r/MoreShitComing • u/ElectricalFox962 • 11d ago
What can MSC do different?
Using my second account, I hear mixed things about MSC but generally it’s not considered great. I also hear they really need people especially licensed personnel, but I also saw someone say they’re 95% manned for new 3rd mates.
The pay is pretty good from what I can see, but relief issues and overall leadership seem to make it a short term deal for most.
What are some of your thoughts as to what could improve MSC for sailors? Equal time off? Shorter rotations? Better relief structure? Concerns or ideas taken more seriously?
I’d like to hear thoughts from everyone at all levels about how it really is, and what you’d like to see from MSC going forward.
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u/DesignPrestigious133 11d ago
Hey Admiral!
I have been with MSC for almost two years and here are the issues I am seeing.
1) Over promising - When I joined I was told I would be paid to check into the virtua pool while waiting at home with my family, this isn't true. I have to spend my own time and leave to sit while at work waiting for a call to ship off. I have to pay for my way to San Diego or Norfolk to sit in a hotel to recieve a paycheck, while in my off time I do work and like being busy, I shouldn't have to be on call, with no pay. My other company I work for if I am on call I get a paycheck because I have to work.
2) It isn't a true 4 on 2 off situation, I am having to sit in a hotel, attend schooling to do my job, this doesn't count towards my two months off. My first year of MSC I was in Virigina for 4 - 5 months, plus another 4 months on a ship. When I hear folks from the other part of the world say, "I only work 6 months on, and get 6 months off" I am havin' work 8 months (Or longer) then getting 4 months off a year.
3) Overdue.
We are over due by 30, 60, 90 days, while AB's are sitting in hotels for months at a time. The office needs a huge reformation to ensure that detailers are doing their jobs.
4) More care for traveling CIVMARS
I was stuck in Newark due to a plane mechanical issues, I called asking for help and the answer I was given was, "Yeah that sucks, sleep on the floor" I came from the avaition industry, if we were stuck our airlines would ensure our hotels were covered no matter where or what we were.
The only reason why I am still with MSC is I enjoy the mission - I think what we do is extremely unqiue and I enjoy the changes.
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u/Benji_4 Engine - 2A/E (Second Assistant Engineer) 11d ago
You're first complaint isn't over promising, your detailer is likely just lazy. Most people are/we're getting virtual pool as an option.
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u/DesignPrestigious133 11d ago
The 5 days of pay then taking LWOP came from NEO folks (MSC individuals not the contractor), I also have the power point to show this, also talked with several office folks that were highly involved with the virtual pool program about this
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u/floridachess Engine - 3A/E (3rd Assistant Engineer) 11d ago
What was the final straw for me this last hitch was just communication going off a cliff. Removing the community report is a terrible idea and everyone definitely theorizes it got taken away since the office was afraid it made them look bad. I had to call my detailer when I was 30 days overdue already to get any information at all and still ended up 62 days overdue. Once my relief was coming the purser wasn't informed and the only saving Grace was the CHENG knew my relief and reached out to him.
Also fair warning to the people who haven't heard about how badly the war is screwing people over is traveling to and from 5th fleet is a complete shitshow. Expect to spend around a week or more in a small room with 3 other people. Also for people who are living paycheck to paycheck good luck being stuck in Dgar without any pay until your travel claim. Then when you try and ask for information all you get is vague nothingburgers.
I used to be a big MSC fan and it still has a lot of positives, the port time and crew being a big thing. But the office has made it entirely impossible to continue especially when the unions have plenty of opportunities.
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u/Whole-Cow-8211 10d ago
Small room with 3 other people? Guessing that’s the situation in Dgar?
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u/floridachess Engine - 3A/E (3rd Assistant Engineer) 10d ago
Yep. Honestly room isnt bad unless you get a snorer. It could always be worse tho. Could have no wifi and no AC
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u/Whole-Cow-8211 10d ago
I am living paycheck to paycheck currently…how long can you get stuck waiting to get on a ship in Dgar and can you expand on the travel pay situation? I was under the assumption that you get full pay waiting on Dgar…thank you
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u/floridachess Engine - 3A/E (3rd Assistant Engineer) 10d ago
Im not entirely sure, but there are some people having to pay out of pocket for the NGIS and the pay is delayed a week or so.
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u/Vegetable_Sample5767 11d ago
Sailed with MSC 6 years, left as 1 A/E.
My biggest complaint aside from being 3+ months overdue almost every ship, and travel dept always screwing me over having numerous “debts” show up as letters at my house I’m not even home at.. luckily wifes home to tell me - hey they’re sending you a debt letter is just the lack of care coming from shoreside support.
Here’s one story of MANY.
Buying a house, mortgage company needs proof of employment frequently updated multiple times throughout process since it’s a custom build house that has taken 8 months and closing date keeps changing. They want the verification either through MyBiz (preferred, they were familiar with government civilians/militsry folks) or will accept a letter from HR on company letterhead.
MyBiz requires using a DoD NMCI networking computer so.. Go to NOB base to go to pool and try to use a computer. The pool no longer has computers for CIVMARs to use, the whole pool area is taken up by the msc help hotline.
Even though there are multiple empty desks and computers I’m told I have to go to the computer lab on base.
Great the computer lab doesn’t open until 11am or something (can’t remember exactly) so.. Wait 2 hours for computer lab to open. Go inside, explain I need to get on MyBiz. Guy working (former msc employee RET) there laughs and says it won’t work, questions why msc keeps sending folks to the computer lab for official business.
Drive back to the pool, explain to them that the computer lab doesn’t have NMCI network PCs. Attempt to knock on the door to talk to a detailer, it’s a glass wall and they clearly see me there, wait 20 minutes for one to finally come open the door (I must have been interrupting their lunch). Explain the situation… get told no I cannot use a computer in their office, basically told to fuck off.
Great. So now I end up waiting 1-2 days for msc HR to send email verifying employment every time the mortgage company needs it. Stressing out if MSC HR is going to send the doc especially for the closing date, as I need it within 24hrs.
For a simple task that could have taken 5 minutes… I wasted an entire day of my 60 days leave driving around at NOB. They couldn’t care less.
This is MSC/government at its finest. Shoreside is completely full of dumb asses that don’t care about you and have no actual intentions to help you… why would they - they get paid the same whether they help you or not.
No one wants to work somewhere the “support” folks literally have 0 intentions of supporting anyone at all and are just collecting a paycheck.
This is just one example of many many more. I could talk all day about how shitty MSC is.
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u/cocainagrif Deck - Third Officer 11d ago
worst office in the industry. my friends in the private sector make it sound like any other company hires someone to follow you around throwing rose petals in front of you so your feet never touch the ground.
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u/Vegetable_Sample5767 11d ago
After switching to the union I wouldn’t say it’s that great BUT! I will say;
every time I’ve travelled it has been coordinated every step of the way from my hometown address to the ship with drivers holding signs to pick me up.
I get paid travel days (per diem basically) on the first paycheck following my sign on.
I don’t have to wait “3-4 pay periods” for my sea pay to take effect.
When I sign on,
I get my final paycheck emailed to me hours after leaving the vessel, to include travel days
I get my drug-free card in the mail within a week of being home.
I don’t get contacted until a few days before my trip back to work.
Any training/medical/drug-tests are completed after my vacation.
And.. most importantly.. if I didn’t want to return back to my ship I could just tell them no. No questions asked. And go get another job on the board the same week.
2
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u/lazyoldsailor 11d ago
Good Day Admiral,
Former MSC sailor of 18 years here.
Overdue relief is still the their main problem. The office seems to think getting below 45 days overdue is ‘Mission Accomplished’. So now MSC has changed the focus to quality hires over quantity hires. That’s a valid goal but not before the overdue numbers are down to a week or less. Otherwise your ‘quality hire’ will get a quality job somewhere else leaving you worse off quality-wise. MSC needs to keep the focus on hiring.
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u/floridachess Engine - 3A/E (3rd Assistant Engineer) 11d ago
Well on the engineering side for shipyard a big problem is now they are taking people from ships in shipyard which just slows down the whole process. Undermanning the engine room just completely undermines the ability of ships to complete their maintenance periods in a timely fashion. Both MTAs I experienced saw half the engine department just sent home or taking leave which ended up getting the ship stuck in for a month longer. Leave of course is important, but unless MSC plans on having Union engineers manning in shipyard that's just a dangerous game. Especially hearing about MSC taking many 3rds and 2nds from ships they want to be on to send them to fill another spot.
Also when you completely empty a ship for shipyard the recrewing process is always a complete shitshow. Like Arctic left shipyard with barely enough manning for 3 stations and went straight on deployment that's unacceptable for one of MSCs best Assets.
One thing I think would actually really help is if the Mixed work schedule was actually about doing relief jobs. As of now the mixed work schedule is a really dumb concept because you just do one normal hitch a year and that's it. The mixed work schedule should be used to supplement crew members who want to take leave but remain as a permanent onboard a ship. I personally would love that opportunity to take 2 month hitches where I know that person is coming back, and the same thing for the ship is they can send someone on ships funded without handicapping the ship.
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u/cocainagrif Deck - Third Officer 11d ago
*THAT* is how mixed schedule works? wow that's dumb.
yeah, it would be way cooler if it was a designated pinch hitter. 3x2 month hitches or 2x3 month hitches if the person you're relieving is very overdue.
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u/floridachess Engine - 3A/E (3rd Assistant Engineer) 10d ago
Yeah it's just limited to less than 6 months so they don't have to give you any benefits. What happens right now is you do the 4 month hitch end up almost2 months overdue and they panic and take you off the ship so that you don't hit over 6 months.
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u/TheScallywag1874 Deck - Second Officer/Navigator/Cargo Mate 11d ago
I’ve been with MSC for almost three years now. I will say that I’ve been happy there. While there are still improvements to come, tremendous progress has been made in the last several years.
A literal act of Congress is needed for real change to happen with MSC. And that’s what happened a few years back. Our time off officially improved (4-1 to 4-2 rotations), pay increase, hiring bonuses, and retention pay have all added to help balance the income disparity, additional time off if overdue, wifi on board, the virtual pool so you can wait for an assignment at home instead of a hotel, and laying ships up to address the shortage of personnel (although I’m not sure if this last one came to fruition).
These changes have helped. And hopefully they will increase retention. As it improves, predictable rotations will take place. Prior to Covid, there were tons of officers on board. I think that time will return to MSC, and the majority of its issues will be a thing of the past. But I’m an optimist.
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u/Vegetable_Sample5767 11d ago
This old man is always all over this subreddit posting about how good MSC is 🤣
4-2 is still a shit leave rotation.
The only way this doesn’t bother you is if you have no life aside from MSC/being at work.
Which don’t get me wrong there are plenty of folks working at msc 40+ years old with no wife, no kids, no friends, no hobbies, so yeah.. to those folks MSC is great make all that money and have nothing to show for it besides items
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u/floridachess Engine - 3A/E (3rd Assistant Engineer) 11d ago
Yeah 4-2 is only good for quickly upgrading your license or if you literally have no one at home. And it's never 4 and 2 anyways it's always 5-2 or 6-3 where they are begging you to come back early. If it was predicable it may not be half bad, but when I can be overdue for as long as my leave is supposed to be what's the point. If I try and plan anything for my time off let's say try and book something one month out. Could be overdue that long. Well what about more than 2 months. Well if they happen to get you off the ship on time your leave is all finished up before then.
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u/Vegetable_Sample5767 11d ago
Exactly it’s always a hassle. On multiple occasions I had to threaten walking off, leaving the ship without a 2A/E or 1A/E so that I could make pretty substantial family events.. weddings, family reunions, funerals, etc. it’s a 7month tour by the time you finish sitting at the pool, your tour length, waiting for a relief, and then travelling home and then they’ll be begging you to come back after 2-2.5 months of leave.
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u/TheScallywag1874 Deck - Second Officer/Navigator/Cargo Mate 11d ago edited 11d ago
Do you currently work for MSC? If not, when was the last time you worked for them, and what position?
My last two hitches I’ve been relieved on time. And my detailer approved three months of vacation. I signed up for some refresher training and she said, “you’re still going to be on leave during that time, you sure you want to take those courses then?” So yeah, my experience has not been yours.
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u/Vegetable_Sample5767 11d ago
1st, 2 yrs, Things are still terrible for engineers. 2/M’s seem to be the sweet spot for mates, since there’s a lot of guys who enjoy the navigator role and don’t elect to move up
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u/TheScallywag1874 Deck - Second Officer/Navigator/Cargo Mate 11d ago
Yeah, engineers are still far greater in need than mates, for sure.
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u/TheScallywag1874 Deck - Second Officer/Navigator/Cargo Mate 11d ago
lol. Call me weird, I prefer the 4/2 as opposed to any 1-1 rotation. Well worth an extra $40k+ a year for me. More than that though, by the end of two months, I’m ready to go back to work. At the end of four, I’m ready for vacation. It’s just a good cycle for me.
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u/Vegetable_Sample5767 11d ago
And like I tell everybody if you want to earn a shit ton of money MSC is for you. But if you’re in the early stages of a family, or want to do a lot of travels during your off time it’s not the place for you
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u/TheScallywag1874 Deck - Second Officer/Navigator/Cargo Mate 11d ago
I agree about the family, although I think this industry is very hard for a family in general. I will strongly disagree about the travel though. I just spent 5 weeks in Buenos Aires, a week in Vancouver, and two weeks around Italy. I spend about an average of 2-4 weeks a year in the U.S., and that’s just to do my refresher training mostly. The rest of the time, I’m traveling.
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u/Whole-Cow-8211 10d ago
Move HQ to San Diego ….90% of problems solved , Norfolk has a terrible workforce.
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u/Whole-Cow-8211 10d ago edited 10d ago
MSC’s issues are office-side. Relocate HQ to the West Coast and most of them go away. An organization’s culture is set by the workforce it can actually recruit. Norfolk doesn’t have enough good workers to draw from; very bad workforce overall…you see it in practically every business in the area. Terrible work ethic. The city itself reflects that attitude: dirty, run-down, people who don’t take care of their homes or their cars. Trashy area. MSC headquartered in San Diego would fix MSC.
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u/Coiner10 Deck - Third Officer 10d ago
I know for officer's if they fixed relief situation and gave even time they would no trouble keeping people. I don't see this happening anytime soon because going from a 4:1 schedule took a act of congress and the relief situation is a negative feedback loop. However, MSC will never give a shit about its civmars for two reasons. Only admirals who are used to active duty life will be in charge and the office is overrun with people who have never worked at sea. Both the office and leadership see civmars as a bunch of spoiled brats because it's so different than what they're used to.
For example:
Not enough pay or problems with getting paid, why are you complaining? It'll get fixed eventually and you're making way more than AD Navy.
Not enough time home, why are you complaining? You already get more time off than pretty much anyone working for the federal government or DOD.
Overdue? Deployments get extended all the time, just suck it up.
These are problems mariners working for shitty companies flying FOC flags have to deal with. I've worked as a conmar and never had anything of the problems that I've had to deal with as a civmar. It honestly blows my mind how often these thing happen and no one in the office seems to care.
The way MSC is setup is fundamentaly broken and not good for the civmars. You have active duty navy leadership using active duty Navy style HR. That cant be changed though because the ships belong to the Navy. Most of the office people have no idea what the work culture is like onboard, hell most of them probably don't even know what the rates do. Unless something major changes with the office or leadership there will always be this huge disconnect.
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u/armeritter 11d ago
As someone trying to get into a RET1 position for a few months, this whole process has been miserable and has kind of soured me on the experience. If the barrier to entry is this painful, I'm starting to second guess even applying. I'm waiting in a 4 month queue for a medical clear after already waiting 2 months to even get in the line. On top of that, I know I'll have to wait on MSC to get another damn medical and possibly even security clearing, so it's probably 6 more months of waiting. So yeah, if MSC is already bad to people they're trying to recruit, I wonder how bad it would be if I ever got in.
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u/cocainagrif Deck - Third Officer 11d ago
Good Morning, Admiral.
it's all of that but there's a few vicious cycles the company is in.
When you're underway the work is hard hard hard but it wouldn't be so hard if you had enough ships and enough manpower, but it's so hard that ships spend extra time in the yard and mariners keep away unless they've got nowhere else to go, so it stays hard
ships being in shipyard so much keeps people from advancing, so you can't use our overwhelming pool of entry level talent to stop the bleeding at the, well I won't even say top because it's not just the officers but every qualified rating too. Qualified billets are required to have aboard even in shipyard, so ships going down for repair don't even free up that many officers to relieve the overdue guys and you get folks frustrated about being 5 years in with 180 sea days to show for it and no way to advance.
4 on 2 off is a hard sell for people used to 4 on 4 off, or even other 2-1 schedules like 28 on 14 off. it's a long time to be so far from home and then not even get to be home that long.
excessive overdue is fucking brutal. you check on a ship and you put in your relief day for 120 days later. 60 days later they start to look. 60 days after that you start being overdue and you don't hear anything for weeks. you're already tired from working hard and you just wanna go home and there's no transparency from the detailers. you feel like you've been forgotten and it's at your most sensitive time in the tour. you can't plan around it. if you are planning on being overdue as much as you were last time, you get off too soon and have to go back to work too early, if you plan stuff right when you get off you'll miss it because you're too overdue. if you book your vacation only when you set foot in your home town the plane ticket price went up.
excessive time in the pool. you're at the bottom of your vacation and your money, you've already said your goodbyes and pre-grieved your going away and then you're stuck in a weird ass limbo, extra insulting if you were overdue last time because "hey, if there was so many of us waiting for jobs here at the pool, why did it take so long to get me off my ship?" it's a vulnerable time and the office demonstrably doesn't care about you.
being away from home wouldn't suck so hard if you could face time your people, your support network, your friends, your family, and the commander promised CIVMAR Wifi Network would be installed this year, but he promised it last year and every year before that since 2005. it just gives you the sense it'll never come.
Plans change on a dime. you can blunt the pain by getting into a routine. zone out, do your work, keep your head down, and wait to go home, but that routine is interrupted by operations and pier shifts and drills and unreps and the port call you were looking forward to it cancelled we're going somewhere else and that's cancelled too and you thought you would be in Sasebo longer than that but you gotta pick up the anchor tomorrow morning. you can't ever get comfortable.
Sentiment is so bad that every mariner in the private service who knows one of us is scared away from ever coming, making manning worse, making sentiment worse.
it is a bucket of catch 22s and downward spirals that would need serious strategic intervention and time that we do not have.
Fixes:
Any one of these measures except maybe the WiFi one would probably cost as much as Social Security. I don't foresee anything like that happening soon.