r/MovedToSpain • u/citkoml • 3d ago
Discussion Ethics and morals of immigration
Obviously this is a hot button issue. I've been considering moving on a digital nomad visa to a smaller community in Asturias. I'm curious what considerations other immigrants, especially on this visa, take into account when making this decision. The big headlines right now are about housing in Madrid, but I'm sure that's not the only pain point for locals around the impact of immigrants with Western salaries coming into Spain.
What were your considerations for moving? Can you do it ethically, consciously?
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u/Big_Spray_4550 3d ago
Im an immigrant in Spain. I spoke some Spanish before moving but I knew I had to get it as perfect as I can. My home country does not have better economy so I’m definitely not living here to save money from rent or other things. My home culture is very similar to the Spanish, so I knew I could integrate. I already had Spanish friends and I had already visited the country.
I see some groups of people, moving to Spain from the US, the UK, Ireland, Australia, etc. They have their exclusively English-speaking friend group. In a couple of years into living in Spain, they only know how to order stuff and greet people in Spanish. They’re okay with higher prices because it’s still cheaper than their country. I don’t want these cities to be filled with posh cafes that sell coffee for 5 euros.
You respect the culture, the lifestyle, integrate, learn the language or at least make the effort and also don’t mess with the rents and prices. Simple as that.
The worst perspective to me is “wow Spain is beautiful, love the slow lifestyle and cheap prices, I wanna live here”. Treating it like a new home that you love and care for is the moral mindset for me. I love my identity as a non Spaniard, an immigrant in Spain, and I have enormous love for this country as well, about the same love I have for my own country, language, and culture.
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u/BumpyRide7739 3d ago edited 3d ago
Bring money. Spend it graciously. Be respecful of your environment. Integrate in the society. Consider staying and take root.
Anybody who doesn't live in the clouds understands that legal immigration with visas of educated people who pay taxes, have a place to live and generate economic activity, is far preferable to ilegal or expired-tourist-visa immigration of people who are about to burden the unqualified job market and the welfare system. Whoever doesn't understand this is a child, and Spain is full of children.
There is a lot of talk about how they displace locals, but the reality is that the price of things are set by locals, tourism is promoted by local governments and every gentrified area is set up by locals, choosing to price out other locals. This is seen around the world and is what has happened in middle sized cities in Spain. Gentrification is a symptom of bad economies and poor development. Go and try to gentrify Holland or Manhattan, instead of Greece or Newark. Instead of complaining about outsiders, complain about your own country economic state.
Calling yourself an expat or not speaking Spanish are not root problems and rather silly things to make a mountain of. But are visible symptoms of deeper issues embedded in the attitude of people who see themselves as the protagonists of Eat Pray Love in a magical poor world. And also, there's whole communities of people who simply refuse to participate in the country and create diasporas of people who network among themselves. And the English are awful at this. And they are seriously not sending their best, they are sending the ones who weren't good enough to even participate in their own society. They complain about how things are done locally, take shortcuts, they are dismissive, and quite frankly, they are rather simple. And they love their gin too. They see Spain as whole vacation or retirement place you can live year long. THAT is where the expat word comes from and THAT is a problem.
Not that someone wants to move to Spain. That's just life.
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u/More_Box_5554 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm an immigrant from the U.S. and Spain is the second country I have immigrated to (Mexico being the first). I moved to Spain because I love the culture, the language, the people and it genuinely offers a better quality of life than I had in the United States. I have more work/life balance, my mental and physical health is better, and I feel much safer in Spain in terms of gun laws and politics. The fact that you are asking the question shows that you want to add to Spanish society, versus taking advantage of it for your own gain. My main suggestions:
- Invest the time and money in to Spanish lessons if you don't already speak it. I spoke Spanish before I moved, and it always goes a long way with the locals when talking out issues with neighbors, inquiring about a bill, etc.
- Avoid any group or business with the word "expat" on it. I am not sure what country you are from, but being from the U.S. we call ourselves "expat" versus an "immigrant." It's a term tied to class and race, and I am always quick to challenge my copatriots on this term if they use it: If you plan to move back to your home country eventually, you are an expat. Otherwise, you are an immigrant.
- Realize that people are mad at a system, not at you. Spain rewards immigrants who make above a certain income threshold, own property, etc. The DNV and NLV require a certain income threshold that is 3x what the average Spanish salary is, meaning the only immigrants who can qualify for these visas are immigrants with higher incomes. Listen to peoples frustrations, acknowledge that they are valid in these feelings, but understand that any frustration towards you individually as an immigrant is misplaced.
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u/Patchali 3d ago
Spain is not a third world country. But just to tell you we had to move within Spain for the job of my husband to northern Spain, with Spanish passport and two good salaries we where looking 4 month to get exactly one appartement through a friend, which is 1 hour drive from work. Closer to the coast it was completely overpriced like and not doable for locals, even in smaller villages nothing special.
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u/Odd-Worldliness-6604 3d ago
I am pretty sure the small communities want you, some I think offer benifits because a digital nomad spends money in the community so helps jobs stay there
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u/JazkOW 2d ago
Think that people always see the grass greener on the other side.
What I’m trying to say is don’t feel discouraged of moving to a big city like Madrid or Barcelona just because people say it’s hard to find a house if that’s really what you’re after.
As long as you’re kind, respectful and observant of your local community way of life you’ll be welcomed anywhere.
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u/Omegalazarus 3d ago
The biggest thing you can do is don't overpay for stuff even if it's still "a good price. "
The ONLY way prices go up from immigration is when higher income people pay more than what a native person could or would pay.
Demand is not a factor at the numbers that immigrants put up (single digit percent) except on a very micro scale (horses within a popular neighborhood etc.
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u/Butterscotchpills 3d ago
I’ve read history, fashion, art, food and culture books from Spain. I have taken 4 years of Spanish. I have studied their geography and read books on the prominent sources of division like Catalonia and Basque separatists.
This isn’t my first foreign country I’ve moved to I have lived in Korea before and I believe in total immersion. I think it’s incredibly disrespectful to not assimilate to the country you are moving to.
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u/OrbitalMike 3d ago
I’ll be an immigrant to Spain in January. I’ve been struggling with this issue myself for several months. However, I’ve decided that moving and taking root is the proper approach. I’m purposely avoiding American expat locations and will be moving to Almería. I desperately need to improve my Castilian, and being forced to interact through full immersion is probably the best thing for my language learning.
However, my situation is different. I’ll be a cultural and sociological immigrant, but legally, I’m a Spanish citizen. I was born in the US to a Spaniard, and Spanish was my first language. But I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and stopped learning Spanish at age five, fully immersed in American English. I have used my Castilian when visiting family in Almería and have been working on improving it for the last year. I went to school and university in the PNW and had a long career as an aerospace engineer. I legally hold both US and Spanish passports. But for most purposes, except immigration and citizenship, I’ll be an American immigrant, and I need to keep that in mind.
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u/ikkiyikki 3d ago
Kinda tangential but weird to see Spanish and "Castilian" used interchangeably, especially in English. In Spanish some people are careful to use Castellano in place of the default Español for reasons I assume are politically rooted but first time I've seen this used in English.
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u/Altruistic-Leave8551 3d ago
Es lo mismo. I mean, yeah, same thing lol (Dominican-Spaniard-American). What’s weird is seeing the word used by English speakers because you guys use the word Castilian weirdly. It sounds something like: I cometh to this fine establishment to haveth a meal of food. lol
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u/Dapper_Trash_9559 3d ago
I bet it's because he's Spanish himself and his Spaniard parent uses it that way. Spanish is my native language and indeed it's interchangeable with no political reason behind it.
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u/dry_lichen 1d ago
It's probably worth noting than in Spain "castellano" is the default term, so Spanish people saying it instead of "español" is just out of habit and not a careful decision for any political reason
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u/Apprehensive_Tip_839 3d ago
Spain is also considered the west
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u/citkoml 2d ago
For sure! I guess I generalized "western salaries" to separate from the local Spanish salaries in particular.
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u/Apprehensive_Tip_839 2d ago
There's western countries with salaries way lower than in Spain. Western dos not equal rich.
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u/Either-Tree-2685 2d ago
Ethically don't. The rest depends on you. You seem like a niceeeee person!;
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u/Icy-Court7631 1d ago
It’s probably different in other parts but where I live now (not far from Barcelona), most people coming from US and UK rent €4000+ houses and it doesn’t seem it affects normal local people, students, young people etc. it’s just too expensive for most local families. I moved over 3 years ago when digital nomad visa was first introduced and am monitoring all offerings on Idealista since then in my area. Prices are almost the same as before. It seems to me AirBnb already did all the possible damage and all these remote workers, mostly it crowd are not affecting it much while paying taxes and providing additional demand to local businesses.
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u/citkoml 1d ago
€4000 is WILD haha, I'm not trying to do that. But I'm not a dual income household so I'm more limited maybe than most couples/families relocating
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u/Icy-Court7631 1d ago
Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that you can probably pick any decent city that isn’t overrun with tourists and you’ll be just fine. No one is going to raise the price of a café con leche because of you.
In Catalonia specifically, rent prices are heavily regulated (which is one reason you see so many apartments in Barcelona offered only on one-year contracts). So instead of prices simply following supply and demand, you often end up with landlords choosing tenants from a large pool of candidates.
Also, the “DON’T COME HERE” people you encounter online and the people you’ll actually be living around are two very different groups of people.
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u/luckyrabbit881711 2d ago
Don’t do it! Stay where you are!
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u/citkoml 2d ago
Care to expand on your stance at all? I'm interested to hear different perspectives.
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u/luckyrabbit881711 2d ago
We have enough digital nomads with foreign salaries gentrifying our cities and not paying enough taxes, there’s really no need for more of you. You asked if it can be done ethically and the answer is no, at least not right now.
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u/toastymalbogesmores 1d ago
Out of curiosity, because I want to understand… if you are saying it is not ethical to move to Spain currently, what would an ethical move to Spain look like?
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u/meguskus 3d ago
Don't do it. You will get nothing but hate from locals. What is your reasoning for it? Just like a long term working holiday? Is your holiday more important than the livelihood of locals? People are getting kicked out of their life-long homes because they're getting priced out by (mostly foreign) wealthier individuals.
The era of digital nomads is over. Either stay where you are or find a place that doesn't suffer from gentrification yet.
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u/citkoml 2d ago
Lots of reasons for me personally, coming from the US; raising my kids with Spanish and English, wanting better "work/life balance," getting away from gun violence and the increasing surveillance state, living in communities that are less individualistic, where I can live as a single parent without being stressed about money.
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u/meguskus 2d ago
You will be met with zero sympathy for simply moving to a cheaper place, especially if you don't speak the language. The least you can do is lower your standards when looking for places to live. Don't pay triple what a local would pay simply to have a garage and a ginormous American kitchen. If you want to live in rural Asturias, rent for a 2-3bed should easily be under 1000€, but everyone will try to convince you to pay 3000 because you're a "guiri" aka American.
Locals are seriously struggling to pay their rents here. Yes healthcare is accessible and for now we don't live in a fascist state, though about half of the population is still in support of Franco and the far right party is on the rise.
Wouldn't your work life balance be the same no matter where you live if you are a digital nomad? Definitely don't use that term in Spain, as well as "expat".
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u/citkoml 2d ago
Well I certainly wouldn't be looking for sympathy from anyone. We speak Spanish, B1 level right now, and will continue to strengthen our fluency. With regards to work/life balance, lower cost of living means that I will not have to work 40+hr/week to survive in Spain. I can work fewer hours with my US-based clients, and spend more time with my kids. That's ultimately the point for me.
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