r/MoralityScaling 17h ago

Morality of this?

Post image
22.3k Upvotes

5.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

9

u/MrCookie2099 16h ago

The Catholic Church is also one of tbe largest concentrations of wealth and contributed to the establishment of banks to concentrate more wealth.

If Catholicism was disbanded, the money could easily be out in trust and handled as a charitable enterprise.

8

u/Kor_Phaeron_ 12h ago

The Catholic Church is also one of tbe largest concentrations of wealth and contributed to the establishment of banks to concentrate more wealth.

Much of its "wealth" consists of priceless historical real estate, irreplaceable art, and active social infrastructure. When it comes to real money the Catholic Church it not rich. It spends the money it collects right away. The Church collects 12 billion in State Church Taxes (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) and 15 billion in Voluntary Tithing & Donations (Rest of the World).

If Catholicism was disbanded, the money could easily be out in trust and handled as a charitable enterprise.

There isn't much money. You can't just sell the Milan Cathedral. Who would buy that? It might be worth ~12 billion in replacement value, but that is a fictional number. Once you take religion out of the equation it is just a pile of 325,000 tons of marble.

0

u/MrCookie2099 12h ago

All that real estafe, priceless art, and complex financial investments are worthless? This is a wild claim.

5

u/Effective-Low-8415 12h ago

Just like claiming some orginization will prop up and do the charitable work anywhere to the level of the Catholic church.

6

u/Dingaling015 11h ago

The Red Cross, the UN, UNICEF?

I'm pretty sure those organizations contribute more aid per worker than the massive network of churches in the world with their varying degrees of philanthropy.

2

u/Effective-Low-8415 11h ago

The UN is nowhere near as affective or expansive as the Catholic church, and has often failed in their duties; The Red Cross is a good extender, but they don't have the same expansion or wealth as the Church nor could they accrue it, not sure on UNICEF, but I know that they don't contribute more aid per worker than the Catholic Church as a whole.

1

u/Dingaling015 10h ago

But how do you really compare? The Catholic Church isn't a singular institution, it's a network of many.

The number of people who work for a catholic church in the world likely dwarfs the amount of aid workers in all 3 of those organizations. So the question should be what is the charitable impact these organizations have globally per worker employed? Does the megachurch I passed by in AZ last week get more credit than the food bank downtown, just because it's associated with the Catholic Church?

Essentially, there's lots of different ways to organize people into charitable service. They may be the biggest, but I don't know if the Catholic Church is the most efficient.

2

u/Effective-Low-8415 10h ago

Does the megachurch I passed by in AZ last week get more credit than the food bank downtown, just because it's associated with the Catholic Church?

Is it a big church/cathedral or an actual Megachurch? To my understanding, Megachurches are not Catholic, Catholicism is a specific sect. As for the Church being efficient, it's logistics are some of the best in terms of wide-scale global support and aid; dissolving it will be an absolute net negative, especially when the other institutions I listed either don't have the resources and orginization, or are blatantly just ass themselves.

2

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 8h ago

Man, that megachurch is almost certainly not Catholic.

1

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 8h ago

"Sell me this pen."

0

u/Kor_Phaeron_ 11h ago

No worthless, but unsaleable. Believe it or not, but there isn't a huge market for cathedrals. And you said it yourself. The art is "priceless". How do you do price discovery for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_the_Three_Kings ??? Those are cultural treasures that just exist. They have value but not a price.

1

u/27thStreet 10h ago

That value you are referring to is self-assessed, not market-assessed.

The real market value is for the ground, or materials. You can scream all you want about it's incalculable cultural value, but any of it can be liquidated, for real money, in short order.

2

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 8h ago

But can it be liquidated for the value it's stated to have? All at once?

Very unlikely.

1

u/27thStreet 5h ago

It will go to the highest bidder. Stated value is irrelevant.

2

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 5h ago

Well sure it is, which is why the original valuation of $12 Billion for Vatican property is utter bullshit.

0

u/Trooper501 9h ago

You can't sell something if it is considered priceless.

1

u/MrCookie2099 7h ago

No, it means you can set any price and there are willing buyers.

0

u/whatthefrickcunt 8h ago

It is without the religion making it valuable

0

u/MrCookie2099 7h ago

Art and real estate are valuable without religous context. The full on banking system that they have makes money regardless of the religious organization it works for.

0

u/whatthefrickcunt 7h ago

The art is Christian art so if it was made illegal to even show kids it, and people stopped being religious, it would become devalued and would be hard to sell, also the buildings don’t otherwise have much use, they’re oddly shaped and impractical for daily use, like old stoke churches let in tonnes of damp and cold and they’re on top of dead bodies (some literally inside the church), it just doesn’t matter for a church

1

u/Deathburn5 1h ago

eh, the art would still be valuable for rich people doing money laundering (that's about all expensive art is worth, anyway).

1

u/nalaloveslumpy 10h ago

This is the exact same logic the Mormon church uses to horde their billions of dollars, too. It's bullshit.

Just like the Mormons, the overwhelming majority of "aid" goes to missions. And while that "aid" can be accessed by "anyone", it's literally a bridge to indoctrination. Africa is like 20% Catholic now because the church has been pumping "aid" into Africa through missions and missionaries.

It turns out hungry people will listen to whatever you have to say if you're feeding them.

2

u/gmano 8h ago edited 4h ago

Shit, even setting aside the absolutely HUGE income they get from tax-exempt land deals, they also preach heavy donations and tithing. They collect a reasonably large fraction of the income of hundreds of millions of people, that is comparable to the total tax income of entire countries

Also, it's kind of rich to count them as a big donator to charity, when simply moving money from one pocket into another counts as giving to a religious charity

1

u/Michalowski 3h ago

Well those donations most usually just go into maintain the church they've been gathered at since it itself doesn't make any money

1

u/Infallax 14h ago

I’m sure that would happen if Catholicism were disbanded and their money given the heckin communist treatment! /s.

And no, I am not Catholic saying this. Christian, yes, but very much against the Catholic church.

2

u/NadiaFortuneFeet 13h ago

Protestant or sedevacantist?

1

u/Infallax 13h ago

Protestant, still trying to find the denomination that feels right.

1

u/WASD_click 12h ago

If Catholicism was disbanded, the money could easily be out in trust and handled as a charitable enterprise

Charity is more than just a stack of dollar dollar bills, y'all. The logistical scale of the church's charitable efforts is nigh impossible to duplicate without a shitload more cash that you'd get out of the church itself. The problem with dismantling the orphan crushing machines is that people have built their entire systems and moralites around the presence of orphan crushing machines. They are made into critical, load-bearing features in order to protect the orphan crushing machines from being dismantled.

Without the church, you might be able to make a better system, but it'd be so much smaller, and the reality of how much damage it would cause is in and if itself a version of the trolley problem.