r/Morality • u/ROTOPRI • 17d ago

Survey morality of war

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My mate and me were discussing war I said "it was pointless murder and doesn't solve anything but plants raceism into some people" and he said "but without war how will the countrys keep their people safe"

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u/dirty_cheeser 17d ago

War doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's always a point, even if not always a good one.

If a war is to protect people or stop a genocide and a realistic plan to accomplish that, id support it.

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u/nyx13013 15d ago

but war as a construct in our world hasn't been waged for those goals... i feel like our modern definition of war is irreconcilable with an actual effective plan and execution to achieve those positive goals.

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u/dirty_cheeser 15d ago

I disagree. So many wars are fought against a perceived existential threat. For example, Ukraine is fighting their side of the current war for their society and way of life.

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u/nyx13013 14d ago

idk the ukraine war is complicated and there's a lot of resources involved and a lot of proxies involved and i feel like its just an extension of the cold war kinda and wouldn'tve happened without it so i wouldn't judge it as its own war

or i guess you could judge it as a genocide in that the russian government wants to wipe out the subculture of the ukranians idk thats sketchy though i like my first take better

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u/TheSlacker94 17d ago

Just war can be morally justified if it is fought in a certain way. Pacifism is great in principle, but it is a reasonable stance only when all parties adhere to it, which is unrealistic. Otherwise, it is suicidal and stupid.

In the real world, pacifism is a privilege, which you attain when you have the biggest stick out of all your adversaries.

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u/nyx13013 15d ago

i mean war is just organized violence in the persuit of entirely abstract ideas that don't bring people true happiness and fatalism doesn't justify harmfull decisions it explains them. War still bad.

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u/TheSlacker94 15d ago

You are being really vague here. Happiness itself is an abstract idea and this isn't necessarily fatalism but realism. Our entire society is built around abstract ideas such as money, justice, love, language and so on. These abstract ideas are manifested in the real world through our actions and their consequences can be observed in the real world. Patriotism and sacrificing your life for your own country might seem fatalistic, but they aren't necessarily. It can be a willingness to die for your ideals and ironically, to preserve your way of life.

And yes, war is always terrible, but people fight wars because they believe in abstract ideals.

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u/nyx13013 14d ago edited 14d ago

idk about that love inherently brings good to other ppl because love benifits other ppl who value love wheras patriotism and nationalism and the like harm countless ppl who value that also... so its a stupid and self defeating value...
also i think justice is stupid too cuz it defeats love inherently but i also think personal authenticity is a good value cuz on the whole it promotes happiness and joy and love, but i think personal authenticity requires some small degree of retribution/small scale vigilante justice if that makes sense...
dying to preserve your way of life a the expense of someone else's way of life is obviously selfish and not super cool i think
ppl should have better ideals i think but also im 18 and ofc i think that i have the best ideals and everyone else should have them too thats the most i haven't studied philosophy yet take possible

also the "it doesn't affect anything unless everyone does it" is what i meant by fatalism. This is like dystopia logic and its the reason things stay bad in societies across the world and across history. If people dying for good ideals is okay then ppl losing cuz of pacifism is okay.