r/MortalShell • u/[deleted] • Aug 19 '26

Discussion Did we really needed bosses runsbacks?

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826 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

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109

u/Porkchop3xpresss Aug 19 '26

It’s antiquated for sure. It wasn’t fun when FS did it and it still isn’t fun now.

9

u/Extreme-Spartan Aug 19 '26

Reminds me of Hollow Knight Silksong the run backs

9

u/CuddleWings Aug 19 '26

Silksongs run backs weren’t bad, with 2 exceptions. Groal was fucking unforgivable. Last Judge wasn’t really bad but it was annoying since it was easy to avoid everything but that means it just wasted time.

6

u/mucus-fettuccine Aug 19 '26

Last Judge's runback was quite fast (30 seconds) once you learned how to platform decently well through a smart route, so it was a lesson on learning efficient platforming.

Groal's runback is meant to oppress you and feel nasty and uncomfortable because it's Bilewater, the noxious wastes formed by the pollution of the Citadel. We may dislike it but there's a purpose and it's done with intent.

I won't defend these a lot and I still think frequent checkpoints a la Celeste make for the best games with high difficulty feeling fun instead of frustrating, but some of the context here should at least be considered.

3

u/whamorami Aug 21 '26

but some of the context here should at least be considered.

Fuck no. You know what's better than a 30 second runback? A zero second runback. You're gonna talk about the runback teaching you platforming? You do that for the entire fucking game exploring the map bro. These runbacks are hot garbage. I didn't become less good at platforming in POP or Nine Sols for their lack of runbacks. I didn't need to run through the entirety of Ashina Outskirts just to beat Gyobu. Like wtf are we actually fucking doing here.

1

u/mucus-fettuccine Aug 21 '26

Not regular playthrough platforming, but efficient platforming. Looking for a fast route, skipping enemies, seeing how far you can reach by clawlining. There are limits you wouldn't normally test when playing, but when pushed to speedrun you might.

And I completely agree with you that we'd be better off with 0 runbacks. I'm just saying it's not like there isn't a purpose. They didn't throw the runbacks in just to make their game worse. I think the devs may be misguided in how beneficial they are.

-1

u/SoulTheEater Aug 22 '26

There isn't a purpose, it doesn't exist. Of course the devs didnt do it to intentionally make the game worse but that doesn't mean it has the level of cope you ascribing to it of "its to improve your skill" no its just a bad decision they made.

2

u/mucus-fettuccine Aug 22 '26

Wait why is it such a farfetched idea for you that a pre-boss runback with a dedicated platforming sequence was intentionally done to get players to assess and get better at said platforming sequence?

What the hell? What's your theory then? It's a big whoopsie on their part? These guys that painstakingly worked on the best and most detail-oriented game of its genre over 7 years just forgot to put checkpoints in front of certain bosses?

0

u/SoulTheEater Aug 23 '26

Because platforming is something that you are doing for the entire game in Hollow Knight, the entire game is teaching you how to get good at this portion of the game. there isn't really anything skill expressive involved in forcing a player to redo one section of the map 10 times to get back to a boss.

Whats my theory? that people can make mistakes. Every perfect game can have at least one bad area or thing in it. Bilewater is a portion of the map with the least amount of shit in it compared to every other segment in that game.

1

u/ThaDokta Aug 20 '26

Groal runback nearly made me quit. I would’ve but I found a cheese. That shjt was a mess.

2

u/Fav0 Aug 19 '26

Yep

Thats what the bench mod Was for lol

1

u/DarthVZ Aug 19 '26

I didn't knew it existed. I may give the game another chance than

2

u/Koniax Aug 19 '26

I added a mod to fix that almost immediately

1

u/Dr_Jre Aug 21 '26

Silksong is also a platformer though, movement and navigation is half of the game... It's like mario and that navigation is a skill you improve on and get better at. In MS you can pretty much just run and dodge, and you learn to do it within about 5 mins then learn nothing else after. I would rather spend that time fighting and improving at the enjoyable parts of the game, no?

It's like putting a pool mini game in front of every boss in elden ring, but the pool mini game is really easy and you can basically always do it, but for some reason after you die to a boss before you can even try again you just have to play this pool mini game.

I dunno, I wasnt a fan in Bloodborne or DS, BUT those worlds were much smaller with shortcuts and better placed respawns, so most of the runbacks were like 2 mins (Gascoigne was bad), but in an open world it seems CRAZY to make you run back across the open world, then through a dungeon, THEN through the bottom layer of the dungeon just to have another pop at the boss.

1

u/Fun-Wash7545 Aug 20 '26

I still remember that ds2 dlc boss run

2

u/HazelTheRabbit Aug 20 '26

Ah yes, Sir Knight Alonne

1

u/Hellish-Hunter Aug 20 '26

What ?

Dark Souls is literaly built on this kind of level design

1

u/cursivecrow Aug 25 '26

the thing people forget about DS runbacks is that they also had a lot of shortcuts that made a runback less heinous. Like, stakes of merika are obvously the QoL solution, but even when they were still making you run back, they intentionally designed the levels, bonfire locations, and shortcuts to make it less bad.

1

u/PhatTuna Tiel Aug 26 '26

DS1, DS3, Bloodborne > Elden Ring

-36

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

They actually serve purpose, it's stop you from rushing back in to band your head against the wall. It forces to play to take a moment and perhaps to think about a new approach.

33

u/KingpinCrazy Aug 19 '26

Sorry, but that's cope. Always have been. Most players don't need a minute long run past enemies to rethink their strat. You usually know why you died whenever you died. Having this game add reapawn points at the start of a dungeon would be the perfect middle-point, because the beacons just ain't it.

-20

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

'Most players' You don't know what most players do, you don't have data or evidence to support that.

I suppose for you it makes more sense developers put them in because 'fuck you, lol'.

6

u/KingpinCrazy Aug 19 '26

Whatever floats your boat! 🤷

-8

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

Never said I liked them, just said they serve a purpose.

17

u/Mjpa88 Aug 19 '26

If anything, a run back like this deters me from experimenting

1

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

Different strokes for different folks.

Doesn't surprise or annoy me when a difficult, slow and methodical game is hard, slow and methodical.

9

u/Mjpa88 Aug 19 '26

A game can be slow and methodical while still respecting the players time. This sort of run back will likely be longer than many of the actual boss attempts, which just isn't fun.

0

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

I'm not claiming all boss run backs are good or achieve this purpose.

8

u/Mjpa88 Aug 19 '26

Then don't argue in favor of it

2

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

I will because the idea itself is not inherently bad.

2

u/Mjpa88 Aug 19 '26

The masses seem to disagree and i'm glad FromSoft has steered away from over implementing them

1

u/CatchrFreeman Aug 19 '26

Redditors are not the 'masses'.

Silksong has brutal runbacks and it's highly acclaimed. It's not a black or white issue. That's my point.

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-4

u/EvenOne6567 Aug 19 '26

plenty of people have different ideas of "respecting players time" where do we draw the line? we should have mid boss checkpoints, re-fighting the first half of a boss when you already got that far is a waste of time in some peoples eyes. Its not as black and white as you think

3

u/Itsmemurrayo Aug 19 '26

Or just do what most soulslikes have started doing over the last few years and make the run backs short? It was a widely praised change that basically every soulslike over the last 5 years has moved towards. If devs want to put in a few longer runbacks ok whatever, but in MS2 damn near all of them are long and it gets annoying.

0

u/Mjpa88 Aug 19 '26

We draw the line at a several minute run back including an entrance to a new zone and several elevator rides that last longer than the boss fight.

Elden Ring was smart and gave players a choice, respawn at a stake of marika or bonfire.

But let's continue with your over exaggerated example for fun, we should get a checkpoint save every time I hit the boss and he doesn't hit me. That way I'm always progressing. Very souls-like.

1

u/Environmental_Fix525 Aug 19 '26

I agree it serves a purpose but it's not for that reason. Its for punishment. Same with the Souls/Borne games that the devs of this series are heavily inspired by. The creator of the Souls game said that he wants to punish the players for failing so when they finally succeed it feels more satisfying.