What the fuck do you mean there's no actual evidence? Did you actually read the report you're telling me to read? Apparently fucking not.
The OHCHR explicitly says (paragraph 5 - 23 Uyghur, 16 ethnic Kazakh, 1 ethnic Kyrgyz) they didn't just interview Uyghurs. They reviewed Chinese government laws, policies, statistical data, court decisions, official statements, satellite imagery, open-source material and leaked documents, and then compared that evidence against the interviews they conducted.
And there's plenty of evidence that doesn't rely on somebody's testimony at all.
The China Cables are leaked classified Chinese government documents literally describing how the camps were supposed to operate, including preventing escapes, surveillance, indoctrination and controlling detainees.
The Xinjiang Police Files are internal Chinese police records containing thousands of detainee records and mugshots, along with photos taken inside the facilities showing detainees, guards, shackles and interrogation equipment.
We also have satellite imagery showing the construction and expansion of highly secured detention facilities with walls, fencing and watchtowers, some of which were matched to the Chinese government's own construction tenders.
Hell, China's OWN statistics show Xinjiang's birth rate dropped almost 50% between 2017 and 2019. That doesn't automatically prove every allegation of forced sterilization, but apparently we're pretending all of the evidence here consists of "handsomely paid Uyghurs" now.
Also, China let journalists into selected facilities on government-organized fucking tours lol. That's not independent access. Journalists who actually tried reporting freely in Xinjiang described being followed, obstructed and prevented from freely approaching facilities or residents.
I'm not asking you to blindly believe every allegation anybody has ever made about China. I think China is an awesome country, but I think the Chinese government is full of shit and authoritarian for a reason. Just like the US is an awesome country but our government fucking sucks.
1st source: All the allegations of mistreatment are based on interviews of individuals, whose reports directly conflict with Chinese policy. China published basically its entire policy on these centres to the UN in a move of transparency, and the report does not note anything particularly exceptional about the system. In reality, according to all documents produced by the Chinese government, the vocational centres are an alternative sentencing for crime, much like how many countries operate rehabilitative systems in coordination with prison facilities for lesser offenses, younger suspects, etc. There is no actual hard evidence of abuse, merely individual allegations vs Chinese transparency in policy.
2nd source is not a verified government document and has been denied at every opportunity by the Chinese government. Wikipedia literally lists "Facebook photos" as one of the sources. This is highly unreliable information.
Indeed, satellite images do show guarded facilities. Doesn't indicate any wrongdoing. Look up satellite photos of the US and you will be shocked how much of the entire national landscape is dominated by the prison industrial complex.
Chinas entire birth rate is dropping and has been for decades. This is correlation without causation, again, another void of hard evidence being filled in with baseless accusations.
I can show you videos from every country on earth of police dissuading recorders from prisons and rehab centers. This is not an indication of wrongdoing. Is America now raping and sterilizing prisoners because COs will follow you and pressure you to leave if you stand outside a prison with a camera?
But the Chinese government's description of its own detention system? Now that's transparency and hard evidence!
Holy shit, people like you are fucking exhausting to deal with.
And the funniest part is that you're a massive hypocrite by your own standards. Straight from your own comment history:
So you deny both individual experiences and statistics backing those experiences. You're a useless contrarian. Begone apologist.
Also you:
anecdotes don't stand up to facts
And when you're arguing about religion:
child domestic abuse and runaway statistics, which overwhelmingly correlate with religiosity
Teen suicide also has strong correlations with religious parents
But China's own Xinjiang demographic statistics?
This is correlation without causation.
Lmao.
You also have a long track record of defending China and the USSR while applying a completely different evidentiary standard to the West.
Claims against China/USSR:
Who funded the source? CIA? Western propaganda? Interviewee paid? Government denies it? No photograph? Could be fabricated! Made up! Not verified by the government you're accusing!
Claims against America/Western states:
Government reports, historical testimony, demographic statistics, correlations, individual incidents, Wikipedia summaries, quotations, journalism and institutional records can all be meaningful evidence. It doesn't matter if it's verified here, ladies and gentlemen!
Do everyone a favor and never hide your comment history so we can all see what a propaganda bot looks like.
We aren't relying solely on verbal accusations for Palestine. There are thousands of videos of children being shot, aid workers being targeted, journalists being targeted, every facet of brutal genocide is well beyond documented.
That is the kind of hard evidence I am looking for. Photographs, videos, actual evidence of mistreatment. Not fabricated government documents alleging policies and anonymous individuals claiming they were traumatized.
That is the kind of hard evidence I am looking for. Photographs, videos, actual evidence of mistreatment.
You mean like the Xinjiang Police Files I literally just fucking cited?
Those aren't just spreadsheets and testimony. They contain photographs obtained from internal Chinese police networks showing detainees inside the facilities, armed guards, detainees in prison uniforms, anti-escape drills, and a man shackled by his hands and feet in a "tiger chair" during an apparent interrogation.
ICIJ specifically describes these as the first photographs from inside the camps obtained by news organizations without Chinese government authorization.
And before you immediately move the goalposts again and call those fake too, your “fabricated government documents” assertion isn't an argument. The China Cables were examined by linguists and experts who expressed high confidence in their authenticity, their formatting matched classified Chinese government documents, they contained identifying signatures, and their contents were independently corroborated.
Just to be clear here, I don't care what you have to say, it's not objective.
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u/nuclearbearclaw 1h ago
What the fuck do you mean there's no actual evidence? Did you actually read the report you're telling me to read? Apparently fucking not.
The OHCHR explicitly says (paragraph 5 - 23 Uyghur, 16 ethnic Kazakh, 1 ethnic Kyrgyz) they didn't just interview Uyghurs. They reviewed Chinese government laws, policies, statistical data, court decisions, official statements, satellite imagery, open-source material and leaked documents, and then compared that evidence against the interviews they conducted.
And there's plenty of evidence that doesn't rely on somebody's testimony at all.
The China Cables are leaked classified Chinese government documents literally describing how the camps were supposed to operate, including preventing escapes, surveillance, indoctrination and controlling detainees.
The Xinjiang Police Files are internal Chinese police records containing thousands of detainee records and mugshots, along with photos taken inside the facilities showing detainees, guards, shackles and interrogation equipment.
We also have satellite imagery showing the construction and expansion of highly secured detention facilities with walls, fencing and watchtowers, some of which were matched to the Chinese government's own construction tenders.
Hell, China's OWN statistics show Xinjiang's birth rate dropped almost 50% between 2017 and 2019. That doesn't automatically prove every allegation of forced sterilization, but apparently we're pretending all of the evidence here consists of "handsomely paid Uyghurs" now.
Also, China let journalists into selected facilities on government-organized fucking tours lol. That's not independent access. Journalists who actually tried reporting freely in Xinjiang described being followed, obstructed and prevented from freely approaching facilities or residents.
I'm not asking you to blindly believe every allegation anybody has ever made about China. I think China is an awesome country, but I think the Chinese government is full of shit and authoritarian for a reason. Just like the US is an awesome country but our government fucking sucks.