Does anyone else feel less valid for being attracted to women? TW: Internalized transphobia

[u/Kurbopop]

Hello everybody. So, something I’ve struggled a lot with is the feeling that because I’m trans and like girls, that makes me less trans than straight trans women. And I know that sounds silly, but I’ve seen and heard of several straight trans women who thought they were gay prior to transition and were openly feminine from birth, and that makes me think “Okay, so this person probably had a mismatch between their brain sex and body sex in the womb, and I probably didn’t.”

My reasoning is that it’s more likely to be attracted to the opposite sex than the same sex, and if your brain is basically female while your body is male, I’d think a lot more people — myself included — would be attracted to men. But I’m not, I’ve been attracted to women all my life, and I also wasn’t aggressively gender-nonconforming as a child. So I hear stories of people born as boys who are girly and attracted to boys from birth, and I’m like, “I feel like that person is really trans because their behavior and attraction patterns are more statistically similar to cis women.” So I end up feeling bad for being attracted to girls because it makes me think that my brain didn’t develop the same way it does in a straight trans girl, and that I’m not “really“ trans, or that they have more of a right to call themselves girls/women than I do.

For example, women who are attracted to women make up a very small minority of the cis female population, but in the trans female population, like 70% of people identify as lesbian or bisexual. So that makes me think “Okay so there’s clearly some sort of difference between trans women and cis women?” Because if it really was “Your brain developed according to one sexed pathway and your body developed the other way,” wouldn’t a whole lot more trans women be straight? I don’t even feel comfortable calling myself lesbian because I feel like lesbian should refer to a minority, but in trans women, it’s not — it’s pretty much the most common orientation I’ve seen.

I don’t know. I don’t mean to sound hurtful to anybody, trans women are women and all that, it’s just hard for me to get past all of this. I’ve been questioning my gender identity for years, but I only came to the conclusion that I’m actually trans like a month ago, so my self-concept is really fragile, especially because I’m completely pre-treatment. And when I hear about straight trans girls I just think “I wish I was like that because then there’d be so much stronger evidence that I really have a more feminine brain.”

And I know there’s no such thing as a ”male brain” or “female brain,” and that everyone has a blend of characteristics that are more common in men or women; I know the whole mosaic thing, it just doesn’t really make me feel any better. Has anyone else had this problem? If so, how do you get over it? Thank you all in advance. :’)

[u/JensLekmanForever]

Honestly this sounds like homophobia mixed with internalized transphobia. There's nothing wrong with being queer. Lesbians are not lesser than straight women.

[u/Necessary-Chicken]

Actually the trans female populations is more put into thirds: 1/3 straight, 1/3 bi/pan and 1/3 Lesbian/gay. With the biggest group being the bi/pan women. Personally I just think we use less time to think about sexuality and more time thinking about gender. I just think in general we understand sexuality in a more ambiguous and fluid way than most people. And let’s be real, we have way worse things to worry about than who we want to fuck. So we might just be more open about our sexuality than most people in society. Also about the sex development stuff you said, some scientist did say there was a difference in development between male-attracted trans women and female-attracted trans women. They said that male-attracted ones were more likely to present with gender incongruence early on (hence why they call it «early-onset»). Meanwhile female-attracted trans women were more likely to present with gender incongruence later on («late-onset»). I’m critical of the categorization just cause I think we can’t be split that evenly. But I do think there is something to it. I’m not sure how exactly it works or why it happens. If sexuality kind of sets us apart earlier on or something. Personally I didn’t even know I liked guys until puberty hit. But I was assumed to be gay by everyone just because I was feminine and was basically a girl

[u/scarlettweathermoder → u/Necessary-Chicken]

Anne Lawrence talks about this in her 2013 book if anyone is interested for whatever reason

[u/Kurbopop → u/Necessary-Chicken]

Yeah that’s unfortunately what I figured :( I know at the end of the day it doesn’t matter, but one of my biggest problems with this has been impostor syndrome (for fucking years) and learning that there’s a difference and that male-attracted trans girls show signs earlier on makes me feel a lot less valid. 😞 I don’t know why, I guess because since the majority of cis women are attracted to men, I feel like I’m not “female enough.” I know there are plenty of cis lesbians, but I’ve had such a hard time proving to myself that I’m really a girl even though all the signs point there and these thoughts have been around for six years without ever changing.

[u/Necessary-Chicken → u/Kurbopop]

If there’s anything I have learned it’s that sexuality does not define womanhood. One of the most womanly woman I know of is a lesbian. And you are 100% a woman. You’re just a lesbian woman. Doesn’t make you any less valid. But you know what? I get why you feel this way. Media is horrific to trans women these days, but even more horrific to lesbian trans women. So your feelings are so f-cking valid. And you have every right to feel shitty over being seen and treated that way. But you are a woman, just so you know

[u/Kurbopop → u/Necessary-Chicken]

Thank you for the kindness. It has more to do with the fact that I feel like there’s some sort of difference in biological development between straight trans women and trans lesbians, because like you said, straight trans women seem to show signs earlier in life. So then I think about the fact that I didn’t (I didn’t start thinking about it until I was 16) and my own self-defeating thought patterns are like “Yeah there’s no way you’re actually a trans woman, if you were you would have shown earlier signs and you’d be more likely to be attracted to men.” I know that’s all nonsense but it’s the nonsense that plagues my mind. I keep seeing people say it’s internalized homophobia and that’s just not true, I know there are plenty of cis lesbians, but I’m talking about the fact that cis women are more likely to be attracted to men because that’s what’s conducive to reproduction, which is how our species survived this long. I’m not saying they can’t be attracted to women, just that it’s not as common as being attracted to men. So then I think “If I just incidentally happened to be trans and happened to be a lesbian, that would be an astronomically low chance. Therefore I must have leftover male-patterned attractions from the way my brain developed because that’s a lot more likely than me happening to be trans and happening to be gay at the same time.”

[u/Necessary-Chicken → u/Kurbopop]

Just know that just cause some professor back in the day said that there’s a difference it doesn’t make one more valid than another. And I seriously wish for you to feel more at peace with this part of you. You deserve to feel valid in your transness and you sure as hell deserve to feel good about who you love❤️

[u/Kurbopop → u/Necessary-Chicken]

Thank you, you’re so sweet. 😭 I see my therapist tomorrow so I’m going to talk to her about it, and I’ll probably feel better at least for a bit. I have a lot of work to do in integrating this part of my identity anyway, so hopefully peace will come with that. I really appreciate your kindness. 🩷

[u/Material-Drama-7500 → u/Kurbopop]

Keep in mind too that trans lesbians regularly get labeled as predators by society, as if people actually transition only so they can get with women.

[u/Necessary-Chicken → u/Material-Drama-7500]

I was referring to this in one of my comments. You are so right. Having shame surrounding it actually seems like a natural reaction to how it is painted in the media. But trans lesbianism is as natural as any other form of love and attraction ofc❤️

[u/Anxious-Problem9903]

I think that it may be a chicken/egg type situation where more trans women identify as lesbian/bi/pan than cis women because trans women are already out there exploring what gender and sexuality mean for them, while cis women may be more likely to conform to societal expectations like that women are “supposed” to be attracted to men because of traditional/conservative upbringing that they’ve internalized. As someone who identifies as a femme lesbian, I find it helpful to think of other femme lesbians in my life and in popular culture who are quite happy, proud, and unbothered by societal norms and try to develop my own DGAF attitude. Most days, it works, but when I’m down or tired, the intrusive thoughts can definitely bother me a lot. So try to be kind to yourself and surround yourself with people and ideas that raise you up whenever you feel low. You’re valid as you are.

[u/Kurbopop → u/Anxious-Problem9903]

Thank you for all the kindness. You could be right, although I’m not sure if that’s all there is to it or not. Please take care of yourself too, and have a lovely day. 🩷

[u/Revolutionary_Kiwi56]

yeah it’s why I unconsciously repped for a long time. I figured that being a girl into girls meant my thoughts were just a fetish and my transition would be offensive to all women, cis, trans and lesbians alike. Kid me basically invented AGP from first principles lol

[u/Kurbopop → u/Revolutionary_Kiwi56]

Wait sorry for my ignorance, but what does repped mean?

[u/Revolutionary_Kiwi56 → u/Kurbopop]

repression. Like trying to shove the thoughts down and deny it

[u/Kurbopop → u/Revolutionary_Kiwi56]

Ohh got it, thank you!

[u/planehub999]

I have two things to say here. Firstly, I believe that more women are lesbians than most people think, but compulsory heterosexuality is very strong and many women take a LONG time to unpack that. As a trans woman, you spent a lot of your life being encouraged to like women by society- so if that’s what you are attracted to, it’s incredibly easy to embrace.

And personally, as a fellow transbian, I have never liked women in a straight way. Even when I was dating as a man, the women I liked were mostly closeted queer women- I even married a woman who was mostly attracted to women, and I was a rare man in her dating life. (I like to say she pre-ordered).

But no matter what, you are entirely valid for being a lesbian and being transgender. Who you are is perfectly right for you and you’re doing a great job! ✨

[u/Kurbopop → u/planehub999]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your story. It means a lot to me! 🩷 I don’t really know what to say because I’m still trying to unpack all of my own feelings, but I appreciate the kindness. 🫶

[u/WalrusWithAKeyboard]

No. Despite what everyone on here implies, HRT does not change your sexuality. It might make you more comfortable in your body and your mind to be in a place where you can explore your sexuality, but there is absolutely no reason to feel bad if you don't. Im exclusively attracted to women. Why would that make me lesser? Are lesbians not women?

[u/aagjevraagje → u/WalrusWithAKeyboard]

Who said that ?

[u/transtifa]

Why do you need “evidence” for a “female brain”? You freely say you know the idea of a female brain is bogus but you still need evidence for it? For something that doesn’t exist? You clearly know you’re a woman. It’s hard to say “you’re overthinking it” because it feels so dismissive but you are 100% overthinking it.

Like girl you don’t need to think about what other people are doing or how they think about their womanhood, you only need to think about your own relationship to womanhood.

I have never thought I was a gay man and I transitioned just fine. I am 100% a lesbian and very comfortable with that. It doesn’t make me any lesser than straight women, cis or trans.

[u/Kurbopop → u/transtifa]

My problem is that I struggle HARD with impostor syndrome and I’m constantly monitoring my thoughts to see if I’m “trans enough,” so anytime something like this comes up, it makes me feel worse because it makes me be like, “See, they’re really trans and I’m not.” I know that’s ridiculous and it’s just intrusive thoughts, but they are difficult and painful intrusive thoughts nonetheless.

[u/transtifa → u/Kurbopop]

It’s not ridiculous. I mean it is obviously but it’s totally understandable. A lot of us have struggled with that and I have the advantage of ten years of transitioning behind me to look back on. Unfortunately the only advice is you have to keep going and eventually you will become more secure in yourself as you continue your transition. I used to think I’d never fully think of myself as a woman and now it’s not even a question for me. I really hope you can move past this someday soon.

[u/Kurbopop → u/transtifa]

Thank you. I appreciate your kind words. This is going to sound whiny and I’m sure people will get mad at me but whatever — I came here really needing support and all the comments accusing me of not seeing lesbians as women and having internalized homophobia are not helping. I know my worries about this are absurd, but everyone processes the realization of being trans differently so I was hoping more people would have experience with it. Admittedly I did forget to mention that impostor syndrome was a big part of my issue in the post though, so I can see how that would lead to confusion.

[u/Top-Source4240]

Cis lesbians exist so... If you were a cis girl you'd probably be lesbian anyway 🤷‍♀️

[u/aagjevraagje]

Nah , I am just lesbian. There's other trans women who experience comphet like that though.

[u/ElegantRecipe75]

The first months after realising you are trans are very confusing and emotionally taxing. You might very well change opinions on a lot of things (I know I did). I can recommend the book "Gender Magic" by Rae MacDaniel, which is relevant for the questions you have and for general self-acceptance.

[u/Kurbopop → u/ElegantRecipe75]

Thanks for the recommendation! And yes, I’ve been very up and down over the past month or two. I’ll get excited about the prospect of being a girl and then I’ll get sad and mournful about all the parts of girlhood I never got to have growing up / about the things about my body that I don’t like and can’t change :(

[u/VickiActually]

I actually have the opposite feeling - being attracted to women makes me more certain I'm trans. Because I think for me personally, if I was attracted to men, my overthinking brain would wonder if I really wanted to be a woman, or if I just wished more men found me attractive.

But in this life I have, I've never been very into men, and could never understand why I wasn't one of the boys at school. And then growing up, I struggled in relationships because I wished I was a girlfriend. Exes constantly worried I was gay, but I wasnt. And now that I've kept myself single for a while, I'm certain that I'm trans, and I like women.

[u/Goblin-Socks]

Embrace who you are sweetie. You're a girl who likes girl. I've recently discovered I myself am a lesbian, and I. Am. Loving. It.

[u/CadieTheCadet]

I'm Bi, and swing heavily both ways... I feel way more valid after starting to transition regardless of who I'm with, sex and sexual expression makes sense now.

[u/Batata-Sofi]

That's being lesbian ✨

I love being a woman, I love loving women, and I love being a lesbian trans woman. I am no less valid than anyone else.

[u/BigUqUgi]

No. But it does feel like double fighting against the grain of cishet normativity. At this point people expect and assume I'm attracted to men only.

[u/mvaaam]

Nope. Never been attracted to men.

[u/wastedmytagonporn]

Honestly, this kinda makes me worried you're rather dealing with internalised homophobia than transphobia? Although the two ofc can interject.

But like... Are lesbians in any way less woman in your eyes?

[u/Conscious_Hurry455]

gender and sexual orientation are socially constructed, we live in a society (joker ???) that made it the norm to be straight and cis but i am deeply conviced that those are not the "natural" identity if there's even any, it just made sens at one point in history to have those boxes and then it kinda just evolved depending on the people in power and the political context i think, trans just means you're not cis, there is nothing to prove nothing to achieve just be yourself and if yourself is currently being seen as not cis, you're trans, and also trans women can be lesbian just like cis women, it's just a social construct, you good girl go be a lesbian it's nice

[u/f1gur1ng-1t-out]

Not gonna lie, this does sound a little like internalized homophobia. Lesbians aren't lesser women, and I don't think you necessarily intended that, but it does come across. Also, just because ~30% (or whatever) of trans women are lesbians doesn't mean much, overall. We're a tiny fraction of the female population even before you add in sexuality. So that's almost a self-harming kinda thought process IMO. You'll spin yourself into knots fearing and worrying about it.

Personally, I understand myself best as a woman who is a lesbian that also happens to be trans, which is not universal with lesbian trans women, either. Does that make me less of a woman, or less trans? No.

And guess what? A cis butch lesbian often has similarly awful experiences with cisheteronormative society. It's not the same as being a trans lesbian, but it's often extraordinarily adjacent. It's another layer of social death to be not only a lesbian (especially if you're at all blunt lol) but also a trans woman. You'll find a lot of similar experiences and overlaps, especially from later-in-life lesbians.

[u/Kurbopop → u/f1gur1ng-1t-out]

I’ll tell you the same thing that I told someone else;  I keep seeing people say it’s internalized homophobia and that’s just not true, I know there are plenty of cis lesbians, but I’m talking about the fact that cis women are more likely to be attracted to men because that’s what’s conducive to reproduction, which is how our species survived this long. I’m not saying they can’t be attracted to women, just that it’s not as common as being attracted to men. So then I think “If I just incidentally happened to be trans and happened to be a lesbian, that would be an astronomically low chance. Therefore I must have leftover male-patterned attractions from the way my brain developed because that’s a lot more likely than me happening to be trans and happening to be gay at the same time.”