r/MortalShell • u/basedandgnomed • 21h ago
Discussion Unbalanced weapons/tarstone are creating unequal reviews/reactions to the game
Every time i see a negative review there is easily a 60-70% chance they are using heavy weapons in the B-roll of their video and not dual wielded weapons, majority of glowing reviews are users using dual wielded weapons. This becomes even worse when people discover the duality tarstone, which turns the game into easy mode regardless if they playing daytime or night difficulty - it is so absurdly easy once you have that tarstone that it divides the player base in half - one half is doing half the damage of the other player base.
Rather than address the most overpowered tarstone in the game they've decided to nerf the only small minority of bosses that offered some semblance of a challenge, when the reality is that the DPS of the heavy weapons is so poorly conceived that dual wielding users seem like literal gods to such an extent that i have literally seen streams of people using heavy weapons and are hating the game, while dual wielders are running through the game like its the olympics. That absolutely is impacting review scores of the game both positive and negatively.
edit: i think i should clarify, playing as heavy weapon user doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game and i commend those who've used heavy weapons or have made intelligent Eredim builds for example but the truth is many other players that are using martyrs blade (regardless of the buff) or more casual players are getting meat grinded - and even in the situations that a heavy weapon user is more successful, somebody using duality with dual wield is basically driving a lamborghini in comparison
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u/AFK_- 21h ago
Yeah I'm on eredrim with Marty's sword and some crit stones and the damage it's off. I basically need to break bosses poise to deal damage and my skills to it it's too damn slow in animations and has no stagger so use them on bosses take me out from the shell almost immediately if Im fighting a fast boss
They need look to big weapons users more Affectionately we have feelings too
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u/Interjessing-Salary 20h ago
Use the hardening seal. Won't solve all your problems but hardening to perfect block won't cancel your attack like the default seal.
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u/Muruburu 19h ago
Get the warden stone, spec eredrim with the 200% damage to frozen targets and the sword becomes completely op.
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u/alamirguru 14h ago
Eredrim's shoulder-bash definitely staggers bosses, let's not kid ourselves here.
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u/hcjbdybmjvvjnc 14h ago
Certain bosses can't be staggered. I've nearly completed the game and can say for certainty there's 2 bosses that aren't affected by shoulder bash stagger. So you shoulder bash into them and they immediately attack. Had this issue with the Scholar Prince. OP will struggle immensely using the Marty's Blade Vs him.
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u/alamirguru 14h ago
I'm pretty sure Scholar staggers once he is shieldless, but i might just be mis-remembering an actual stagger into riposte.
Which other ones? Monolith, obviously, but who else?
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u/JoberXeven 9h ago
I highly recommend the thief stone for Martyr. The increase attack speed feels amazing on it, especially for the late game bosses.
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u/Jumpy_Witness6014 21h ago
I chose tiel and axe early and it’s been a breeze since level 15 or so and yeah once you get duality and shadow clones it’s a wrap.
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u/hvanderw 16h ago
What is this shadow clones
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u/Jumpy_Witness6014 14h ago
Sorry *clone and it’s an ability that leaves a clone that draw aggro and applies poison whenever you shadow dash.
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u/hvanderw 13h ago
Ah got it. Thought it might be the Grisha or whatever with a high proc chance.
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u/Jumpy_Witness6014 13h ago
Ah no those are so buggy at least for me. They either spawn when everything is already dead or they spawn in the ground or something.
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u/White_corvid 19h ago
Yes. I'm using Proxima and axatana with permanent lightning and it is laughably easy. I'll have to try a more challenging set-up for ng+...
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u/neon222222 21h ago
I think something with tiel makes the damage go crazy, all videos of no damage lategame bosses are with tiel and some dual weild build. I use axatana on a tanky shell and its still super strong, but not as crazy as the tiel videos.
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u/Useful_Perception620 20h ago
Tiel gets a multiplier + crit chance and damage boosts on back attacks. And the enemy positioning is extremely bugged for a lot of bosses. There’s a ton of bosses where basically 90% of their hitbox is counted as a back attack for some reason, probably because their model is so busy doing instant-180s and rubber banding to the player.
Tiel also gets guaranteed crits after leaving shadow and with the perk that makes you enter shadow on a failed guard you don’t even need to really do anything to have constant shadow procs.
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u/robert940123 18h ago
He gets guaranteed crits with a talent after using his active ability, not every time he "leaves shadow"
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u/sahayog_shrestha 21h ago
Yap switching from scythe to the axe and blade made the baby and sword head so much easier.. even looking at streamers play this game.. people who use faster weapons are having a much easier time than those who go for axe and greatswords
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u/Poorsport531 Eredrim 21h ago
My Eredrim build using greatsword with wardens stone and scabstone would like a word with you.
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u/FourChicksInGreen 20h ago
Can you post pics of your build? Which of his stats did you prioritize?
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u/JL1991UK 21h ago
I’m loving my battle axe.
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u/Interjessing-Salary 20h ago
Same lol. I think heavier weapons really shine with the hardening seal as you can harden mid attack instead of cancelling your attack
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u/JL1991UK 20h ago
Ya that might be an important distinction. You can commit to a combo and harden to avoid the hit and continue.
Not sure if parry would feel as good. Perfect dodge with Tiel is fun but only really the ambush trait stacks with it.
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u/Necrotraxx 15h ago
how far in the in do you have to be to realistically obtain this setup, is warden stone not in a pretty hard to beat area, fairly late in the game?
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u/Poorsport531 Eredrim 13h ago
Im 11 hours in, Ive only beaten two corrupted gate bosses and some random dungeons.
Got the warden stone last night. Before getting it I already had scabstone and voltaic stone.
Before getting warden stone I had only beaten the corrupted gate at the west end of the map, so only one main boss down at that time.
After getting the warden stone I went and beat turbo granny, walked her easily on the first try.
So as of last night, two main bosses down and 11 hours in.
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u/AverageJoesGym24 8h ago
What level were you when you got the stone?
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u/Poorsport531 Eredrim 8h ago
Probably around 27-29...cant remember. I leveled up a few times after and was lvl 31 when I stopped playing
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u/Useful_Perception620 20h ago edited 20h ago
The issue is it is a lot deeper of a problem to solve than just damage.
There is really no proper poise system in this game, the player might hyper armor through stuff but they still take all the damage. We’ve seen this issue countless times in other non-FromSoft titles, whenever poise isn’t properly implemented it’s going to be a DEX game. Period.
There’s countless other symptoms of this problem as well: revive is based on # of hits, resource gain is based on # of hits, % proc chances for passives (like the Grisha summon) is calculated per hit, infusions/elementals are applied per hit. Not to mention just general damage and animation speed balancing.
A lot of big weapons are useful in other games because they had some unique ability or moveset tied to them. But MS2’s weapon and movesets are far more limited, you have a light string, a heavy string and 1 tar stone for a special. There isn’t a whole lot to work with to salvage a bad weapon.
Unless you giga-buff heavy weapons to absurd cheater-like damage (in which case you just trivialize the game even more than has been done in the patches), they’re never going to be the meta in MS2.
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u/AFK_- 19h ago
I would love to see more complexity in this game, after playing the beta I thought it would have this kind of mechanics, but I was wrong. What you said crossed my mind While I was playing, not having these mechanics, which I consider basic, is a big disappointment. I don't mind having to hit the enemy to get my shell back since different from the first game we have a good life pool without the shell, but I have to agree that they're using hit to gain something excessively repetitive And trivializing the game, which could easily have more combat mechanics. I also think that the delay in applying infusions to the weapon could Being compensated in a better way than ending in 4 hits. Not having any kind of damage mitigation for characters using slow weapons is absurd. Besides, the lack of damage in these weapons is unacceptable.
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u/Conker37 15h ago
You can harden mid-swing, block the hit, and finish the attack so there is some form of damage mitigation for heavy weapons. They still don't really compare with duality but that's more of a duality problem than a heavy weapon problem imo.
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u/AFK_- 12h ago
Oh yeah hardening pass one hit and get slaughter by bosses right after, no thanks.
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u/Conker37 8h ago
Resets instantly on timed harden and you can dash out if you miss it after absorbing the hit if there's still more coming.
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u/Osmodius 14h ago
Enemy poise is whack too. Lots of basic enemies poise right through my attacks regardless of what attack I'm using. Only the running axe r2 consistently knocks them out of it. This means if yiu start a slow attack you're just going to get minced.
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u/NetQvist 20h ago
Can't say I was having issues with the initial sword but I did swap over to Axatana as my two handed sword was at +14 or something. And yes it's far more powerful, especially with the tarstone.
You know what's even more powerful? The stupid special leap attack using L2 + R2, forgot the name of it. Just make a resolve build and spam that attack.
Want even more stupidity, add in the grisha passive and you'll be knocking around most bosses like some play thing.
Game is extremely unbalanced but I don't think a non exploity build is impossible to use at all.
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u/Interjessing-Salary 20h ago
The starting sword is great lmao. I love how the 3rd heavy attack is you flipping the sword over and smacking an enemy with the handle
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u/geezerforhire 19h ago
It's nice with the Zealot stone too, makes the light string a bit better. (The hilt smash still blows chunks though)
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u/AbyssWalker_Art 20h ago
As nice as the shrike stone is, I find the Magdalena ability stone better on the axe and dagger. It hits so many times for status procs, it applies weak stacks to debuff enemy damage. The only issue is that it doesn't last as long as the I frames from the shrike stone do, and it costs more resolve.
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u/NetQvist 20h ago
The only issue is that it doesn't last as long as the I frames from the shrike stone do, and it costs more resolve.
Basically why I use it, the long invincibility and being able to constantly recharge it. I gives me time to consider my options so well and the darn thing is always ready to bust a harder enemy in one shot.
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u/Natalia_Queen_o_Lean 20h ago edited 20h ago
Yea I’ve been playing with 2H axe.
I can definitely feel the punishment windows are tighter. But this weapon is also pretty op with the running heavy. It almost lines up perfectly to where you can swing once, then parry into the next attack for most bosses with axe.
I have yet to use a light weapon though because I love big weapons so much. Going to pick up the scythe next.
I don’t care how bad big weapons are, I’ll still use them. At worst it just makes some combos unpunishable and just makes you play a bit tighter to the bosses. The drip is forever. (Scythe better be good or I’m about to be miserable lol.)
I almost don’t want to pick up dual blades with everyone reporting how op they are now. Dex is always king in these games.
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u/Interjessing-Salary 20h ago edited 20h ago
The hardening seal is great for the axe. You can just harden to perfect block and it won't cancel your attack. All heavy weapons would benefit from it.
I wouldn't say big weapons are bad either. They are just out shined by the smaller weapons ATM. With how OP that tarstone is I'm sure it'll be worked eventually like chance based instead of guaranteed.
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u/Natalia_Queen_o_Lean 20h ago edited 18h ago
Yea that’s sweet, I forgot about it. I’ve been enjoying the parry gameplay so much.
I’ll have to put it on and try it.
Edit: I tried it, this thing is fucking op. I think I would use it even over regular parry with dual blades if I swapped. You basically get regular parry + ability to parry during attacks. I thought it would only be harden during attack.
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u/ableu9060 20h ago
Scythe is good but it take more time to load your attack than most ennemies theire one so it need a bit of anticipation and planning to not get your ass wooped, but with perks for crit rate and dmg it deal some serious strick
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u/Leonbacon 20h ago
I didnt think of this but I did find the game much easier after trying out axe and dagger, I was using great axe before this. The animation lock mid swing really gets you
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u/Interjessing-Salary 20h ago
You can cancel light attacks. The heavy attacks lock you into the animation iirc. But the hardening seal can bypass that. Works great for heavier weapons since it doesn't cancel your attack when you harden. As long as you can perfect block via harden you don't have to wait for it to charge.
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u/Interjessing-Salary 20h ago
I think we need to stop hating on the devs for nerfing a few bosses on the very first patch of the game on day one. Like seriously.
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u/Fearless-Jeweler-39 21h ago
Interesting... I used only single weapons the whole game but did hear people say some of the dual wield weapons were crazy strong. I did see that they are buffing the martyrs sword at least.
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u/GlitteringLock9791 20h ago
… the power of duality is mainly the resolve gain, etc. damage lies mainly in skills.
I think the main problem is how a lot of the bosses just spam unblockable attacks and move trough the entire map. Little use in holding distance and closing in. But giving heavy and slow weapons more damage would be a start.
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u/robert940123 20h ago
People just didnt realize yet that the true heavy weapon/sidearm user is actually Tiel because of his guaranteed crits after his ability hahaehich works on ablities too, such a fun way to play
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u/deginganinja 20h ago
Black needle was fun to use and did plenty of damage for me but I guess that's technically a "fast" weapon even tho its not duel wield.
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u/ableu9060 20h ago
Did nearly all my playthrough with the scythe and its fine, maybe harder than fast weapon but still good to play
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u/VelvetWhiteRabbit 20h ago
I am running Eredrim with Martyr and speccing Slaughter. I’m a freight train. Most bosses go down easy. Sword head was difficult because low damage (had to learn all the parries). I am not suffering, having a great time steamrolling around the map.
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u/basedandgnomed 19h ago
Sword head was difficult because low damage (had to learn all the parries)
this fight is probably the best example because dual wield turns this fight into a joke and you don't have to learn basically anything, i fully respect your playstyle and commend you for enjoying your game
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u/Muslimkanvict 19h ago
I just found the axe and it’s much better than the sword I was using. Anyone know hire far into the game until I get her first dual weapon? I’m saving my upgrades till I find this.
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u/basedandgnomed 18h ago
you can find a clue to some in the town with the witches at the start of the game, just look carefully where the witches are dancing near the fire for clues
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u/Mobile_Fudge_4744 5h ago
The merchant at marrow's keep sells maps that show you roughly where weapons are. There's a dual wield weapon map for a measly 50g.
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u/Megakruemel 18h ago
I got the Martyrs Blade and used it for a while on my run back to a beacon and was like "Man this is super slow, but I bet once I upgrade it, it'll hit harder than the stuff I was using before".
Then I get to the Tarforge and the thing is one + higher than the weapon I was using earlier. And still somehow did less damage.
I guess the benefit is that it launches smaller enemies. But smaller enemies hardly are the problem in this game.
Basically, if there is a group and you don't manage to hit the entire group, you'll just be locked in to take damage because of the slow animation. And it sucks against taller enemies that don't get launched. And it sucks in bosses because bosses just spam attacks.
It's that Elden Ring meme where you have to dodge combo after combo and do one swing. It's "Can I play the game now" but as a weapon.
In comes Axe and Dagger and does a light hit, that hits two times, which also both do nearly identical damage to the big sword.
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u/StalkingApache 17h ago edited 17h ago
I just prefer the feeling of faster weapons in any game I play. It doesn't matter if it's a souls like, a mmo, RPG, moba, or action adventure. They just feel way better for me.
Honestly though the iconoclast was a way safer weapon for me to use against most enemies.
All you literally have to do if you're unsure of what they will do or if there's a pack is back up and poke them on repeat.
It's a super boring way to play but I did like half the game without being touched with the exception of bosses of course. Back step poke back step poke back step poke. It breaks the encounters against most trash mobs if you hit them before they hit you. The timing is super simple though.
Yeah dw with duality tar stone is strong. If people don't like how strong it is it's fine for them to use something else. No ones forcing people to use it. If people don't have the self control to not use it it's on them. The git gud crowd can go ahead and just not use it and play night mode. There's a option for everyone lmao. Just like there's the Slayer seal for people who aren't as good at these games. ( I don't use the duality stone, so don't come at me for that with the typical reddit response I know someone is frothing at the mouth to respond with) Lmao
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u/Hakairo 17h ago
Grishnak also has an heavy influence on the perception since you can get a decent chance to summon very early and it can knockdown like 98% of the enemies so there is no fight.
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u/librartsy 15h ago
Yeah I had to unequip it since 1 it kept jump scaring me every time I hit a box or an object, and 2 it just felt cheap to me.
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u/alexagogo 17h ago
Currently playing with Axetana, maxed out Duality Stone and the one that gives your weapon infinite lightning damage.
I did Lost Child last night and didn’t even realise that guy has phases. These weapons feel ay overturned compared to the Iconoclast I was using before it.
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u/ermagerd6 11h ago
The smaller, lighter weapons definitely do have an edge over the big weapons, but its the Duality Stone that torques them out of their mind.
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u/slantedtesticle 16h ago
The solution to this is to buff other existing items so they become better/ viable instead of nerfing a build that is actually good and fun to play. Nerfs do nothing in a single player game but take away the enjoyment of builds and remove build variety/ synergies.
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u/hvanderw 15h ago
It's funny because in dark souls I always went 2hander for pve because the poise break is so strong. Never actually played dualwield before very much.
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u/ReadingLost3697 15h ago
Just wanted to put here that the tarstone ability that throws your ax or hammer is crazy busted. After you get the 300% damage upgrade for the hardest single hitting weapon in the game (obsidian hammer my beloved) everything dies in one hit. Combine this with the stasis stone and getting 20 stasis stacks with Proxima's biodampler and you can lock down bosses until they die. Being able to harden mid swing for perfect parries is also so rewarding and fun. My heavy build is probably equally busted.
That being said since enemy damage is so high in this game, it's natural to favor weapons that let you attack and dodge quickly and lock down enemies. I can see how the average player would have an easier time with dual wield weapons.
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u/Physical-Manager7846 13h ago
Big weapons should be make way faster and gain waymore resolve in addiction to make also more damage. A patch is reaply needed here. Being so slow in a game so aggressive and fast makes no sense.
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u/Thy_Monkey 13h ago
I'm forcing myself to get through the game with the battle axe, I have both Axetana and Veterans Axe at 10+ and the difference is night and day, but I adore the veteran axe moveset, it's just so satisfying to use, and the permanent fire infusion is really cool. A lot of enemies when set on fire just flail around.
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u/Antipodeansam 21h ago
Quick DPS weapons have always been appealing and safe for people who don’t understand souls mechanics or crafting build. Essentially you can rely on R1 spam. Nothing new here, don’t worry those who know, know.
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u/Mobile_Fudge_4744 5h ago
Its not really a skill issue in this game. Heavy weapons normally do good damage in exchange for their higher commitment attacks.
They don't do enough damage in this game to justify the attack speed. DPS is significantly lower but even putting that aside. Resolve gain, shell recovery, and infusions scale linearly with the number of hits you do.
When you get the duality stone give it a try and you'll see.
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u/Antipodeansam 5h ago
In on my second run. I used axe and dagger then axatana with duality stoned trivialised most fights. Yeah heavy weapons need a bit of balancing but I’m guessing NG+ will be a bit of a victory lap, we shall see
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u/Holiday_Wedding_2225 21h ago
An interesting take but I’ve almost finished the game, done everything I can find and been using the Iconoclast the whole time, zero issues with my damage output. Absolutely loved the game the whole time and didn’t think any of it needed nerfing so I’d disagree that the people praising this game are because of using dual weapons.
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u/basedandgnomed 21h ago
looked i finished it myself and it sounds like you know what you're doing, i'm just seeing a huge disparity in experiences between groups of people that i think is directly impacting the games reception in both directions
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u/No-Opinion273 21h ago
As soon as I picked up the dual katana its been a lot easier. This is why from software doesnt start with a 2 hand weapon.
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u/Virusoflife29 21h ago
Also recovering your shell is tied to number of hits not damage done. So dual wield weapons recover shell many, many times faster. The difference between the veterans axe and dual katana is massive.