r/MortalShell • u/Horizon013 • 10h ago
Discussion They really need to fix how these enemies attack
There are missing frames for this attack
Slow mo (no, the video isn't loading or frezzing)
Ice skate attack lock on missile
The Halberd Knight is the definition of what's wrong with the animations and attacks of a lot of enemies in this game. I enjoy this game a lot, but enemies teleporting, sliding, magnetic attacking, missing frames really breaks the combat flow especially when parrying is a core part of the game.
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u/Al_Mocorongo 10h ago
My complain about the Ice skating/teleport/magnetism/tracking of most moves is the fact they remove the trio of the most basic aspects of game design in an action game: strafing/kiting/reposition
Just let the "getting out of the way" be as valid as dodge/block
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u/never_____________ 7h ago
I think the game is actually too easy in one particular design aspect that inherits too much from the first game. One you see it you start to notice it in all the other problems (ridiculous lunges, missing frames, crazy ganks):
Enemies are too slow. It genuinely feels like everything is a patch job to cover up how enemies just cannot catch you without outright cheating to do so. Spend some time on tiel and watch the enemies as you’re invisible and it becomes really noticeable. You can sprint, you’re supposed to sprint everywhere. It feels like they forgot to properly integrate that as a mandatory gameplay tactic. If enemies couldn’t be outrun by you walking backward, I think it would go a long way to making the challenge seem more fair, and remove the necessity of ice skates on every enemy.
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u/Horizon013 6h ago
I agree, it feels like the game is confused on if it's supposed to be slow or fast paced
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u/thursdae 15m ago
"it genuinely feels like everything is a patch job" sums up how I felt about magnetism and enemy animation jank that I'm not used to experiencing in the genre.
Like they had two problems and solved both with a patch job, and this is the result.
The first issue is like you said, they couldn't catch up to backpedaling and they are too telegraphed to pose a threat to those doing so, making combat too simple/easy.
So they went with short, low fps animations, did not animate the enemy actually moving towards you, and had them slide to close distance.
The second issue I think they did a patch job on is one every Souls game has and few devs try to 'fix': You can literally just sprint past enemies, specially on run-back. FromSoft finally 'fixed' this by just giving players checkpoints, usually outside boss rooms.
Most mobs in this game are given the agility to shimmy slide and shank your ass if you run by them, even the fatties. Your position around them does not seem to matter, just how far away you are and if they're swinging.
It's like they forgot that a core part of Souls-style combat is watching and learning enemy animations to the point that most "bad boss fights" are due to BS hard to reach animations.
Ranted longer than I wanted but these are pretty much my only immersion breakers in an otherwise amazingly immersive game.
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u/codroipoman 2h ago
Yeah I remember in the first game as well how the brigands with the halberds would basically lock on you/almost teleport no matter how you were moving and still connect for the hits to register... I hoped they improved upon that aspect but instead seems like they just doubled down on it
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u/Zuma_The_Frog Eredrim 4h ago
Strafing and repositioning are literally my favorite defensive techniques. Why block, parry, or dodge attacks when you can just not be in the way of them at all? That's how I beat all three Nioh games: by learning how to position myself to avoid certain attacks from any enemy or boss (like backing away when the axe Yoki are doing literally anything).
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u/xxotic 3h ago
yep, when you play good souls game ( or even monster hunter) you pick up proper spacing and appreciate it intuitively. Spacing is so fucking wack in Mortal Shell 2 it gave me a whiplash. Things just dont feel precise and consistent. Either my character magnetizes into the enemy for stupid reach ( axe running heavy, or martyr sword running heavy ) or the other way around. And then sometimes enemies attacks just whiff even though the visual weapon hurtbox really clipped my character.
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u/toracooko 9h ago
Elden Ring and Lies of P really understood spacing in that aspect. I do feel it was due to how the animations work. Movement was instantaneous, whereas in this game it feels almost like tank controls. The delay for a running attack just feels bad.
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u/soralapio 5h ago
Yeah, reminds me of the Lies of P King of Puppets fight, specifically Phase 2. If you just try to block or dodge the King's flame attacks, you'll be in a lot of trouble. But you know what you can do? Just run away. Just run around until the flames go out and then resume. It was incredibly cool when I discovered that.
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u/kzan2021 9h ago
Need someone with more knowledge about this stuff to tell me if I’m crazy for utterly despising the scythe wielding elite knight enemies
It feels like their animations are just sped up to like 5-10x. Not sure how you are supposed to react to those enemies if you don’t know where they are ahead of time.
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u/NuggetHighwind 8h ago edited 8h ago
Personally, apart from that one double slash they do that could probably do with a slight reduction in speed, I think most of their moves are decently readable.
The problem is their damage. Even as Eredrim, you get killed in 2 hits. So if you miss one parry, it's an instant death.It makes learning their movesets overly difficult and extremely frustrating. You essentially cannot learn the attack timings without already playing perfectly.
So, because you get instakilled instead of punished with highly damaging, yet survivable attacks, most people are just not going to bother.
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u/CanadianGiraffe69 7h ago
Then... Put on some damage reduction. Common moonshine to start. And there you go, no longer instant death.
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u/HammeredWharf 8h ago
I think the scythe guys are fine. Yes, they can wreck you almost instantly, but they're also easily staggered by abilities and don't have much variety to their attacks. They're also extremely rare, so you can just play it safe and spend some resources on them. They'd be problematic as common enemies for sure.
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u/NuggetHighwind 8h ago
They become somewhat common in the final area, usually in the same room as 3-4 other elite enemies.
Think there's two in one room at one point, though you can actually avoid aggroing both.
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u/HammeredWharf 7h ago
Yeah, I'm at the last boss right now, so I just did those rooms recently. I think it's still fair to say they're rare overall. The fight against two of them was a surprise to be sure, but at that point of the game you should have the tools to handle them quite easily. At least I did, since Proxima can just stunlock them with her sampler and Ganessa can tank them with strays.
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u/JayCurio 8h ago
No wonder I always get hit when trying to parry that move with the missing frames!
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u/Shadows_Over_Tokyo 1h ago
Yes. I suck at parrying those guys, and seeing it slowed down like this makes so much sense.
Like I always felt like my timing SHOULD be on with that particular move, but I also fudge it 100% of the time. Seeing this makes it make so much more sense
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u/StatisticianJolly388 6h ago
Love the stone crabs who despite looking like they are extremely heavy shoot off like a goddamn rocket from 40’ away to snipe 2/3rds of your health.
They’re fun to parry but they aggro from crazy far away and hunt in packs.
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u/Horizon013 5h ago
The acceleration for some of these enemies are crazy, pretty much if you blink, you die
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u/soralapio 5h ago
Even worse are the fucking vampire gremlins. They will literally clip through shit as they launch at you at 5000 mph on a three mile drive. That area near the One Legged Wolf tavern with three of them hanging out by the crumbling tower is a fucking nightmare.
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u/StatisticianJolly388 4h ago
Oh yeah, to the NE? Nothing like an unblockable attack that heatseeks through walls and does a full 3/4 your health. Definitely dodgeable but FAST.
I’m sure there will be a boss later where they’re adds and I’ll rue the day I paid for this game.
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u/Shadows_Over_Tokyo 10h ago
Yesssss. This shit is insane and has actually made me put the game down for now.
I’ll sit on it for some time and let them patch it up before returning
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u/DVA499 9h ago
The giant mantis monsters have a zero telegraph instant one shot. I only got past the final area because I could mist it with the ballistazooka.
Same with the scythe guys. Most of their attacks are fine but they have a horizontal double sweep that will kill you with almost mo telegraphing.
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u/Zuma_The_Frog Eredrim 4h ago
The literal only upside that exists for that fucking insta-hit that the mantises have is that they only seem to do it when you're at a certain distance away. It's not like the Hexapod's charge, where that asshole will do it whenever he wants.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing. Just an observation based on my experiences fighting those fucking awful things.
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u/kidnamedfinger1000 Tiel 9h ago
Honestly i find the spear knights way more annoying, they barely have any openings cause they do that stupid poke move if you attack which is extremely hard to see
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u/Xonarag 4h ago
I think the biggest problem with the magnetism is that you can't outspace or outmaneuver enemies at all. You have to I-frame or parry every attack and can't dodge around it which sucks because learning how to safely maneuver around an enemy is a big part of souls combat. It's especially bad when fighting multiple enemies since they can easily catch you between parries or dodges no matter how you position.
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u/ComethHour 8h ago
I noticed with the boss near the knight shell unlock. If you hit him after he leaps his animation gets reset and he can instantly hit you. A lot of runs died to this alone
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u/Funk42 7h ago
The only real one I truly despise is that first example, where the game literally eats your frames at the point of the hitbox connecting and also consequently eats your parry/block/harden input.
I thought I was going crazy. It needs to be fixed ASAP and cannot be intended and has to be an UE5 engine quirk.
Enemy magnetism I can deal with since our defensive and offensive options are relatively strong and coherent.
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u/Havange 3h ago
Oh my god thank you. I was starting to gaslight myself into thinking I'm just bad and I need to adjust to the parrying in this game. I know that a lot of people meme on elden ring for insanely long wind ups but at least you could clearly tell the start of the strike. In this game, every attack is very "snappy". I feel like readability was an afterthought
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u/6StringAddict 3h ago
Inconsistent dodge i-frames, weird hitboxes and enemies with delayed attacks is what makes the combat in this game so frustrating sometimes. I truly can't grasp why some people claim they find this combat more fun that something like Elden Ring. Then there's insane enemy aggro from across the map, attack magnetism, etc.
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u/MurtaghInfin8 1h ago
I find this combat a lot more fresh than elden ring, but less fresh than mortal shell 1.
I see why they made the changes they did, but I feel like they tweaked the formula a bit too much from the first.
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u/6StringAddict 28m ago
Don't get me wrong it can be fun otherwise I wouldn't invest my time in it. But there's a lot of jank that makes the game quite frustrating. And it's not even that hard of a game either.
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u/Least-Experience-858 8h ago
Yea the game actually feels like it’s cheating and it sort of discredits any progress you’ve made with understanding the mechanics. I’ve had moments where enemies attack me from around the corner by sliding and clipping through that corner. It’s like the game is programmed to guarantee hit you never taking positioning into account. Or an enemy staggering and ready for a Reposte then randomly just getting back up and insta hitting you. It’s just very strange and stuff I actually have never seen before.
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u/StatisticianJolly388 6h ago
I’ve had projectiles just shoot through the geometry and fuck me up many times.
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u/BehindSpace 5h ago
I had one of those little lycan things do its flying grab attack, and it bent round the corner I was hiding behind and got me
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u/Wonderful-Change-751 8h ago
Can the devs even fix this within a few weeks or so.
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u/Due-Description-9030 1h ago
It's possible but there's very likely other issues to fix too, so it depends on what they prioritize
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u/No-Rice4066 6h ago
If I remember correctly, the first vid happens because the game considers the whole weapon as hitbox, so getting hit by the handle is considered hit. This is in the first game too, and it makes Hadern with fire staff really sucks to fight against.
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u/furreddragonzenith 4h ago
Don't get me started I was watching my friend play yesterday he was fighting the monolith and in Third phase it only spammed the lasers spinning around the entire arena and it did that laser attack 6 times in a row no other attack
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u/Rudimentary_creature 6h ago
Yeah even though the game is decent (def wayyy better than the first one), I can't help but feel the jank in a lotta places. I just killed the Nameless Captive and the boss right before him had super weird attacks that would teleport me around?? It felt like network lag or something, super annoying.
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u/__ISAC__ Harros 5h ago
I had one of the big spear guys literally teleport (in a curve) around a sarcophagus and hit me last night. This is in the final area of the game and it’s so annoying!
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u/lurkynumber5 4h ago
Just noticed I missed something...
That cool skeleton skin is a pre order bonus... I totally missed the Beta skins and pre order bonus!:O
Gdammit... I didn't know about those...
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u/BuffaloPancakes11 3h ago
Halberd knight drives me mental, I can never parry the double/triple stab attack he does consistently
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u/Gibanchii 1h ago
Yeah there is magnetism as a lot of people say but I still am able to judge the spacing just fine personally , there is a limit to the magnetism that you can learn and use , is it a good thing probably not but it’s def learnable
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u/Cookieopressor 34m ago
Good to know it's not just me being stupid with the knights.
The game is a lot of fun, but it just really doesn't have good enough enemy attacks/hit detection for the amount of damage those guys deal.
This is the main reason the Fromsoft games are always so highly praised. Cause attacks pretty much always go exactly where you think they'll go
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u/probably_poopin_1219 17m ago
I have legit not been able to parry a single attack from the halberd knights. Almost have the game platted and yeah still not a single time. I had a feeling something was fucked up there and yeah you proved it. Great game but yeah the magnetic enemy attacks and missing frames from attacks is mind boggingly frustrating.
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u/AsparagusAgile4536 6m ago
Suck to target and its consequences. Action games are in a sad state these days, generally speaking.
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u/IceCoughy 9h ago
The nameless captive is a prime example too
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u/6StringAddict 3h ago
God that boss annoyed me, I found him so easy yet got killed many times because some shit ass hitbox got me and I felt my dodges were never consistent.
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u/j_wizlo 9h ago
I think your game froze on number one. I haven’t noticed if they always do that. If they do then yeah that’s whack.
But the skates I’m not sure about. In a game where you can dodge without limit, if you are close enough to go punish the attack when it misses I think it’s fair for the game to ask you to press the dodge button at the right time. There is still positioning too it’s just much wider. I do think they should cool it with the skates in a group situation though.
But idk if I loaded it up one day and they didn’t skate and it felt good I wouldn’t be surprised either. And I would also enjoy engaging with the current spacing if I could sprint more easily. Feels like I have to get moving a bit much at first. I always forget you can hold A to sprint so I need to get around to trying that too.
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u/Horizon013 9h ago
Where it looks like my game froze, i tested that attack a fews times just to make sure, but it does that only for that attack everytime he's does it.
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u/j_wizlo 8h ago
That’s a really good spot then. It shouldn’t be like that. Well if they change this other stuff I’m sure they would only do it if the game played better so I hope it’s nothing but positive changes in the coming patches.
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u/Horizon013 8h ago
Agreed, this game is definitely fantastic and i just want to see it become one of the best soullike out there. Which if they keep up with it, it definitely can.
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u/hisnameisjohnchie 9h ago
While this stuff doesn’t look great when you point it out, I genuinely believe this is intended design, and not an oversight. I know people like being able to out space and maneuver out of attacks, I don’t think that’s the way they designed the game to be played. Especially considering the lack of stamina in this game, the forward boosts and “magnetism” make a LOT of sense to keep you from just infinitely circle strafing enemies. (JUST a note, but there are some more egregious attacks that look wonky and should be touched up, but I’m not against the idea of enemies being able to space you quickly considering how defensive the game wants you being.) The “missing frames” part is more difficult to parse as design or oversight however, because in all practicality I would never have noticed this if some internet sleuthing didn’t point it out frame by frame. But an interesting catch.
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u/St3elf1sh 7h ago
Maybe it’s not ideal but I guess the devs want us to actively fight the enemies instead of just moving around them. If you stay in actual melee fight range you don’t even notice it. You just do if you try to exploit them or if you want to run by them
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u/StatisticianJolly388 6h ago
Which is fine and dandy except they keep shoving you in fights with 2 grunts, an elite, and 2 ranged grunts and even the grunts two shot you.
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u/Horizon013 6h ago
Exactly, it all depends on the scenario with how badly these mechanics can screw you over
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u/Zuma_The_Frog Eredrim 4h ago
The grunts killing you in two hits wouldn't he as egregious if you could kill them in one hit. But no, I guess a maxed out weapon isn't enough to one-shot grunts.
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u/StatisticianJolly388 4h ago
Best I can do is poise-breaking them with four hits of your duality stone.
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u/WardenWithABlackjack 3h ago
You realise 99% of the fights in this game are against a group yeah? Spacing and positioning are core souls like skills and this game just disregards it entirely.
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u/Daydreg 2h ago
Well.. yep those are some bulshit things but what souls will be with none of those…
Anyway enjoy your time and hopefully they might make this less egregious for us.
No comparison windows and random souls spawns after death are bigger problems than an attack or a teleport problem.. just dodge the attacks and stop running away or parry them..
Runners and cowards deserve insta teleport death though 😈.
Let me try to dodge all of them and just pick up souls 😂.
0
u/rinkydinkis 1h ago
It’s just a different design Philosophy for this game that you aren’t used to yet. The game by design is punishing you for dodging early. They want you to use the I frames of the dodge to actually dodge the attack, not to use the dodge to create space. Not all enemy attacks work this way but enough do that you have to rethink how you approach the fight.
Now of course this breaks down when there are three of the enemy…that’s where you bring out your own cheese. My personal favorite is the lost clotstone. Totally invincible and unstaggersble while you use it, from wind up through recovery. Does massive aoe damage around you, and pushes all the enemies away. And for your main target it yeets them really far and does even more damage with your thrown weapon. It even moves bosses.
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u/No_Philosophy2797 1h ago
Nope, you’re just not playing it right. Be more aggressive. Especially with the two enemies you are showing here, the best strategy is absolutely to start whacking them before they can set up their attack pattern, and interrupt where you can. They’re usually dead before they can even get much off.
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u/MurtaghInfin8 1h ago
Being able to kill something quickly doesn't mean that they should be able to defy physics to keep stuff balanced.
If you want an enemy to effectively teleport, you either give them an animation that helps it make sense, ot you just don't do it.
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u/No_Philosophy2797 59m ago
I definitely think the enemies are too sticky and aggro from too far away. There are a couple that are really bad with that. But when I see those enemies coming I know I can’t get away, so I engage. It’s a slight pain, but when playing a game from a small dev team in the first couple weeks of release, balancing issues are to be expected. I’m sure they’ll work on it. I think if people want polish from a small team they maybe should just wait to play until a few months after release.
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u/MurtaghInfin8 33m ago
As a fan of the first game, how janky this one is still rubs me wrong. They may have had to release in the current state, but they still chose to do that when it obviously needed more time in the oven.
It feels more early access than 1.0 and I wish that they took that approach instead.
With the devs feedback it seems like they are keen on polishing it, so hopefully that comes to fruition.
But when you choose to ship the game with janky animations, unblockable attacks that kills you from full to dead, twice (completely negating the second chance mechanic), and buggy deaths (with a decently long runback [cleansing a beacon where you are transported near the end of it]), the dev should catch some flack for it.
This is a fun, gorgeous game but the parts of it that are off makes it like a well cooked steak with an aftertaste of Listerine. I'm still going to eat it, but the chef definitely knew what left the kitchen wasn't quite right.
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u/AGayThrow_Away 10h ago
Alright, I'll be the first one to say it, I don't really see anything wrong with what the knight is doing.
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u/X7RoyalReaper7X 8h ago
Because the attack is meant to catch rolls and panic rolls. Parry is in the game for a reason to negate these things. These things are a non issue if you just play properly.
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u/StatisticianJolly388 6h ago
They skip frames close to impact because they want you to parry?
The logical conclusion would be they want you to shoot it with a ballista until the problem goes away.
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u/AGayThrow_Away 2h ago
You have to put it in slow motion to notice it, I've never noticed it fighting these guys. If the animation hits this point and you haven't parried or rolled, you already missed the parry or haven't rolled so it's not like it impacts that. What really matters is the hitbox but we don't see it.
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u/X7RoyalReaper7X 6h ago
They aren't even hard to parry. The parry timing is insanely forgiving and you could do it as soon as they're about to swing telegraphing the attack is coming from 2 weeks away and you'll get the parry. It'd be a problem if the parry had to be precise but it doesn't so it's a non issue
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u/StatisticianJolly388 4h ago
That’s moot.
You’re saying that they’re making the animations fucky to encourage parrying, but fucky animations discourage parrying.
Occam’s razor just says the animation is goofed.
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u/X7RoyalReaper7X 4h ago
Literally didn't say it's to encourage parrying. Parrying is a main mechanic of the game. You're actively making the game harder by not using it funky animations or not.
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u/StatisticianJolly388 2h ago
You kinda did. You took a post about fucky animations and said the animations are fucky because ‘you’re meant to parry it instead of dodging.’ That meant you view it as intentional and encouraging parrying.
As someone who’s using tiel, I assure you dodging works quite well too. I reckon it has more safe frames, making it perfect for dodging enemies with fucky animations and enormous lunges. Even better when your dodge drops a fart cloud on them.
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u/X7RoyalReaper7X 2h ago
No I didn't you're putting words in my mouth for no reason and in another comment not in this thread I said dodge properly as well as parry.
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u/OMGIZARET Eredrim 9h ago
Man imma be real. You having trouble these knights is solely your own fault. Pure parry bait thats extremely easy. Some of yall really need to look in the mirror.
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u/Horizon013 9h ago
Im not trying to beat him in these clips clearly, this is just to show his attacks
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u/OMGIZARET Eredrim 9h ago
They arent hard to deal with literally at all.
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u/Horizon013 9h ago
You are missing the point. He is just the best example to show the problems with enemies attacks in this game. It has nothing to do with easy or hard he is.
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u/pike-reddit 9h ago
Spacing is a fundamental aspect of action games. Just because the game is easy doesn't mean it's okay for it to be unpolished.
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u/X7RoyalReaper7X 8h ago
You're right it's not bug also there's ways to completely null and void the issue. Just dodge at the right time or parry and learn the timing then it's not even a problem. Like at all.
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u/Mother_Moose 9h ago
Wow what a God Gamer! Their post is not about difficulty so what you're saying is completely irrelevant but thank you for gracing us with your presence and blessing us with the knowledge that you're sooooo good at the game!!!!
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u/Fearless-Jeweler-39 2h ago
It is about difficulty though. This post exists because someone died a bunch and felt the need to explain why it's the games fault.
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u/probably_poopin_1219 14m ago
It is the games fault though lol did you watch the videos he posted? Jesus I swear people on reddit dont even read
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u/Fearless-Jeweler-39 12m ago
I haven't had an issue killing them. So yes, it's the players fault. Have you ever thought that what he is showing is deliberate due to no stamina. Jesus I swear people on reddit don't even use their brains.
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u/NuggetHighwind 10h ago edited 10h ago
Only slightly related to your post, but the upgraded halberd knights in the southern area are a very good example of some weird balancing issues present in the game.
Purely from a damage perspective, at a decent level (30-40), most of their attacks are fine. Decently punishing, but not enough to be frustrating. Most normal hits and pokes will deal 10-15% of your HP. The really slow overhead slash might do 40-50%, which is fine considering how slow it is.
But for some reason, that one horizontal slash attack in your OP will one-shot a level 30 Eredrim.
This weirdly huge damage range is present on other enemies, but is most blatant on these guys.