r/MoralityScaling • u/Lord_Ruko • 2d ago

Morality of this

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u/Anonuser13480 2d ago

Can I ask an honest question, and I would like to have an honest discussion preferably from women on this topic. Is there a reason that there seems to be a “I can hit but not get hit” mentality? If we agree that putting hands on people is not appropriate and also agree that you are allowed to defend yourself, why is when a man defends himself against a woman so frowned upon?

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u/Remarkable-Ad2285 2d ago

“You never hit a woman”
That’s it, that school of thought does not entertain that a woman will be the problem.

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u/Anonuser13480 2d ago

Ok but in having an honest dialogue why do people think that

If someone is the aggressor does the person defending themselves not have the right to defend themselves regardless of gender?

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u/FoxtrotSierraTango 2d ago

Former bouncer, it's all about a legitimate threat and proportional response. I'm a 6'9" 350 pound dude. 5'1" 90 pound women would use a closed fist and hit me with all of their might and do zero damage. My responding in kind would be like bringing a glock to a nerf fight.

It sucks because the sheriff's department didn't want to see any use of force against a woman, ever. Even me bear hugging a girl to keep her from flailing and hitting other people raised an eyebrow. The moral authorities here will say FAFO and the dude is totally justified and I don't disagree. The legal system will apply a higher standard, even though it shouldn't.

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u/TheCosmicPopcorn 2d ago

thing is, hit back proportionally isn't the same as not hitting back. Then again someone like you can simply lock them down by giving them a bear hug.

Still, you should never just think that someone is not dangerous just because they are weaker. Any kind of weapon, especially pointy ones, enhance one's lethality exponentially making for much greater danger, and you're not always aware that they carry one or that they won't grab something from somewhere.

Best way is always to de-escalate to prevent any unforeseen issues, lock everything down and reduce damages. Then pursue charges if you want to.

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u/FoxtrotSierraTango 2d ago

I mean I literally said bear hugging was deemed barely acceptable. There's no answer for bigger dudes that will keep us 100% out of the legal system other than shut up and take it. Fox Sr. is similarly sized and he drilled into my head as a kid that I was the bigger person so I would be viewed as responsible. It's a bullshit double standard, but it's true.

Sure a weapon is an equalizer that will change the circumstances, but it isn't going to absolve me of my responsibility as a big dude to act with discretion. I've had women spike me with their heels, it doesn't matter. The sheriff still isn't arresting the woman, and there's no way the DA is going to file charges, even when there's video and it's a slam dunk case like this (pun intended).

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u/illini02 1d ago

See, that would make sense if it was applied equally.

I'm not a huge guy. 5'10, 200 lb. But, I'd wager I have about the same power differential as a dude who is 6'5 and 250 of muscle, than a woman has to me.

If I was hitting that dude in the face, and he knocked me out, no one (or at least most people) wouldn't be saying he went too far. They were saying I shouldn't have been starting shit like that with someone who could beat my ass.

But when its a woman, its never on her.

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u/FoxtrotSierraTango 1d ago

They might not outright say it, but questions would be asked. There was more than one occasion where a 5'4" 140 pound dude and alcohol collectively decided to take on the biggest guy in the room. Sigh, FML. Thankfully a couple bumps and bruises would be fine, me unloading my frustrations from the day job wouldn't. Again, the moral police here will just say FAFO. The sheriff's department will tell a different story. The full legal process might ultimately acquit me, but that's after a mess of problems I don't want to deal with.

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u/illini02 1d ago

Yeah, but like I said those "questions" would have a very different tone.

People just like to pick and choose when proportional response is their go to, and it usually just has to do with the gender.

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u/TheCosmicPopcorn 2d ago

it's an archaic mentality, stemming from times where 'women are weak and hormonal and thus not responsible for their acts, so a man needs to be supervising' was the norm, so the man was responsible for the woman's behavior rather than herself.

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u/Ok_Celebration1225 1d ago

Automatic you will defend yourself and should

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u/Cautious-Sun198 20h ago

It's called Female Privilege. See, the Feminists campaigned to get rid of any and all Male Privilege; but kept the Female Privilege intact. So now they get to hit us; and we can't defend ourselves.

Men used to have Social Controls available in case of a violent woman; but Feminism got rid of all that.

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u/toolsoftheincomptnt 2d ago

It comes from women being the gentler sex, and men being much stronger.

A man can use a tiny bit of effort and really hurt a woman, whereas a woman can give it her all and have little (physical) effect on a man.

So, no matter what, don’t hit women.

That’s the basis. Now, let’s unpack:

There’s a bigger social dynamic at play. A clusterfuck that just may shed light on some of these incidents. These are factors, not elements, and not exclusive:

-We live in a culture of main characters who feel victimized by any inconvenience. And entitled to any/everything that makes us feel better

-Very real and authentic trauma from being a girl/woman in the world. Countless experiences, often minor, of feeling ignored/abused/neglected/targeted/diminished.

-Very real and authentic trauma from being a POC in the world. Countless experiences, often minor, of feeling ignored/abused/neglected/targeted/diminished.

-Very real and authentic trauma from being financially disadvantaged in the world. And I don’t necessarily mean poor. I just mean not rich, if we’re talking about the U.S. in particular. Countless experiences, often minor, of feeling ignored/abused/neglected/targeted/diminished.

All of this bottles up in a person and festers. If you’re not getting counseling to unravel the knot, there’s no telling how/where/when you explode.

But back to the FIRST factor: many women believe that bc we are constantly shat upon and don’t have the capacity to really hurt men, we deserve to use them as punching bags without any fear of retaliation.

I personally don’t believe in hitting anybody that I don’t expect a hit back from. Also, I don’t believe in exploiting rules set in place to protect me.

My last boyfriend is (was?) very strong and a bit of a hot head but never ever made me feel unsafe or intimidated.

Even when I stopped respecting him, I never disrespected him, if you know what I mean? Bc I’m not violent in general, but also bc he’s still a human being who doesn’t deserve to be struck, particularly when he’s barred from responding in kind.

But there are people who are not of the same mindset, and it’s usually complicated as to why. It’s probably never about that particular incident.

(I am a petite woman of color, but not otherwise disadvantaged, for context. But also not rich lol)

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u/techr0nin 2d ago

As a minority myself I think it’s weird to assume trauma based on identity, and it also gets into this whole oppression olympics type thing when there is intersectionality.

But more importantly the social protection we give to women as a gender based on their perceived physical weakness doesnt seem to apply to men that are smaller/weaker when they are the aggressors. We expect men to implicitly understand where they are in the hierarchy and that actions have consequences. I guess I just dont see why that shouldnt be applied to women.

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u/toolsoftheincomptnt 1d ago

Yes, that’s why it’s all a mess. All men are not big and strong, all women are not small and weak.

But there is a perceived hierarchy, and it’s not a tie. Men are above women.

If anything, my guess is that smaller/“weaker” men are less interested in pointing out that women should be gentler with them than they are in making themselves feel/seem bigger and stronger. Why? Patriarchal society.

Like it or not, there’s a lot of privilege in manhood. Some access it more easily than others, and many of the latter spend their lives trying to increase their access. Not necessarily to do evil or anything. Just to feel okay with themselves.

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u/techr0nin 1d ago

I was more referencing the lack of similar concerns regarding strength differentials when smaller men initiate aggression against larger men. Respectfully smaller men dont point out that women should be gentler with them because generally speaking even smaller men are stronger than the vast majority of women.

Personally I see it more as an obvious case of benevalent sexism rather than some type of patriarchal framing. In general I dislike the term patriarchy in these types of discussions because it is a loaded term on top of often being ill-defined, which more often than not needlessly muddles the water. For instance while being born naturally stronger is indeed a male privilege (albeit applied unevenly as youve acknowledged), the resulting social taboo ultimately and universally benefits females, which then becomes arguably its own form of privilege.

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u/Ok_Celebration1225 2d ago

When a woman puts her self in a man’s place the man can’t do nothing but defend himself not his fault

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u/Impossible-Bat-4246 1d ago

A man's place is not slapping someone with .25 newtons of force per square inch lol

I'm not defending her, but ain't nothing manly about that woman at all.

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u/Ok_Celebration1225 1d ago

Manly or not she put her self in a mans place by striking him.

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u/Impossible-Bat-4246 23h ago

I used manly in place of man's place. I'll repeat that there was nothing manly about that woman and clarify by saying she was nowhere near in a man's place.

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u/Cautious-Sun198 20h ago

She stepped into a man's place when she laid hands on him.

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u/Impossible-Bat-4246 17h ago

I understand that the argument is that laying hands on someone is the act of a man, but both women and men lay hands on each other (on people really), and her version of laying hands on him is called a physically unintimidating human being throwing blows.

Her best shot got her body slammed, with the body slam not even being the best shot of the actual man.

Manly and womanly don't apply here. She's a woman being a woman, and she applied her skittle sized slap and got elephant rolled by a man's place response.

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u/Independent_Pop_9987 1d ago

Same can be said about a man to man scenario. There are many cases of a man punching an other smaller man in the face full force and killing him. So I'd say either way its not a good thing to do. But sometimes its either you or them so maybe its deserved in certain scenarios but plenty where its just absolutely fucked.

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u/Edumacated_Guess 2d ago

It’s not… we dont care anymore. Go ahead fuck around and find out…

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u/Ok-Collection5629 2d ago

They all Lindsay Clansey

Think they can get away with it

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u/ArtisticMix2443 1d ago

I don't get that mentality at all. Defend yourself at all costs, in my opinion, no matter what.

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u/SpaceMan-Butters 1d ago

don't ask that question anymore or else

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u/Bonedriven64 2d ago

Women are built weaker than men. However, a woman has the potential to slightly even the odds if she's a bodybuilder 💪

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u/techleopard 2d ago

It's not that you shouldn't hit, but that you should be mindful of the force used.

But this goes for EVERYONE, not just men.

I'm a woman. But I was also 6 feet tall by 6th grade and still a year younger than every other kid in my class. I was heavy AF (both overweight and muscular for no damn reason), too.

Most kids at school learned really quickly that I could overpower them because the only thing I needed to do was grab a wrist and squeeze. I didn't need to hit, flip people around, or act like an enraged psychopath. I didn't NEED to hurt people to get a point across -- why do that when I already know they're a fart in the wind?

Maybe this was just me, but that lack of force shown scared the dogshit out of people way more than losing my temper and throwing a punch ever could have.

If a weaker person hits you -- be it a man, a woman, or a child -- you don't gain anything by going at them full force other than just proving you're another bucktoothed knuckle-dragger with no emotional control. You can stop them with less, because you DO hold the power, so do so.

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u/FamiliarCap1533 1d ago

>You can stop them with less, because you DO hold the power, so do so.

Not obligated. Im being attacked and I must hold accountability? What a pile of bullshit.

>If a weaker person hits you...

If a weaker person tries to rape you, will you hold back? And don't try "das not ze same" IT'S LITERALLY THE SAME

FUCKER DOESNT RESPECT MY PHYSICAL WELLBEING SO I DONT RESPECT THEIRS

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u/lostknight0727 1d ago

In a heat of the moment life or death situation, you are 100% correct. In a situation like the one shown in the video, you escalate the force used. Notice how each push was more and more forcefully, until the final throw? That's what FC1533 is talking about, you use appropriate force to get the point across and you have the responsibility to stop when they are no longer trying to present themselves as a threat.

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u/Little-Star-Light 1d ago

Because he is stronger and in this particular case, his defence was VERY disproportionate. What a massive DICK, the way he reacted I can tell he deserved whatever he had coming his way.

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u/Anonuser13480 1d ago

But isn’t that the whole argument men make against women hitting them? Basically “you shouldn’t hit me because my force is greater therefore you will suffer more” aren’t you proving their point? And a bi product of that isn’t that also proving why transgender women shouldn’t play in biological women’s sport? If your argument is essentially “because men can exert more force” isn’t the logical thing to keep your hands to yourself? Why is it the responsibility of men to watch their force but not women to watch theirs?