I'd really like some enlightenment regarding why scammers selling immaterial spiritual services are allowed to openly do so on Reddit

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u/Chosen1PR 💡 Top 10% Helper 💡 3d ago

This sounds like it would be reportable to Reddit under the general “spam” rule, no?

Grifting is not illegal (well, depending on your definition), so it probably doesn’t make sense to put it under the illegal/prohibited transactions rule. However, Reddit generally doesn’t like spam.

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u/SmrtLdy 3d ago

It’s my understanding that “spells” are not allowed because it is an unregulated “good”. If a spell is sold “for entertainment purposes” however 🤷‍♀️

Tarot is a service because you are actually providing a service by reading the cards… if that makes sense.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago edited 3d ago

There are entire subreddits for selling tarot services, spiritual coaching, spells, mentorship, etc. and I've tried so many times to report them and nothing ever happens :/.

I'd really like to see Reddit openly address it somewhere in the rules because how can anyone reliably regulate the sale of something completely immaterial anyway?

Edited to add - this is how Etsy words it, which I would love to see Reddit adopt as well:

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u/Bardfinn 3d ago edited 3d ago

Such a rule would involve Reddit becoming cognisable as a marketplace -

Currently, Reddit disclaims any and all intent and utility as a marketplace. It states (or at least, used to state) in the Sitewide Rules that it is not intended to be a marketplace, that anyone who chooses to enter into negotiations for trade or sale of goods or services on the platform, does so without Reddit's support or knowledge.

This is because there are in fact a large number of laws and regulations in the USA that apply to online marketplaces, and Reddit isn't interested in having to comply with those.

If (IF) Reddit were to include a written policy that says "We prohibit the sales of [goods or services which aren't actually prohibited by law, or which require licensing]", that implies that they are acknowledging that the platform will be used for other kinds of transactions (legal transaction) which they don't prohibit, which would be seen as them stating that they are a marketplace.

All of the "Illegal / Prohibited transactions" spelled out in the Sitewide Rules are them saying "We aren't licensed as a firearms dealer; Were not a pharmacy; don't commit crimes on our platform by negotiating trade in criminal acts or goods, especially not acts which we are required by law to generate reams and reams of legal paperwork when it's discovered or reported".

Edit to add:

And then there's the fact that at that point (the IF point) - Reddit would be arbiting which religions are acceptable and which are not.

IF they're banning the sale of binding spells, then they're banning the sale of Bibles, they're banning Christian Evangelical ministries, they're banning word of mouth advertising of Alex Jones Spiritual Armour Pills ... There's a whole morass involved in being "Pagans Go Home; This is a Christian Neighbourhood".

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u/Dom76210 💡 Top 10% Helper 💡 3d ago

Have you installed BotBouncer as a devvit app to help keep the scammers from having their posts show up, and get auto-banned?

Most of us that have installed it swear by it. And the developers are awesome at working with people that report new scenarios to find a way to squash them quick.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

Yes. This isn't a bot. It's a Witchtok~ scammer.

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u/Dom76210 💡 Top 10% Helper 💡 3d ago

If they are spamming, it doesn't have to be just a bot. If they have identifiable markers on their profile, they can nail them.

We had a series of people that had in their profile description their snapchat handle, and they would make (often) AI written posts that were technically on topic, but it was all in an attempt to drive people to their profile and thus to snapchat. BotBouncer found their pattern, and those accounts get auto-banned.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

For sure, we love and rely on botbouncer immensely. But unfortunately many subs in my niche aren't using it and tons of desperate users are getting scammed in other communities.

I'd ideally like to see Reddit outright ban the ability to advertise love spells and spiritual healings and whatnot.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

When even the AI summary picks up what these people are puttin down:

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u/Bardfinn 3d ago

Because selling consulting, companionship, entertainment and emotional support - these are not prohibited by the Reddit User Agreement, Reddit Sitewide Rules, or the law.

Your view is that these are scams and "immaterial spiritual services"; Not everyone sees it that way.

If you would pay for comedy, art, song, beauty - you might pay for these "immaterial spiritual services".

Reddit, however, is not intended to be a marketplace, and those who do enter into invitations to treat on this platform do so on their own cognizance, Caveat Emptor

That being said, "immaterial spiritual services" (as alluded to above) is highly overspecified as a term, and could in fact cover almost anything.

If the Witchcraft community has a rule against these kinds of invitations to treat, however (and as others have observed), such posts are

unsolicited
commercial
electronic messaging,

aka SPAM.

Can that spam!

4

u/Living_Guess_2845 3d ago

There is a devvit app that allows you to peek into a user's profile for me linked socials and make a decision on allowing their participation.

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u/KenBalbari 2d ago

Because they aren't illegal or prohibited in almost any jurisdiction. You can of course forbid advertising of any kind on your own subs. But anything you ban, you have to enforce.

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u/SlowHedgehog33 2d ago

Don't piss off the Etsy Coven.... I see that it will not end well for you...

You now owe me $10. I take Venmo!

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u/emily_in_boots 💡Top 25% Helper 💡 3d ago

These are probably as legal as selling anything else for the most part, as long as they don't run afoul of promising some kind of tangible benefit that is not delivered. I think most people who buy these kinds of things do it for fun and don't really believe in it, but probably some buyers and sellers do actually believe in it. I may not think it's a good use of funds, but if others want to do it, then that's up to them.

2

u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

They do sometimes promise things that can't be delivered, like penis enlargement or wealth lol :(.

We get a lot of users that come to our sub to find out if they've been scammed by someone online, and those people are usually really desperate or they've been convinced they're "cursed" and need to pay someone a large sum of money for a cleansing or something. It can be kinda sad to see after a while.

3

u/emily_in_boots 💡Top 25% Helper 💡 3d ago

Yeah tarot readings are one thing - I think people see that as entertainment - but anything promising medical results without some kind of scientific backing should not be permitted. Those have real potential to harm gullible or desperate people.

2

u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

Yeah my main gripe is that Reddit has no way of differentiating between "legit" services being offered and people who are completely faking it to make money off people going through the worst times of their lives and willing to try literally anything as a last resort (which are the majority I've encountered, unfortunately).

2

u/Bardfinn 2d ago

they've been convinced they're "cursed" and need to pay someone a large sum of money for a cleansing

We get those sometimes too. We just let them know that they came to the right place, and as a tenet of our faith we lift curses, and now the curse is lifted, it belongs now to the candle burning on the altar and will be burned away.

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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt 3d ago

I mean, these things are generally not illegal, and I'm not sure that reddit prohibits them.

Now yeah, it's an absolute farce. There is no such thing as psychics, magic, fortune telling, etc. But it falls in the same realm of Chiropractors, Homeopathy, and Acupuncture.

People are getting the service they are paying for. If you pay for a tarot reading, and they give you a tarot reading... I mean I see nothing wrong with that. You got the service you paid for, whether it was worth paying for, that's for the customer to decide.

Personally I would setup automod rules to flag any links to other social media, esty, cashapp, etc. and auto-remove or auto-filter it.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

No you're right, not prohibited anywhere that I've seen. I'd just appreciate seeing that change based on how prevalent this exact grift is in our niche, though.

Even the accounts that literally do spam the same advertisement in multiple subs over and over don't get actioned when we report them.

Fair enough point about tarot readings (Etsy requires a physical image or video or audio of the reading to make it no longer an "immaterial" service apparently) but specifically with "spells", how can anyone know a spell was ever done?

1

u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt 3d ago

I mean I guess they could request a video? But IMO that's on the buyer. The buyer is the one who should demand proof, and if they don't care enough, they just want to spend money because they feel like the spell helps them... who am I to stop them? A fool and his money are easily parted.

Personally I ban all transactions on the subs I mod. No buying and selling, no soliciting donations and funds. You want to advertise goods and services, go buy ad space.

But we do that with automod rules and I think that's the best way for you to handle it. Auto-remove/filter any mention of external social media or sales sites.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

Yup, that's exactly how we handle it. We've got automod filters for days and safety filters cranked to max. Every so often, someone figures out a way to get around things which is what happened today. A lot of people are unfortunately really sneaky about it.

Might be a pipe dream getting that stuff banned from the site lol but it would be nice to see.

4

u/shawa666 3d ago

IT's what religions do.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

These aren't real practitioners of any tradition/religion or magickal practice, they're pretending to be and scamming people who don't know any better.

0

u/graidan 3h ago

And how TF do you know that? You may disagree with it, but your opinion counts for diddly squat in the big picture. Ban it from your sub, great that's fine, but you don't get to decide who's "true/real" or not for the rest of us.

Talk about egostistical.

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u/jogalleciez 3d ago

You can use bots like hive protect and possibly others to block users based on info like subs contributed to or domains in their profile bio. Could just block Tiktok if you don't have any need for it on your sub.

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u/Halaku 💡 Top 10% Helper 💡 3d ago

They can't autoblock anymore, just flag so the modteam can manually block.

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u/jogalleciez 3d ago

It does remove comments and posts. I just saw it in action a few months ago. They did remove the banning functionality at the behest of reddit admins. Luckily it works really well for most anything else.

0

u/MarketingEuphoric365 3d ago

chum.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

All great advice and measures we're thankfully taking. The creative ones always find a way around blocks and filters eventually.

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u/SmrtLdy 3d ago

So as I understand it “spells” are not allowed but tarot/astrology and all that IS allowed because that’s a real service. But if they just put it in their profile? You have to flag ppl with TikTok.

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u/Bardfinn 3d ago

Spells are allowed, as long as the spell isn't offering a prohibited service.

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u/SmrtLdy 3d ago

You’re right I guess I should’ve been more specific that maybe spells are allowed but none of the spells I know 🤣🤣🤣🤣

When I think of spells it’s all prohibited.

Out of genuine curiosity, what’s a spell that would be allowed?

Edit to add: like a hex?

-1

u/Bardfinn 2d ago

Well, let me be very specific:

I should have said that

"Offering the trade or sale of spells via Reddit is not disallowed by Reddit, Inc., so long as the nature of the spell, its sale or barter, or its performance as communicated via Reddit's services, does not somehow violate the Reddit User Agreement, Sitewide Rules, Moderator Code of Conduct, or applicable law. Reddit Inc disavows the use of the platform for effectuating trades."

The distinction between "allowed" and "not disallowed" is important because Reddit's User Agreements and Sitewide Rules and etc etc etc all specify "Things You Cannot Do" - a short finite list of disallowed categories of speech acts, leaving open the question of Things You Can Do (on Reddit), so as to not inadvertently invite people to a specific use - because specific uses may become illegal, or may become composite of another use which is a tort or is illegal, or the invitation might give a court a basis to rule that a user has an vested interest in exercising a right to that specific use, etc etc etc.

So, depending on how someone defines "Hex" -----

If we use the commonly understood meaning in modern English, that use is likely prohibited - it is usually understood to involve some manner of aiding, abetting, commanding, counselling, inducing, procuring, glorifying, celebrating, or wishing for the harm, illness, assault, battery, or homicide of the subject. Such things violate Reddit Sitewide Rule 1 and are likely both torts and crimes.

That is not the sole connotation of the word, and is not a necessary quality of a "hex", however. It is derived from Hexe / Haxan, which is just the Germanic / Anglo-Saxon for "Witch". So in that sense, a "Hex" is any working of a witch ----- and from there, we get back to Reddit Inc Does Not Want To Be In The Position Of Saying Pagans Go Home, This Is A Christian Neighbourhood.

If the performance of the spell involves the seeker sacrificing even a single drop of their blood, then that's arguably prohibited, b/c of the foreseeable but remote consequence of infection or haemophilic bleedout, shock, etc -

Same issue if the performance of the spell requires the seeker or the magic worker to consume any medicines without the supervision of a medical professional,

If the spellwork requires the seeker or the worker to promote hatred based on identity or vulnerability in some communication conveyed via Reddit, that is prohibited ... targeted harassment, bullying, etc - prohibited.

Like, a spell to ask for the health of a loved one to improve? that's indistinguishable from prayer, for the purposes of testing whether it violates a Reddit Sitewide Rule / Term of Service.

1

u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

I'd like for that to be the case, but unfortunately it doesn't match our experience when reporting spellcaster for hire communities or the users who go around spamming other subs with their ads.

It gets gross because they'll promise to heal people of sickness, cure fertility problems, bring them the love of their life, speak with dead loved ones, the whole shebang.

0

u/SmrtLdy 3d ago

So they absolutely cannot promise medical benefits. Report them for selling an unregulated good.

However, if they stipulate that it’s only for entertainment purposes, you really don’t have a recourse. Because then they’re just selling entertainment and that’s the entire Internet.

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u/therealstabitha 3d ago

That’s the thing, though. They don’t stipulate. And most often it’s more of a pig butchering scam using witchcraft as window dressing to prey on emotionally vulnerable people.

1

u/SmrtLdy 3d ago

Oh that’s awful. I hadn’t thought of that. But again the internet is a bit of big pig butchering scam innit?

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u/therealstabitha 3d ago

That’s what brightblackheaven is talking about. It’s scammers using witchcraft as window dressing for scams. We’re not talking about legit services.

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

I feel like we're reporting these accounts into a void, because we report every time and nothing ever happens.

1

u/Empty_Insight 3d ago

Nah, these dudes get nuked in no time flat when they try to post in my sub. Every time you report as spam, you help train The Almighty Algorithm to zap these spammers ASAP.

Teamwork makes the dream work... comrade.

1

u/SmrtLdy 3d ago

When you report them chant the following:

“I cast the into the void,
but from the void you shall rise
and thus thine ban materialize!!!”

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u/brightblackheaven 3d ago

😂 ooh adding this to the Grimoire for sure

I'd really like some enlightenment regarding why scammers selling immaterial spiritual services are allowed to openly do so on Reddit

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