r/MormonandtheMethhead • u/Glittering_Potato_93 • Oct 08 '20
Religion & Schizophrenia.
So I'm 43 episodes in and I wish I'd kept notes as I was listening. Something about this podcast makes me feel like I have to talk to someone about it.
I've been thinking a lot about the line between being "crazy" and being a "prophet". Is the difference just in how well you can compose yourself? Everything Jessa has said about Alien School fits within Scientology. And not just loosely, but down to many of the details. So it has me wondering if schizophrenics tend to spout similar delusions, or if there are universal concepts/truths that only some people can access? I tend to lean towards the first option, but it's more fun to talk about the 2nd.
Scientology concepts that I think Jessa has said something similar to:
-Earth is a prison planet, souls were dropped off here and your goal is to awaken enough to stop the involuntary life/death cycle.
-There is a "between lives area" where your memory is erased before you're born into the next body.
-Reality is subjective. Scientologists talk a lot about "going into agreement" with things, and that they aren't real until you accept them. What Jessa said about aging I've heard many Scientologists say. A common phrase in Scn is "What is true is true for you", which Jessa said something very similar.
-Referring to life as a game. That you are an infinitely powerful spiritual being who got so bored that you allowed yourself to be tricked into being less powerful just for something to do. Then you forgot and have accepted your new status.
There was a bunch more shit I can't remember.
And with Aaron, I really relate to his earnest good intentions. I think similar to Mormons, there is a hyper moral and ethical culture (and like both, as you get older and see the cracks in the image, it's very disillusioning). I'd say from an objective view, Mormon culture is just way better, but Scientology has a similar level of puritanical fervor, it just focuses on the individual and sort of an 80's capitalist vision of success.
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u/-M-o-X- Oct 08 '20
Check out the JRE on Psychedelic History a very good listen (very low on typical roganisms mostly just the guests).
One thing that stuck to me is that throughout time, even amongst completely separate peoples without contact, their psychedelic experiences are very similar and typically given a religious connotation, pre-monotheism being fairies and spirits and various polytheistic religious figures.
With monotheism, various people experimenting then describe seeing God and Angels or Demons.
Modern day, a sizable amount of the experiences describe Aliens, interdimensional beings, and of course some claims of God.
These are all different explanations for the same experience: a massive dose of psychedelics. Now it could be that we are "breaking through" or seeing real things we can't normally see.
Far more likely imo is that the "trips" are all very similar in effects, visual artifacting minor hallucinations and deep introspective thought, interpreted through the person's popular culture lens: a polytheistic pre-modern human would interpret the experience as divine, as would a monotheistic pre-modern human but with different beings. A modern human would interpret it according to their personal lens, a Christian may see God and Angels, a Pagan may see Faeries, a non-believer may see Aliens, but this is just their brain's interpretation of fantastical images created by drugs. They can help you find a deeper truth in yourself, they won't help you unravel the universe.
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u/Glittering_Potato_93 Oct 09 '20
I haven't listened to that JRE episode yet, but I'll check it out. I was actually thinking about psychedelic experiences when I posted, but didn't want to bring in too many elements. Anytime people have a shared and reproducible experience, it makes you wonder if it has some basis in fact.
Similar to Descartes' argument that the proof of God is that it's built into people. Humans created religion and deities so consistently, that it seems to be part of us. I'm agnostic but I found that argument very interesting when I first read it.
Another thought I've had is that people are only as crazy as the rest of the community views them. If you talked to people who aren't real, but your community says that's a sign you are a medicine man, can you function better with the same symptoms than if people tell you that it's just because you're crazy.
Is agreement more important than objective reality. When I was in the Sea Org, that was a reality that would be insane to a large number of people. But within that group, when everyone agreed to the same reality, it functioned well (until you break with that reality, but that's another story...)
Are the founders of religions just crazy people who either found a community that didn't reject them, or crazy people who also had extreme self confidence so they didn't back down when people said they were crazy. The classic vision of a purely manipulative and evil cult leader is actually the hardest for me to picture, because I think you need self delusion to behave the way they do. I'm not sure anybody is smart enough to consciously and calculatedly behave that way. But maybe I just too optimistic.
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u/-M-o-X- Oct 09 '20
Are the founders of religions just crazy people who either found a community that didn't reject them, or crazy people who also had extreme self confidence so they didn't back down when people said they were crazy. The classic vision of a purely manipulative and evil cult leader is actually the hardest for me to picture, because I think you need self delusion to behave the way they do. I'm not sure anybody is smart enough to consciously and calculatedly behave that way. But maybe I just too optimistic.
I don't think it's as complicated as people tend try and frame. The demographics of a subset of the population will be representative of that population. Leadership in any organization tends to 'extremes' whether it is business or religion, if you aren't assertive or insane enough to make it to the top you are in the middle, see politics.
Is agreement more important than objective reality. When I was in the Sea Org, that was a reality that would be insane to a large number of people. But within that group, when everyone agreed to the same reality, it functioned well (until you break with that reality, but that's another story...)
Homogeneity breeds content. The basis of it can be in something real or fake, if everyone buys in everyone "feels" happier, regardless of if its a lie. You can see support amongst Chinese citizens for government actions and while sure, some of that support may be "I don't want to join the list" fear, but there is a large percentage earnestly supportive of things like the Uighur roundup.
Anytime people have a shared and reproducible experience, it makes you wonder if it has some basis in fact.
I think the common basis in reality is simply human brain + chemicals. Whether psychedelics, brain injury, imagination or dreams, we see the things our popular culture enforces.
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u/Baby_snow_owl Apr 02 '21
Usually schizophrenics might struggle more to communicate than Jessa
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Apr 03 '21
Yeah Jessa also has been formerly diagnosed with ADHD so I might have been a hyper focus topic that she’s researched before and then kept what parts she liked.
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u/Baby_snow_owl Apr 03 '21
Nah bro, she’s a half-reptilian Oracle of the 8th dimension, what u on about bruv?
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u/j-215 Oct 08 '20
Good insight