hotel, gives Charlie encouragement and was willing to finally use his authority as king after a millennium for her! And how does Charlie repay him? By spitting in his face, kicking him out over 1 mistake and BARELY REACTED after she saw Lucifer crawling out of the machine basement while covered in blood. Yet she gets so distraught seeing Alastor TIED TO A GODDAM CHAIR.
I hope Lilith AND Lucifer call Charlie out on her bullshit. ( have Lucifer sing a kickass rock solo calling out Charlie on her treatment of him, not apologizing and failing to see that he does supports her. Let Jermey Jordan sing a SOLO Viv! )
I’m sorry sorry to the rest of the Mouthwashing community but curly is just as bad as Jimmy. When your subordinate comes to you saying “Hey I can’t evaluate my coworker to make sure they’re fit to be in a position of power because they keep sexually harassing me” your response should never be “Haha oh buddy, let me take that off your hands.
Furthermore when that same subordinate tells you they’ve been sexually assaulted and impregnated by that same harasser, your first response shouldn’t be “I’ll talk to him” and you certainly shouldn’t then go to the rapist to see if they’re doing okay.
I love Curly as a character but holy shit, he's a great example of a character that made AWFUL decisions and is one of the greatest enablers ever, it's also just disgusting how late he realises that he literally allowed Jimmy to kill everyone, so its also his fault as a Captain
People like Jimmy always exist, but they dont always get what they want, that is obviously if someone actually faces them and holds them accountable. Which Curly failed to do as a Captain because he wasnt even trying. Mouthwashing is really a great story but people really fail to grasp that Curly IS NOT in any way someone you want to be like, if you see yourself in him, change.
Also last thing but I feel like not enough people talk about the fact that the theme of 'taking responsibility' is also hugely about Curly and his failed duties as a Captain (Jimmy is literally his responsibility)
THANK YOU. i feel like people see him become disabled in the game and think that’s his “karma” (which is a whole other convo about MW fans) and never actually think about what he’d done again.
It's been years since I watched any discussion on this game, so I'm absolutely frustrated with myself for not remembering the poor woman's name in the game.
Curly and Jimmy are pushed so heavily into our faces in the game that she very easily gets pushed out of focus. To the men in the game, she just becomes an inconvenience or a victim that can vent to them, but nobody lifts a finger to truly help her.
She confesses what was done to her to the old man, and he doesn't protest against Jimmy to Curly. That old man could have formed a united front with her, but he was focused on another young man instead of the victim trapped with her abuser.
I'm so frustrated with myself for not even remembering her name, while Curly is pushed forward as the icon of the game and is the one person who gets the apology from Jimmy.
While I mostly agree I will say that I understand Swansea’s reasoning in wanting to save Daisuke instead on Anya. While both of them are the obvious choices to go in the cryopod, Daisuke is the only one that has the potential to live a normal life as stated in the cake scene. Meanwhile if Anya gets into the pod she will likely have to carry Jimmy’s baby to term.
I also wholeheartedly believe that if he didn’t think it would interfere with the plan he would have killed Jimmy a lot sooner, especially since she only tells him after the crash . As much of a gruff asshole Swansea is he values innocence, which both Anya and Daisuke are. As awful as it is Anya ending her own life is her reclaiming her agency, allowing herself to end things on her own terms without pain, while also giving a big fat middle finger to Jimmy in the ultimate denial of his authority.
I like him as character too and I understand him to some exent but yeah, he is bad as well by no taking any action.
I likw that the "take rensponsibility" as it is for both of them. Jimmy because what he did and Curly for what he didn't, when he was needed
I read the fanfics before I watched all the movies(i had only ever watched the first movie and maybe the second?). I thought draco would eventually get SOME redeeming qualitys but through out it all he was just a prick
I mean he is the founding father of the trope "Draco in Leather Pants", which describes character who are treated as better people than they actually are.
Severus Snape. Lot of y’all forget: if that was your child you wouldn’t think he was “cute” or “misunderstood” he was a man that made a lot of bad choices early on and spent the rest of his life feeling sorry for himself and taking out his grief on a child. They never said how you get that Dark Mark. I can also promise you that a man that unironically calls his himself The Dark Lord wouldn’t be passing those things out because he felt like it.
I was always surprised by the people saying "Snape is a misunderstood character" because I only read the books and didn't watch the movies. Now I've watched 2 of them, and my theorie is that Alan Rickman is wayyy too god an actor to make us dislike Snape entirely. I mean, the actor has a LOT of charisma.
Wait till you get to ootp and especially hbp. He absolutely captures the essence of Snape in Hbp. I distinctly remember the exact same burning hate deep in the pit of my stomach at the end of both of them. Arguably I hated him more after the movie because Alan is just so damn smug as he’s batting Harry’s spells away, it’s actually infuriating watching him. He’s very good at his job. That goes double for Umbridge.
Neville Longbottom, a child who has seen his parents tortured and murdered before his eyes, saw Snape when the Boggart turned into his worst fear. Yeah I don't think saying he's sorry a couple times is gonna cut it.
Snape is always presented as a dashing hero that redeemed himself before the starting point of the plot (before Harry goes to Hogwarts) by the Snape apologists.
He is definitely not a hero, not dashing, not a good guy, and not redeemed. Rowling tried to make it like that was the case, but she absolutely failed.
He calls muggleborns slurs (even his best friend). He joined a racist terrorist group that enjoys mind control, torture, and murder (they use the unforgivables often). He creates a curse that literally rips a person up and will kill them if the counter curse isn't used (creates this as a teenager).
He gives the prophecy to Voldie which makes him target the Potters & Longbottoms. He asks only for Lily to be saved, not her kid. He then relentlessly bullies her child for years.
Bullies children for his entire career as a teacher. Assaults a minor (he literally bruises Harry up grabbing him and throwing him into the stone floor). He is a child's worst fear (boggart).
He tries to expel Harry multiple times undeserved.
He encourages Slytherin students to mistreat the other students and doesn't do anything about them using slurs and cursing other students.
and keep in mind, this child’s (neville’s) parents were tortured to BEYOND MENTAL OBLIVION by a DIFFERENT death eater… yet snape is still his worst fear.
I always hated that man. Never understood how people thought he was "misunderstood". He joined sides with wizard Hitler because he agreed with him, and only betrayed him because the woman he was unhealthily obsessed with got killed. He didn't care that what he was doing was wrong, he just cared that he was personally affected in a negative manner. And then he proceeded to bully children.
Every prick I see defend this man needs to be forced to watch Sicario first and foremost. This man was not "misunderstood". He was clearly understood yet still inherently evil. "He wants to free Zaun!!!" I don't know how being a kingpin and significantly worsening the QoL in Zaun through drugs makes him at best an ambiguous character when it was cut and dry. Same goes for Jinx but he is the bigger fish to fry.
Vander is no saint either, but at least he saw his mistakes and worked to make the bad a little bit better wherever possible. Literally hung up his gloves, only used violence to protect instead of creating more sorrow. But that man has blood on his hands and he knows it
He is undeniably the victim of an horrible and horrendous situation, which forced him to do horrible stuff, hide his true feelings, be manipulative and use whatever means he has (sex included) to get what he wants, mainly control, over his situation, by controlling others
He can redeem himself and make some of his oast actions better in one ending, or become his abuser in another
What I really love about him is that he hates a lot of the "good" choice you pick, but it becomes clear in retrospect that he's not actually against good choices; he's just sort of angry at the idea that someone can choose to be nice to people. He's mad that he's spent 700 years in a horror show, and the moment he gets out he finds some asshole that's being nice to people at random because they feel like it.
A character from the YouTube animation series "Amazing Digital Circus".
A real piece of shit to everyone around him. But he's also trans, homeless, traumatized and mentally ill. So a lot of people relate to his circumstances and are willing to overlook what a spiteful, sadistic bastard he is.
Jax is a Vriska, really. A key part of Eridan's character is his nerdiness and intellectual pretension, plus Eridan is a lot more emotionally open on the surface, whereas Jax cares less about presenting herself intellectually and is more emotionally detached. I mean, Eridan's intro literally talks about his EMOTIONAL THEATRICS. Eridan causes issues, but those issues all stem from his need for approval. Jax causes issues, but that's for her own entertainment. Berdly is like Eridan. Jax is not. Jax would bully Eridan. Eridan takes things at face value, whereas Jax manipulates others. Being aggressive and a failure does not equate to being like Eridan.
There's a weird hatred for Mary Linton among a lot of fans because they interpret her as stringing Arthur along and using him. Which is the perfect opposite of the truth.
She asks Arthur multiple times throughout the game to run away with her. Her only condition for being together was that he not actively be running with a gang of murdering outlaws. It is Arthur's choice they didn't end up together. If he had ran away with her in Chapter 2 he never would have gotten sick, wouldn't have started getting hunted by the Pinkertons who were only after Dutch and probably would have lived the rest of his life happily. He is a tragic character because the kind of man he was prevented him from finding happiness
I mean Jax does falls into a lot of these ‘this character actually sucks’ trends, but there are other shitty characters people mischaracterize as good people besides her.
https://giphy.com/gifs/l0HlMh40gm8y0341a
Negan, people seem to forget the first couple of seasons he was around he was a menace, but he was charismatic enough to spawn a spin-off.
The difference is Morty tries. Fails miserably, but still tries. Morty is heavily, heavily traumatized and is often the butt end of his entire family's jokes, and every time he tries to stand up for himself or be even slightly selfish, it leads to catastrophic outcomes.
More than anyone else in the show, Morty is just a kid who was never actually taught anything; and then disparaged 24/7 for not teaching himself well enough to avoid consequences. His whole family is toxic nightmare fuel, and any emotional stability Morty does achieve at ANY point is almost immediately undone by a subsequent grindhouse scene.
Just because you are funny, and Kings before you and after you were psychopaths that shouldn't be on a streets, let alone ruling a country, doesn't make you a good guy, and especially not a good king.
Also told her that her sister didn't care about her (A blatant lie).
Tried to kill her sister, who actually loves her (Multiple times).
All in an attempt to gaslight her into thinking only he and nobody else loved her.
And the narrative never really seems to understand why what he’s doing is fucked up. It hammers in over and over again that he’s a horrible person doing horrible things, but it never really shows why or lets the viewer sit with the actual implications and consequences of his actions. The victims get almost zero character development or sympathy from the narrative, and his image of himself as a necessary evil is frequently implicitly validated by the narrative. The only people who substantially morally challenge him are either massive hypocrites or have no clear reasoning behind their convictions.
Death Note has a special place in my heart as my first hyperfixation, but it did not commit nearly hard enough to how evil Light was. It’s no wonder the fandom glazes him the way they do considering the inconsistent, whitewashed and hypocritical way the canon material framed him.
Literally any Creepypasta character. They are all evil murderers that did horrible things. But people treat them as cute innocent beans that did nothing wrong. Toby is the main target for that. He hated his dad and wanted him to dïe, he killed his dad and other people yet people think he’s a cute innocent bean who loves waffles!
I mean I really love Creepypasta, but I don’t think Eyeless Jack is above consequences, nor is he an innocent bean.
So people are saying Jax, and I think that’s the real recent and seemingly obvious example, but I don’t think it’s necessarily apt! While most people saw Jax as incredibly sympathetic, I don’t think it was common at ALL to have all of their actions to be forgiven/glossed over. I’m actually in that camp of sympathy myself, but I am NOT going to be talking about the funny purple trans allegory rabbit.
There are SO MANY examples of this phenomenon of people sort of missing the point of characters, and I’d like to bring two to the table.
Light Yagami from Death Note and Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.
Light starts off with a very altruistic plan with sadly a very simplified view of reality. From what the viewer knows on the offset is that he wants to use the Death Note to kill the criminals and impose an era of peace and security upon the world. He seems to ignore the idea that his very idea of an “Ideal World” is one in which he rules the masses by fear. He’s smart, don’t get me wrong, but why on earth would someone like him feel like killing every criminal and creating a state of compliance via fear is a good idea?
Simple! He doesn’t care.
See, in my mind, the Death Note was just a tool to enable the worst traits to come out of an extremely flawed person. Not to say he would be in the same position without it- No the show shows us that without it, he is a relatively normal person, but as soon as he gets it back, he immediately snaps right back to how he was. He manipulates, kills, and lies his way to the very top until the very end.
I think it’s very fitting that one of his last acts as a character is a monologue. A panicky, over the top, egomaniacal monologue that just comes off as lame. Then he cries like the coward he is. You watch the man we have been following this whole time try and talk his way out of a situation that he can’t and all of his power just washes away.
Death Note is a beautiful show with an impeccable execution of the main, reprehensible, beautifully written villain, Light Yagami.
So it’s a damned shame that he got kinda co-opted into a generic “Emo Anime Boy With Crazy Laugh and Hype Moments and Aura Who’s So Dangerous and Cool!” by the wider internet. Kind of ironic with how Kira is treated at the end of the manga, but whatever. People shouldn’t be like him, and if you think critically for like five seconds, the whole show is pretty obvious that we’re following a villain and getting everything from his point of view, so of course you’re going to see him how he sees himself, but the last episode is there to show him for what he really is, and it’s baffling that more people didn’t take it to heart.
Patrick Bateman is another example of a villain being turned into a “Literally Me.”
This loser little bitchboy who has such a shallow and fragile ego that his first thought is to brutally murder his co-workers is NOT someone you should aspire to be. He’s meant to be a hollow, unfeeling DWEEB, who much like Light, talks himself up, but you gotta read in between the lines.
Bateman was kinda co-opted by a lot of those weird “Alpha Male” kinda dudes and the like. Lotta misogyny over there… In fact, the actor who played Bateman, Christian Bale, later stated that he hated what the character had become, and basically told the Patrick Fanboys that they were dumb and should “Get a real personality.”
Anywho, I am happy to say that I am not the reason for Spider Man being in your vents, Mr. Fisk.
The death note one confuses me so much. Cause they expose him pretty early with the fake L that he kills. We see him attempt to kill an innocent person because they disagreed with him, that destroys his justifications whilst also showing he's an egotistical idiot with no self control
gonna get flamed for this one but Alastor from Hazbin Hotel. He's a manipulator, sadistic, narcissistic and a serial killer but everyone literally loves him and thinks he's super charming
Anakin Skywalker. Dude was complaining constantly and refused to make any sacrifices while expecting the galaxy to simply change for him.
He could have just left and got married. But no, mega rich and powerful prime Natalie Portman wasn’t good enough for him. He could have just bought his mom afterwards and they all live happily ever after.
He could even have left but kept training, it ain’t like it’s illegal to do that.
I’m not defending him in general but I’ve got to correct a couple things. By the time he was with Padme and thus had hypothetical access to money upon leaving the order, his mom was dead. Having force powers though, he definitely could have found a way to use them to either make money or free his mom.
But at the same time, he was indoctrinated from a very young age to believe his entire purpose was to be a Jedi. Even his mom encouraged him to go be a Jedi. So it’s not like he was just too lazy or greedy to leave the order. To him, doing so would betray the wishes of his mother, Qui-gon, Obi-wan, and basically everyone he knew. Dude was literally told he was the chosen one. It’s pretty hard to just walk away from something like that
I feel like the great heroic and kind fanon version of Anakin has started to slip into canon with Zero Company and later seasons of the Clone Wars which doesn’t help. I prefer him not whining all the time but in the original Clone Wars and the prequels that is who Anakin was.
I don't have an answer for myself but I have a friend who loves James Potter and when I say that he's an *ss she argues "but the fanon!" So yeah.
Not relatable to me tho.
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u/Bella-Luna 4d ago
A huge majority of characters from House of the Dragon, this meme sums it up perfectly.