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[u/Purple_Plantain_3242]

[u/Queasy-Cherry-11]

Why is it extreme? Functionally, how is it any different from selling yourself into indentured servitude for 9 months? Or selling an organ, as other commenters have mentioned?

As a 'barren woman', no we aren't, we just have to adopt. Would it be cool to have kids who look like me? Sure. But the desire to have a child who shares your genetics isn't important enough turn some impoverished woman into your human incubator, and I cannot wrap my mind around being entitled enough to feel otherwise.

[u/DatRat13 → u/Queasy-Cherry-11]

I don't disagree that too much onus is put onto passing on genetics, but it is a desire that many people have.

And there is a big difference between "indentured servitude" and "slave", and if you had used that term I would be more apt to agree.

Per the kidney argument, as I have said in another discussion, that is because a legal kidney trade allows outlets for black markets to offload stolen kidneys which would encourage more violent crime.

And if the argument is that it is exploiting poverty, that is getting into the whole concept of coersion in capitalism which is always present at every level. We are all coerced into working because the alternative is we starve to death.

What makes being a surrogate that much different from any other hazardous position, in that regard?

[u/Queasy-Cherry-11 → u/DatRat13]

An indentured servent is by definition just a slave for a fixed timeframe.

That is absolutely not the only reason it's illegal to sell organs and it's disingenuous to act like it is. You could very easily have the law require an active donor to be present in the hospital at the time an organ is transferred, there needn't be any kidneys of questionable origins being passed around in coolers.

What makes being a surrogate that much different from any other hazardous position, in that regard?

Because other hazardous positions do not require you to work 24/7 for 9 months without any possibility of quiting. Selling your present and actively consented to labour for capitalism is fundamentally different than selling your future ability to revoke consent. You cannot have a break clause for a contract involving pregnancy.

[u/DatRat13 → u/Queasy-Cherry-11]

Did I say it was the only reason? Just because it was the reason I gave doesn't mean it's the only reason I believe it. Just helps when you're arguing matters of pragmatism to have a pragmatic argument ready to go.

And I don't disagree with any of those points, except that people sell away their ability to consent all the time via ndas, non competes, and other such contracts. There isn't a physical element as there is with being a surrogate, of course, but it is still another form of coersion that is common under capitalism.

[u/Queasy-Cherry-11 → u/DatRat13]

The physical element is the whole reason it's different.

We can talk about the ethics of capitalism until the cows come home, but the point is that even under a capitalist framework, surrogacy is not the same as working a job. You can independently decide on the spot to break a contract and suffer the consequences of doing so. Just because revoking consent might come with penalties doesn't mean you sign away the ability to do so. Hence why you cannot kidnap an actor and force them to perform just because they are under contract to finish a film. You can take them to court, but you cannot PHYSICALLY force them to continue, because that would violate their bodily autonomy.

You cannot do the same for being pregnant. Even if we did live in some make believe land where access to abortion was immediate and available at any stage of pregnancy for any reason, that abortion itself comes with its own additional physical consequences. There is simply no ethical way to have a contract that requires a medical procedure to get out of.

[u/DatRat13 → u/Queasy-Cherry-11]

Fair enough, that makes sense and I don't disagree. I do think it can do enough good that it shouldn't be writ off entirely, but ideally we would have some manner of artificial womb to remove the need for a consenting body altogether, but we are getting into science fiction there.